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Posted: 12/7/2004 10:37:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 5:31:21 PM EDT by Troy]
As noted:

lightfighter.net/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=7206084761&m=823107126

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000847


------------------------

Last week, FedEx delivered boxes of current production RBCD/LeMas .223 Urban Warfare and .223 Land Warfare loads, as well as .308 Land Warfare from those who recently received them from Mr. Bulmer.

We will begin testing immediately. Since we still do not know who the designers of the RBCD/LeMas loads are, we will be unable to conduct interviews. Likewise, we are unable to inspect the RBCD/LeMas facilities. As a result, we will be moving directly to an elemental analysis of the RBCD/LeMas BMT loads. Upon completion, we will be able to state precisely what metals are used in the construction of the LeMas BMT bullets and will be able to fully explain their physical properties-including whether the LeMas bullets are truly “blended metal” and a “non-comparable bullet technology” as repeatedly stated by Mr. Bulmer. The analysis will be similar to that used in assessing LeMas handgun bullets: www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000630#000000

As I have stated all along, eventually the irrefutable facts about LeMas BMT APLP will be demonstrated and the truth will be indisputably revealed…the clock is ticking and we will report the findings as soon as this phase of testing is complete.

Timeline could be as short as a few weeks to as long as several months. This testing needs to be fit in around our already full schedules and all of us are extremely busy this time of year. In addition, some of the analytical equipment needed for this research are shared assets--availability is somewhat limited. Finally, this is testing is not being funded by the Federal Government. End result: answers are likely to be available as early as late December 04 to as distant as early Spring 05. Sorry, but there are too many factors involved to be more definite at this point.
Link Posted: 12/7/2004 10:38:13 AM EDT
While the distortions perpetuated by politicians and the media try to obfuscate the issue, the term “assault rifle” has a specific definition--a shoulder fired carbine, using an intermediate cartridge, firing from a closed bolt, capable of using a large capacity detachable magazine, and having select fire capability. Unlike Diane Feinstein and other of her ilk, professionals know and understand what an assault rife is (and is not) and use the term appropriately.

Likewise, don't let LeMas's hyperbole distract you from using or understanding the term, “blended metal”, as delineated above, when it is an appropriate and correct description.

Keep in mind, true "blended metal" bullets have fared very well in testing. For example, the JAG approved, 5.56 mm Powell River Laboratories (PRL) 87 gr bullet used a “blended metal” powdered tungsten-tin core with copper jacket, offering outstanding terminal performance and long range accuracy-it's main problems were high cost, limited production capability, and inconsistent quality control. See: Fackler ML: Tungsten Frangible Bullet Wounds in Pig: Exam by Autopsy and X-Ray. Wound Ballistic Review. (4)3:33-34, Spring 2000.

A good description of the differences between true blended metal and conventional construction bullets can be found at: www.fbo.gov/spg/DON/NAVSEA/N00164/N0016404R4846/SynopsisR.html

The description of standard swaged, lead-core, jacketed bullets is outstanding, as it provides a perfect definition of conventional bullet construction:

"Conventional lead core, full metal jacket rifle projectiles, such as those used by the US military, consists of a gilding metal jacket and a lead core. The gilding metal used in the jacket typically consists of cupronickel, cupro-zinc, cupro-tin or in some cases pure copper. The projectile core is not pure lead. The core typically consists of lead mixed with antimony or tin. The hardness and brittleness of the lead core is controlled by the amount of antimony or tin added. The lead used in the core is melted and the desired amount of antimony or tin is added to the molten lead."

The description of “blended metal” projectiles is also very good, as it accurately defines what “blended metal” bullets actually are and how their construction differs from conventional bullets:

"Within the past 10-15 years, many different manufacturers have developed projectiles which utilize cores manufactured with materials other than lead, using processes other than melting. The base metals used in these formulations are usually a very fine powder. Copper, tungsten, and brass are examples of some of the base powdered metals used to date. These powdered metals are mixed with a binder such as tin, zinc, or a polymer such as nylon. Once the powdered metal(s) and binder(s) are mixed, they are pressed or molded into the final projectile core form, and in some cases sintered. The description of a blended metal technology projectile would then be any projectile manufactured from a mix of powdered metals and binders which are blended and then pressed or molded into the desired form or shape."
Link Posted: 12/7/2004 11:15:51 AM EDT


I look forward to the test results!
Link Posted: 12/7/2004 11:19:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2004 11:45:52 AM EDT
Can't wait.
Link Posted: 12/7/2004 11:53:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2004 4:35:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
This should be interesting.


