I have been going back and forth the last several weeks on optics and I now think I have it narrowed down to these two. I started with a budget of $500 or less and now in typical ARFcom fashion, I have managed to double my budget.

I am looking at the Trijicon TA01NSN and the Trijicon Accupoint 1.25-4X24 TR21-3 (German #4 + DOT). The Accupoint is obviously much cheaper, but I really like the ACOG. My questions are:

1. What makes the ACOG worth the extra expense? ( looking for something I might have overlooked)
2. Are there any issues with the amber fiber optics? (as opposed to red/green)
3. Why can't you see the fiber optics (on top) on the TA01 like other ACOG's?
4. Any common issues with the German #4? (I am not sure I like the standard triangle)
5. Any concerns or issues known with the TA01? (eye relief, etc...)

This will be mounted on a KAC SR-15 that will be my main "do it all" rifle.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

First off, in your price range, the TR21 isn't even worthy of consideration when the TR24 is in every way superior to the TR21 except weight.



Depending your use, I would highly suggest a TR24. Fixed eye relief throughout the zoom range, fiber optic and tritium makes it day and night illuminated, adjustable cover for the fiber optic so you can adjust the amount of illumination in daylight, and BAC capable.

1. It's a combat optic and will be priced accordingly.  The AccuPoint was originally designed as a hunting scope and therefore, does not have a 'used-by-the-MIL' premium attached to it. On a related note, someone mentioned that the AccuPoints are tested to the same rigorous standards as the ACOG so they are probably very similar in terms of durability.

2. Amber is a little bit brighter than red. Color will be personal preference although I've noticed that green is very easy to see in low-light conditions compared to Red.

3. The TA01 doesn't have BAC (i.e. illuminated reticule)

4. The German No. 4 dot is very small so it is difficult to see in low-light conditions.  However, since the dot is smaller, it makes precision shooting easier IMO.  Definitely go with the Amber dot, if you go with the German No. 4 as the other colors are difficult to see using this reticule.

5. For the price, I'd do a variable scope vs. fixed magnification if I were you.

Good luck

.25 x must mean the world to you, however for me, TR-21 is the bargin in the market!

eta...i started out my life as a red fan and perhaps still am, but i finally have grown into the amber triangle i own and do bel. its the best all purpose color for this glass.

I gave multiple reasons why the 24 is superior and .25x is not the only thing. Especially when he is considering a $1000 ACOG.

LOL....and that is why i said .25x matters the world to you....not trying to bust balls around here....wow, maybe arfcom is too serious for me these days, my apologies

eta...you should expect some blowback when you pronounce your opinions so boldly

"tr-21 isn't even worthy"....come on dude the company is the same for both....one is the next generation to the other....its not time to throw away all the tr21s on planet earth!

Thanks for the replies. I like the features of both of them, but I can get the ACOG for almost the same price as the Accupoint and a Larue mount. Within a few bucks. I did not know the TA01 did not have dual illumination. I see now what the difference is. My concern with the Accupoint is that it seems alot like a red dot to me. I would like something that offers a little longer range, which is why I was looking at the German #4. I thought the smaller dot would offer better accuracy over 200 yards. I admit, I really do not know a lot about the ACOG, but EVERYONE seems to really rave about them. Please keep the info coming.

OP...at fleebay i just looked...almost side by side were the tr21 new and the tr 24 new.....if $300 merits 1x rather than 1.25x than there you go....me not so much

A 1-4x scope is a compromise between having the speed of a red dot and having a little bit of reach. ACOGS, 1-4X optics, and red dots are for "combat" accuracy like hitting person size targets out to about 300 yards. If you are looking for precision shooting, an ACOG, TR24, or TR21 are NOT the optics to be looking at. I'm not saying that you can't shoot at long ranges with these optics, but if you are looking fro long range, there are better choices.





I still don't get it, so you will have to explain that to me. The .25x is not the only difference between the 24 and 21. Oh yeah and these are tech forums. They are supposed to be serious.

Did i miss where you showed evidence to why the  24 buries the 21 with EMPIRICAL DATA AND FACTS......and i am serious, i am not arrogant and so i dont take MYSELF serious

I've owned and shot both extensively(ACOGNSN and TR21).

