Ok, so I have a disagreement with my friend.

One of us says the soft steel core, often called a penetrator, is not true AP, but is still intended for use against soft targets and soft armor.

The other says the purpose of the steel core is solely to make it lead free, and is just meant to perform like any other FMJ lead core ball ammo.

Who is right? Are we both wrong? Both right?

Also, is it legal to possess/buy M995 black tipped AP ammo? I've never really been able to find a clear answer about this stuff.

I would like to know this also. Just curious

Maddawg

The round is most definitely NOT lead free.

The round is also ANYTHING BUT AP.

It's design was to enhance penetration at extended ranges against enemies wearing armor.

Red is correct.

You will never find M995 available for purchase.  Our military rarely even uses it due to costs. I don't know about the legality of it (I do know you can find 30-06 AP on occasion).  

In red is more correct..... The penetrator is made of tungsten and is not true AP and was developed for soft body armor and steel helmets.
In blue...... Not sure of the legality of possesing M995 AP ammo (I would say it is not legal if I had to guess... I am sure someone else will be along shortly with a more definate/correct answer), but you will not find it anywhere for sale to the public in the USA(probally nowhere else for that matter).

ETA: Beat me to it! LOL

M855 penetrator is NOT made of tungsten.  The M995 AP ammo uses a tungsten core.  M855 uses a steel core.

OK cool. I was the red one

Arfcom has taught me well in these past 9 months or so.

I guess I should buy a membership soon huh?

I've seen the black tipped stuff on gun broker before... is this the ATF trying to entrap people or something, or this a guy with some black paint tryin' to make a buck or what?

Here's some .308: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125558307

There is also some .30-06

I searched "black tipped ammo"

Yesterday I saw M995 on there but it is gone now. Perhaps removed?

Like I said, you can find 30-06 and 308 AP, but I've NEVER seen M995 for sale.  If you find some (M995) there are two things that have happened: 1) it's fake 2) it's stolen.  Neither of which I want any part of.

OK good to know. I'll avoid it if I see it then.

Thanks for the quick replies, everyone.

I recall reading from someone on here that any caliber that has been used in a pistol can not have true AP rounds sold to civilians.  Some Genius decided to make an AR 15 pistol, so, there goes AP rounds for the ar 15.  There are currently no pistols that fire the 30.06 or .308.  Those black tip rounds you see are legit, ammunitiontogo occasionally sold black tipped 30.06 a while back, but it is rather pricey.  There was also talk on here about how M995 is not all that it is cracked up to be.  Something about the small size of the round meant to be a "tank buster" just defies physics.  Something that small is not really meant to destroy tanks, or basically, be an anit-material round.  Like someone else said, if you see someone labeling a round as M995 don't buy it, it is stolen or it is fake.  Also, don't be sucked into buying what some called "moly coated AP rounds".

This is an M855 bullet I pulled from a damage round I found in a case of XM855PD I picked up in early 2007 from Natchez.  The red arrow point to the line between the steel core in the front and the lead core in the back of the projectile.  The steel core on the right is relatively hard as the one in the picture was found after I fired several rounds into some concrete blocks.  There are very few marks on it.  That said the cutaway picture was achieve using a standard bastard file to expose the core so the steel core can not be supper hard or the file would not have cut it.

Hope that helps a little
mcb

I have a V51P - which is a .308 HK clone pistol.  Also seen 5.7 AP ammo for sale that would work in FN's 5.7 pistol.

Just because some ammunition has a black tip on it, does not make it M995.    The bullets used in M995 are not available as reloading components and it is illegal for someone who does not hold a type 10 FFL to manufacture bullets like those used in M995.  It is also illegal for a type 10 FFL to sell M995 to a civilian.

Well, haha I stand corrected.  I knew there were 5.7 AP rounds but I didn't think they could be sold to the public.  I guess I need to ask what constitutes something as a "pistol"?

Correct.

Disclosure - I have actually never shot my .308 pistol as a pistol.  As soon as my tax stamp comes in, it will SBR and go directly to the range with some non-AP ammo.

Looks like someones using your picture here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125863192


Maybe a percentage of sales should be yours?

are you sure on the word never? right now as i type this there is 100 rds of black tip 5.56 ammo for sale on GB. so if M995 ammo is the only black tip ammo, well there you go.