Yup
Link Posted: 12/10/2004 4:57:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2004 4:59:02 PM EDT by Feedingcannibal]
I'll throw a in here for results and discussion updates.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 4:33:41 AM EDT
Tagged!
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 7:16:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 7:24:28 AM EDT
Tag for the ownage.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 12:36:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 1:15:14 PM EDT
I don't see how tests could do anything but stop the flame war. If both parties agreed to the test parameters and they were performed properly, well then until it sees very well documented combat use it seems like the final word to me.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 1:50:27 PM EDT
Waiting for results.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:03:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:04:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CobrayCommando:
I don't see how tests could do anything but stop the flame war. If both parties agreed to the test parameters and they were performed properly, well then until it sees very well documented combat use it seems like the final word to me.


Tests are the flame war.
That's the problem.
LeMas claims the tests aren't appropriate for the characteristics of the ammunition.
Which is BullSh-t.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:07:04 PM EDT
Moreover, he attempts to appeal to logic that strikes a chord with the ignorant and uneducated...that gelatin somehow "sucks the heat away from his bullet" so it doesn't perform as well.

He won't be dissuaded when his bullets perform poorly in this test.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:13:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2004 2:15:21 PM EDT by Stryfe]

Originally Posted By leakycow:
Moreover, he attempts to appeal to logic that strikes a chord with the ignorant and uneducated...that gelatin somehow "sucks the heat away from his bullet" so it doesn't perform as well.

He won't be dissuaded when his bullets perform poorly in this test.


No, the gelatin isn't at body temperature, and his bullet only works when it's at body temperature.
If it's room temperature when it's chambered, at what point during the firing process does it get to be body temp?
How does a piece of cooked meat replicate a human body? Once the animal dies, process' begin that don't occur when it's alive. More process' happen while it's sitting in a cooler, and then more happens when it's brought back up to temp. How is that better than gelatin?
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:15:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryfe:
No, the gelatin isn't at body temperature, and his bullet only works when it's at body temperature.
If it's room temperature when it's chambered, at what point during the firing process does it get to be body temp?



He'd probably say that it happens the nanosecond the bullet enters a bad guy's buttocks.
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:18:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leakycow:

Originally Posted By Stryfe:
No, the gelatin isn't at body temperature, and his bullet only works when it's at body temperature.
If it's room temperature when it's chambered, at what point during the firing process does it get to be body temp?



He'd probably say that it happens the nanosecond the bullet enters a bad guy's buttocks.


I think I may have worded that wrong.

The bullet hit's body temperature before it hits the body, as part of the firing process.
Why doesn't it burst sooner? What about friction as it passes through armor? Why doesn't that cause it to burst?
Link Posted: 12/11/2004 2:21:06 PM EDT
It's at that point he'd stammer a bit, run to the kitchen, and bring out a pot roast to make you forget about thngs like friction.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 10:53:00 AM EDT
I don't claim to know anything about Lemas bullets, but I've seen what one can do to a very large piece of meat, it reduces it to its base elements of water, protein and red stuff. Do regular softpoints or fragmenting bullets do this? I honestly do not know, that isn't a sarcastic question.

If the guy says it only works when it enters living flesh, then the test parameters mentioned seem perfect, shooting them into a live hogs leg.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 10:58:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CobrayCommando:
I don't claim to know anything about Lemas bullets



At this point in time, nobody does, really.


If the guy says it only works when it enters living flesh, then the test parameters mentioned seem perfect, shooting them into a live hogs leg.


The problem is, there is no scientific basis for his claim, other than something like, "because they're blended metal--that's why." Now the bullets are in the hands of people who understand what the scientific method is all about, and hopefully a little light will be revealed.

Shooting the bullets into live flesh is, I'll agree with you, much more meaningful than thawed-out meatloaf or whatever other bullet-voodoo this guy (and others) use to exaggerate their products.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:10:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CobrayCommando:
Do regular softpoints or fragmenting bullets do this? I honestly do not know, that isn't a sarcastic question.


I don't have any personal experience, but I'll relay what has been posted on this topic frequently.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Light weight, high velocity bullets perform similar to what the BMT bullets are shown to do. That is penetrate armor, and then expand dramatically. The problem is that they don't penetrate deeply and may only create a minor wound.


If the guy says it only works when it enters living flesh, then the test parameters mentioned seem perfect, shooting them into a live hogs leg.