I still have the TR21, the ACOG has long been gone. While I do feel the ACOG will stand up to more abuse, I realized I'm not in the middle of a war zone, I went with versatility. What I did like about the ACOGNSN was the reticule. I wish Trijicon could find a way to incorporate a similar reticule into the accupoint series. What I really didn't like was the fixed 4x. Inside 100yrs targets were slow to acquire and difficult to track if moving quickly...the trade off was precision.

Right now I'm using two different setups...either a TR21 in a LaRue mount or a Aimpoint M2/Aimpoint Magnifier. As soon as I can get some trigger time behind a TR24 I'll know if that's the next step.

It's a bunch of $, shoot both before you make a decision.

Okay I only mentioned one.



But if you want data...

I'll admit I was wrong. The 24 is superior to the 21 in every way except weight and exit pupil.

TR21
TR24

21 weight: 11.7oz
24 weight: 14.4oz

21 length: 10.5"
24 length: 10.3"

21 FOV @ 100 yards: 61.6' - 20.5'
24 FOV @ 100 yards: 97.5' - 24.2'

21 exit pupil: 16.9mm - 6.0mm
24 exit pupil: 17.5mm - 5.1mm

21 eye relief: 4.8" - 3.4"
24 eye relief: 3.2"

Maybe with the red dots, but I know guys who have killed people at 600-800 m's with their ACOGs.

This is the problem. I want the best of both worlds. One of the reasons I was looking at this particular ACOG is because I like the fact it is 4X and can be used at longer ranges. My plan (which may be flawed) was to have a very durable optic for long range shooting and mount a secondary optic (aimpoint micro or reflex) to use inside of 50 yards. I was thinking of using some sort of an off-set mount to cover short ranges and the ACOG for medium and long ranges. My lack of knowledge with the ACOG has me questioning how effective this setup would be.

My thought process with the Accupoint was to just get the variable 1X and skip the off-set. Just be happy with what ever range I could get with the Accupoint. I have read how effective the ACOG 4X is at longer ranges, so I am surprised to read their effectiveness is diminished at 300 yards.

As always, price begins to weigh heavily on what you would like and what you can realistically get.

It's not that ACOGs are ineffective past 300 yards. They have BDCs out to 800 meters. Plenty of soldiers and marines make long range shots with ACOGs. I was trying to say that if you routinely plan of shooting that far or further, there are better options.

ACOG plus offset red dot is not a bad setup. LaRue makes a great offset mount. Optic setups are a very personal choice and I prefer a 1-4X optic. Mounting a JPoint, Doctor, or other similar reddot on top of a TA01 ACOG works also.

Another option I am considering is an ACOG TA33-8 (amber chevron). I would be dropping to 3X, but would gain the daylight illumination. I really like the BDC on the TA01 better though. The TA01 has more features for longer ranges, while the TA33 has longer eye relief and faster target acquisition. Anything else I am missing between the two? I think I am really set on an ACOG. I just need to decide which one. Please keep the suggestions coming.

Thanks!

So much info was thrown around that it's hard to tell what's been said and what hasn't.  I've been in the same boat that you are in trying to find an optic that I liked.  I'm not rich, but I suppose that I have a bigger budget than some and often more money than sense.  I've tried a lot of stuff over the past 20 years.  Please understand that I am not a soldier, nor law enforcement officer.  I am a range jockey that used to shoot matches (kids came along) and enjoy an occasional hunting trip.

The TA01 was the first ACOG that I ever owned and after having owned it, I didn't own another for a long time because it turned me off so badly.  The eye relief is really short and for me it was uncomfortable.  It made it difficult to get into position for some of the awkward shots and getting the right cheek weld was sometimes difficult for me.  Also keep in mind that the ACOGs are combat optics meant for shooting at man sized targets.  You can do some semi precision shooting with one, but that is not its forte.  If you have your heart set on a 4X, check out, I believe, the TA11 (it's hard to keep up with all of the models).  I think that's the one with the more forgiving eye relief.  In any case, you should do some research on the actual attributes of the different models, because you can't go by the specs on the Trijicon website.  The published specs are based on the internal specs of the scopes and NOT actual use.  Since you want magnification, you should also check out the TA33.  I just got one.  It's only a 3X, but geez, it's nice.  The eye relief is super forgiving and the horseshoe reticle is really fast up close and there is a BDC as well.  It is also pretty darned small and light.