I didn't read through all this, just searched "black" in the thread and no one mentioned it yet I think.

I read here on more than once occasion that at least one type of black tip 5.56 was sold here in the states that was not m995, but rather m855 with black instead of green. I do not remember the country of origin, but it "might" have been Portugal which would be FNM marked.

Yep, I'm sure.  You and I will never see the real M995 for sale .

Just because it's for sale on Gunbroker does not make it real, represented correctly, or legitimate.

I've got a bottle of black matte touchup paint.  I'll sell you 100rds of superduper black-tipped M855 for $300.

on the green tip, it's meant to penatrate soft more easily
black tip armor and walls
i've seen black tip sold to civilians at some of the surplus warehouses, from what i understand from the site(this was 2 years back), you dont see it much because it is illegal for the manufacturer to sell it direct, the only reason this site had some was because of a return, it was purchased and sold to a police department then half of it was returned thereby allowing it to be sold to public

that was their explanation not mine

keeblerelf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

Scroll to bottom for info.  

Seems like quite a few people in here have things mixed up.

Wikipedia for the win.  The M855 bullet is built to retain both velocity and a nose-forward attitude over a longer distance than the M193 bullet, and it does this by arranging the mass of the bullet to get that effect.  It is marked differently because the heavier, longer bullet requires a faster spin than the 1:12 (or earlier 1:14) spin of the original M16 and the M16A1.  That is ALL the marking means: a bullet that is effective over a longer distance.

Some confusion comes from the original specification: the round must penetrate a "standard NATO steel helmet" at 600 meters.  If an M193 bullet could get that far with a nose-forward attitude, it would do that.  It's just that it loses stabilization and begins to yaw before that distance so, while it'll punch through the relatively thin, fairly mild steel of a helmet at shorter distances, it can't quite do it that far out.

M855 was designed to penetrate a steel helmet at so many yards (500 or 600 IIRC).

M995 is true AP

The ammo oracle is an excellent reference and will tell you more about the ammo specs and design than you care to know.

Have you got a link to the thread where "this site" had access to M995?  Not being contrarian, but I would like to read it.

Bosnian/Serbian Igman factory black tip SS109 (headstamp looks like a widened "U" with dots going up the middle of it above ".223") and linked LC XM777 factory black tip cartridges (headstamp "LC 78" & "LC 79")  are both factory "black tip" cartridges. The XM777 was an attempt at enhancing M193 type ammunition & the 55gr. XM777 bullet is magnetic. Unfortunately, both have been misrepresented and sold as "M995 AP".  And the amount of fake 7.62x51mm AP for sale is rapidly growing. Most looks to be based on the DAG cupro-nickel AB 22 type Weichkern steel jacket/lead core or other steel jacket/mild steel core cartridges such as M59.  "A magnet will stick to it as proof of the tungsten core" is the usual sales pitch. Yes, a magnet will stick to it, but that does not mean it has a hardened penetrator AP core. A magnet will NOT stick to the tungsten penetrator in U.S. M948 SLAP because tungsten is non-ferrous/non-magnetic. A magnet will stick to genuine M993/M995 AP because the tungsten penetrator is enclosed in a Tombac clad steel jacket. Make sure and get the headstamp info on any "AP" cartridges for sale and check them out before purchasing. The cartridge headstamp alone will expose virtually all  marketed "M995 AP" for what it is, SCAMMO.  Don't allow these Internet thieves to steal your hard earned ammo dollars.


Bosnian/Serbian Igman SS109 factory "black tip" cartridge headstamp. Some noob recently paid $100 for a single round of this "M995 AP" SCAMMO.


LC 78 XM777 factory "black tip" is 3rd from left. It is a hard-to-find factory black tip, it does attract a magnet, but it is not M995 AP.