As for the Accupoint, it is definitely more versatile than the ACOGs.  The ACOGs were designed with a purpose in mind.  The Accupoints were designed to cover a wider range of uses.  It's like a conventional scope with the cool lit reticle and good glass.  There was some debate over whether the price difference between the TR21 and the TR24 is justified.  Believe me, the difference is more than just .25X magnification.  The TR21 does beat the TR24 in terms of weight as the TR21 is lighter, but not by much.  The TR21 has a bigger exit pupil, but anything over around 5mm is wasted anyway, because that will be more light than your eye can use.

What makes the price difference worth it to me is the eye relief.  An AR is one of those rifles where you should develop a cheek weld and then you do best when you stick to it for consistency (nose to charging handle is popular and works well).  With the TR21 (and Leupolds that I've tried), the eye relief changes as you go through the magnification range.  This may not sound like a big deal, but imagine scanning through your scope for a target.  You find it, you reach up and twist the mag ring and then have to change your cheek weld because the eye relief changed.  It bugged the heck out of me.  On the TR24, the eye relief is constant.  Believe me, I much prefer the form factor of the TR21, but I like the TR24 for the reasons I stated.  If the eye relief thing won't bother you, go for it.  You can make a good deal on a TR21.

On a last note, the ACOGs are really cool.  I mean really cool.  Just make sure that you look around for one that will fit your needs.  Have you noticed how many TA01s are up for sale?  Right now, I'm in the position of having to decide whether or not to keep my TA33 because I'd like something a bit more flexible.  I just got it a couple of weeks ago and am seeing its limitations in terms of the kind of shooting that I like to do sometimes.  I'm looking at a Nightforce NXS.  Hey, if you have the money for a T01, maybe you should check out an NXS too.  A 2.5-10X24 can be had for around $1200.  I've never messed with one before, but everyone says it's nice.

I also have to make a few comments about reticle colors.  Although red seems popular, try to check them out for yourself.  The color that works the best seems to vary from person to person.  For my eyes, red is too bright outdoors (it's common to have to cover the fiber optic on models equipped with it to keep the reticle from blooming) and absolutely useless indoors.  When checking out a TA44S with red reticle under bright lighting in the shop, I actually lost the reticle when I ran it across a rack of camo jump suits.  Amber shows up really well outdoors without any blooming problems and works well indoors, but I've had somewhat of a problem when shooting from a dark area into a well lit area.  In most cases, the reticle just turns black, but in some cases the reticle is really hard to see.  For me, green works best.  I haven't been able to find any situation where I couldn't see the reticle, indoors or out.

Look at the TA11 ACOG. I'll let others explain why as I'm responding to your post using my iPhone and it will be a PITA to list all the good things the 11 has over the other types in the ACOG line.  

And a mention of the TA11 as I was typing my response.

The only problem is the TA11 is quite a bit more expensive. Unfortunately, I have to draw the line in the sand somewhere. A couple of weeks ago, I was looking at a Leupold Mark AR and it was off to the races I really did not think I could afford any ACOG until I decided to get the Accupoint. Once I decided on Trijicon, I realized the mount and optic together were the same as a few ACOG's with the mount included. I am still researching and I hope to come up with a resolution soon. Please keep the suggestions coming.

Thanks!

If the TA11 is out of reach, at least take a look at the TA33.  There isn't very much difference between 3X and 4X and it's much less expensive.

Do you really need the lit reticle?  There are some really good scopes out there for $500 or under.  As I mentioned, I'm not wild about the Leupolds, but lots of people like them.  If you can live without the lit reticle, but are more concerned with clear glass and a compact form factor, check out the Nikon African 1-4X20 and the Sightron 1.25-5X20.  I recently sold the Sightron and had a hard time letting it go.  To my eyes it was optically superior to my ACOGs (probably due to its ability to be focused) but just wasn't as cool.  Yes, I was drunk (and still am) on the cool aid.  Both of the scopes that I mentioned are around 10" long and weigh around 10 oz.  If you don't mind a little heft, you could look at the Vortex PST (has all of the tacticool amenities).  I haven't had one in my hands yet, but it is highly anticipated and optics planet supposedly has them already.