7.62x51mm/.30 Cal specialty rounds. "7.62x51mm AP" SCAMMO is now selling for big bucks and the clueless buyers even leave A+ feedback. The T104E1 (pre M59) and M59 "BALL" cartridges on the far left do have mild steel cores, but they are not "AP". The M959 SLAP Tracer is simply an M856 tracer bullet in a sabot and has no "AP" capability whatsoever. If you look closely, you can see the cannelure on the bullet intended for crimping on the M856 tracer cartridge. The U.S. M948 SLAP cartridge fires a 62gr./sub .20 caliber tungsten penetrator at 4000FPS. Although M948 SLAP performed well when used in the 7.62 mini gun, it occasionally had problems when fired from flash suppressor fitted weapons such as the then-standard U.S. M60 GPMG.  An M948 SLAP penetrator reportedly came out the side of an M60 barrel causing a ban on further use by the USMC.



7.62x51mm AB 22 DAG BALL cartridges: These cartridges are being sold as "tungsten AP cartridges": Nothing could be further from the truth. AB 22 cartridges contain thin steel jacket/lead core bullets that were designed to fragment very easily on contact with flesh & bone.  Headstamp is "DAG 93" with NATO cross & lot number. Some DAG 93 sold as "tungsten AP" has green, black, green/black, etc.  colored tips.

Thx Leid, that was the ammo I was talking about...Igman not Port then.

Glad to help. Port M193 uses a 55gr. steel jacket bullet, so it will attract a magnet. Scammers simply paint a black tip on it to make their "M995 AP". FNM 82-10 headstamped Port M193 bullet, sectioned and cold blued to show steel jacket, is below. As you can see, the Port M193 steel jacket bullet has a lead core with no hardened AP penetrator.

There is some black tip 5.56 on gunbroker right now, so it must be legal to own.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125820743

Paint them rainbow and call them hippie penetrator.

The cartridges in that auction are Igman SS109 factory "black tip" .223, which are most often misrepresented as "AP" or "M995 AP".  The black tip on Igman SS109 was a misnomer as it was not intended to designate the cartridge as AP and was eventually dropped/changed to green like most other SS109 & M855.  Another noob is about to waste some serious coin on ammunition that should sell for only a fraction of what he is bidding.

The GB seller states in his auction that this is SS109 ammunition as printed on the box and shows a detail of the cartridge headstamp:

[Information added 03/27/2009 5:16:24 PM] Seller's statement:
"The box these came in says 5.56x45mm SS109, Made in Bosnia & Herzegovina. I have added a picture of the bottom of the case."

I believe painting them rainbow would make them a homo penetrator

Yes!

It was not long after I started lurking here that I realized how much I was learning - even though I've been shooting for >30 years. This forum is fantastic!

The $25 membership fee was paid back to me in savings VERY quickly. ARFcom has also kept me from buying more bad products.

I recommend that anyone here who has ever saved money thanks to information learned should contribute back to help keep this place running. And if you can afford it, obtain one of the higher tier memberships.

That’s nothing.  Look what I have for sale on gunstroker.com.  It’s the new, 75 grain, 5.56mm XM875, Specialized Purposes Light Armored Anti-Target round.  It has a black tip, so you know it’s armor piercing and since I’m selling it on gunstroker.com, it must be legal to own.



Only $30.00 for all three rounds (plus shipping and handling, e-surance and federal exercise tax.)

True AP rounds from SSA cost over 5 dollars PER round.  If that were REAL AP rounds that would easily sell for 100+ dollars.  With the ammo scare nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if, if that were true AP rounds, it would sell for 200+.

That's what I was referring to a few posts ago when I said Port...leid corrected me and said Igman, and there it is, Igman. It's the first time I've seen anyone selling that specific type and I'm glad I remembered the topic from months ago because it would have fooled me.

M855 = Ball

Here is 7.62mm NATO FNM Port. being sold as "308 7.62 Green Tip Steel Core AP Ammo NATO" with "Steel and Tungston Core". The scammer was so lazy, he did not even bother to paint the tips green as posted in the title of the auction. This ammo is nothing more than steel jacket/lead core BALL ammunition. And even though the box is clearly marked "BALL" in capital letters, yet another NOOB financed this scammer's rip-off after seeing the "magnet trick".

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=127549252

Molon,

Do you have any chrono or fragmentation info on the SPLAAT ammo? Does it have OTH (Over The Horizon) capability?

10.5grs of mild steel

Its ball ammo and can frag

*cough* BULLSHIT *cough*

Whatever 70gr round SSA is putting in that projectile, I really doubt that it's "true AP".  ETA:  I'm guessing it's a Barnes TSX; again, not AP.