I understand why people favor the TA11, but are you saying the TA33 is superior to the TA01? If so, can you tell me why? Thanks!

OK, I'm going by memory here, but as far as I can remember, the TA01 was a PITA to shoot for me.  It just seemed like my face had to be right up on the scope to get a clear and full sight picture.  I'm no soldier that drills with my rifle daily, so I don't always hold the rifle properly or as tightly as I should when popping off a quick shot.  Sometimes I wound up banging myself in the eye with the scope because it was so close to my face.  The eye relief made it almost necessary to get the right cheek weld to be able to see through the scope.  And please, if I'm over stating this, correct me.  It's been a while since I shot a TA01.  I just know that I was really PO'd that I spent all of that money on this scope that I hated.  I sold it.  Now after a few years, I decided to check them out again and as it turns out, I should have done more research before buying the one I did.  I can't say that I've looked through or used all of the ACOGs.  Part of the reason was price.  The 4Xs can get expensive.  I do know that the TA11s are more forgiving in the eye relief department, meaning that your eye doesn't need to be as close to the scope to see through it and it isn't as picky about perfect eye alignment.

I got the TA33 after my interest in it was sparked by a thread on this forum.  I went to my local shop one day and they had one.  The exact one that I was interested in.  TA33 with the green horseshoe reticle.  I looked through it and the next thing I knew I was digging $100 bills out of my pocket.  The eye relief is very forgiving.  I haven't had any problem seeing through it no matter what position I'm shooting from.  It's just plain more comfortable to shoot.  I can unreservedly say that I will be VERY surprised if you like the TA01 better than the TA33.  You should at least check it out.

Like I said, check the "for sale" threads on the forums and you'll see a butt load of TA01s for sale.

I will admit that I'm thinking about selling my TA33, but that's only because I have a TA44S that I like better (for its intended purpose as a red dot replacement) and I'll be replacing the TA33 with a Nightforce NXS.  One of the ACOGs will HAVE to go if I buy this freakin' Nightforce.

Still in all, be sure to compare the Accupoint to the ACOG.  You might like it better for what you want to do.  With the Accupoint, you'll get the 4X that you wanted.

After all of my researching, I have it narrowed down to three different optics. I am leaning toward the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4 TR24 in amber mainly due to the price and ability to change magnification. My next option is the Trijicon ACOG TA11G-H because it's a durable optic and I really like the new green horseshoe. Last is a Nightforce NXS. This is actually a little cheaper than the ACOG and from what I have been reading, better eye relief.

What is the general consensus on the FC-2 reticle?

The Accupoint is the most economical choice, but I am not sure I like the reticle.

Thanks!

I went and bought a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10X32 yesterday and while I was there checked out the 1.-4X with FC-2 reticle.  It is a combat reticle and I don't know about doing any fine shooting with it, but it will certainly do anything that the ACOG will.  The glass was also a lot better than that of the ACOG.  It was very noticeably clearer to me.  The illumination also worked well.  If you want to do some finer shooting at smaller targerts out to the limits of the 4X, I'd go for the NP-1 reticle.  If a combat optic is what you want, go for the FC-2.  They are both very nice for their intended purpose.

If I had to choose for a 4X, I'd go with the Nightforce.  It's a little longer and a bit heavier, but I think it's a better piece of glass and it's still small and light enough to put on an AR.  My next purchase is going to be the 1.-4X NXS.  It was sweet.  What's sweeter is that you can get any one that you want now and for around $200, Nightforce will change the reticle if you want later on.  Trijicon can't/won't do that.

If the Nightforce is, indeed, less expensive than the the ACOG, that would be a no brainer to me.  I'd grab the Nightforce.  I recently bought two ACOGs.  One TA44S as a red dot replacement and a TA33 as a medium range optic.  The TA44S is a keeper for its intended purpose.  The TA33 was nice.  I liked the green horseshoe too, but had been on the fence about it.  After having gone and checked out the Nightforce scopes, I bought the 2.5-10X for an SPR buld that I'm planning and have my mind made up on the 1-4X.  I sold my TA33 last night and will be getting the 1-4X Nightforce as soon as I can justify it to my bank account.