As far as the gunbroker auction, yeah, some noob just learned a $60 lesson in caveat emptor.

Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322 The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)

(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means ––

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

§ 922(a) It shall be unlawful ––

(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to ––

(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;

(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and

(C) any manufacture or importation for the purpose of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary; and

(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to ––

(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department agency, or political subdivision thereof;

(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;

(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Secretary.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver––

(5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity.
§ 923

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:

(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;

(2) If the applicant is an importer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year.

(e) ...The Secretary may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license of a dealer who willfully transfers armor piercing ammunition...

(k) Licensed importers and licensed manufactures shall mark all armor piecing projectiles and packages containing such projectiles for distribution in the manner prescribed by the Secretary by regulation. The Secretary shall furnish information to each dealer licensed under this chapter defining which projectiles are considered armor piercing ammunition as defined by section 921(a)(17)(B).

§ 929(a)

(1) Whoever, during and in relation to the commission of a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime which provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which he may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm and is in possession of armor piercing ammunition capable of being fired in that firearm, shall in addition to the punishment provided for the commission of such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment for not less than five years.

(b) Not withstanding any other provision of law, the court shall not suspend the sentence of any person convicted of a violation of this section, nor place the person on probation, nor shall the terms of imprisonment run concurrently with any other terms of imprisonment, including that imposed for the crime in which the armor piercing ammunition was used or possessed. No person sentenced under this section shall be eligible for parole during the term of impressment imposed herein.

List of Armor Piercing Ammunition

KTW AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a green coating on the projectile)

ARCANE AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a pointed bronze or brass projectile)

THV AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a brass or bronze projectile and having a headstamp containing the letters SFM and THV)

CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition having an iron or steel core. (Identified by a cupronickel jacket and headstamp containing a triangle, star and dates 49, 50, 51, or 52. The bullet is attracted to a magnet)

GERMAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) having an iron or steel bullet core. (Original packaging is marked Pisolenpatronen 08 m.E. May have black colored bullet. This bullet is attracted to a magnet)

MSC AMMUNITION, Caliber .25. (Identified by a hollow point brass bullet. NOTE: MSC ammunition Caliber .25 identified by a hollow point copper bullet is not armor piercing)

BLACK STEEL ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

BLACK STEEL METAL PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)

7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge)

PMC ULTRAMAG .38 Special caliber, constructed entirely of a brass type material, and plastic pusher disc located at the base of the projectile. NOTE: PMC ULTRAMAG 38J late production made of copper with lead alloy projectile is not armor piercing.

OMNISHOCK, a .38 Special cartridge with a lead bullet containing a mild steel core with a flattened head resembling a wad cutter. (NOTE: OMNISHOCK cartridges having a bullet with an aluminum core are not armor piercing.)

7.62x39mm with steel core. (NOTE: these projectiles have a steel core. Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing)

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:

5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.

The description shows it as a 97 grain.  It's LE restricted, and SSA has a rep for being good people, so I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

Jay

I just purchased 200 rounds of IMI 5.56MM M855. this is a 65 gr steel tip will penetrate 0.186 inches of steel at 400 yds. (Thick Sheet Metal). Marines and Soldiers complain in Iraq and Afganistan problem is that this round will go right through a body and if you don't hit a bone or a vital organ, they will just keep comming at you.

And where did you hear that?  You couldn't be more wrong.

Read, get educated:  http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

Classic first post, though.

GREAT presentation Dr Roberts.

Thank you for sharing that with us.

No, the description shows it as 70 grain.  Here  The 6.8 AP round is 97 grains.  The bullet description in the order box on the 5.56 page must be a typo, unless SSA has figured out how to use the same round in both 5.56 and 6.8 and  create a 97 grain 5.56 bullet that can be loaded to mag length.

What is the pistol cartridge on the left? It looks like someone stuck a game token into a casing.

I was wondering about that myself except it reminded me of a mouthpiece for a bowl.

It's a 9mm THV (French) round.  You'll note that THV is the third entry on the list posted above, and ALL their ammunition is considered armor piercing.  I think you can see how this could defeat Kevlar...