The best way to find out if they perform as advertised is to study real life shootings. I don't know about you, but I don't want to wait 'til then to find out if my bullets work.
So, a form of testing has been developed by a very smart group of people who have spent a lot of time studying the subject.
The important things to point out in reference to these tests is that they directly correlate with data from real world shootings, and they are repeatable. That is, if a lab on the East side of the country performs a test following the proper protocals, a lab on the West side of the country can repeat those results. The two labs can directly compare their findings.
Using a piece of meat, does not have the same level of repeatablility that the other tests do.
Shooting an animal, isn't necessarily the same as shooting a person.
I don't think any states have the firing squad for the death penalty anymore, and if they do, I don't think testing ammo would go over well.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:16:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:18:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2004 11:21:28 AM EDT by CobrayCommando]
This is all true, but why not test the bullet to the best of our abilities? Humane testing on properly anesthetized animals seems to be the best way to determine if this bullet really explosively expands in flesh.

In case you hadn't noticed that was a joke about reducing it to its base elements. I would have thought any person with common sense would know that red stuff isn't an element, and neither is protein or water. If you watch the slow mo videos from the Blackwater shoot, a .45 Lemas turns a large hunk of meat into what looks like strands of muscle and water. I would like to see a .45 hollowpoint shot into meat so I can compare the results.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:22:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2004 11:23:30 AM EDT by leakycow]
Shooting into live animals is ONE way, and it does shed some light, but it isn't always the BEST way. Shooting into animals introduces dozens of variables that aren't usually present in ballistic gelatin testing.

Bulmer knows this, and also likely knows what his bullets will and won't do in gelatin. He's ducked the public-testing as long as possible, hoping to get a contract for a big purchase in the meantime.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:23:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CobrayCommando:
I would like to see a .45 hollowpoint shot into meat so I can compare the results.


Which begs the question, when have you ever been assaulted by deli meat?
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:26:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryfe:

Originally Posted By CobrayCommando:
I would like to see a .45 hollowpoint shot into meat so I can compare the results.


Which begs the question, when have you ever been assaulted by deli meat?



I was at this party, man, and this roast beef was being totally belligerent, man....good thing this Navy ninja killer turned private commando was there - he shot it and it like totally exploded! I was like, wow, man, how did that do that? He said, man, shut the fuck up, I just kill people and I don't care about all that scientific mumbo jumbo, and you wouldn't either if you were as super cool as me and my boys! You're just a fucking poser wannabe man! I said, like, okay, man, you don't have to yell.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:31:16 AM EDT
Wow are all of you PMSing or something? I wanted to compare the results to see if there is a difference between hollowpoints and Lemas that doesn't show up in gelatin. When have you ever been attacked by a pigs back leg? Apparently according to you the only way to test it is in human flesh. Have fun!
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:35:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CobrayCommando:
Wow are all of you PMSing or something? I wanted to compare the results to see if there is a difference between hollowpoints and Lemas that doesn't show up in gelatin. When have you ever been attacked by a pigs back leg? Apparently according to you the only way to test it is in human flesh. Have fun!



Look...most of us have listened to this bull shit for two years now. Just because some snake oil huckster says the laws of physics don't apply to his ammo doesn't mean it's true. The heat transfer thing is bullshit, and that's how he claims his ammo is different. BMT ammo is a very lightweight, very high velocity bullet. There's nothing special about it, and when Doc gets done demonstrating that, Bulmer is going to snap right back into "You didn't do the tests right, you're cheating, etc etc etc." Just sit back and watch. He's so predictable you could set your watch by him.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:38:58 AM EDT

Apparently according to you the only way to test it is in human flesh. Have fun!


Here's where you're just confused. Read the ammo oracle. Or, go to google and do a search on ballistic gelatin. You'll probably find information about some guys named MacPherson and Fackler, some info about some noteworthy groups called the FBI and IWBA, and then you'll see why shooting lamb chops is usually meaningless.

You'll then have an understanding of why ballistic gelatin is so often used.
a. the results are repeatable and measurable
b. the gelatin is calibrated before shooting, so that results can be compared from around the world
c. it is a relatively homogeneous substance, so it minimalizes the variables introduced from animal testing
d. it is designed to mirror closely the behavior of projectiles in flesh, based on years of compiled studies and data

Seriously, do this. I, for one, am not PMSing, but I have a great deal of respect for the scientific work done in terminal ballistics that has led to a greater understanding of why bullets are so harmful.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:39:18 AM EDT
Okay, thanks for the clarification. I already stated I knew nothing about Mr. Bulmers claims, or Lemas bullets. I guess the demonstrations I saw were manufactured to trick younguns like me.

Maybe we should pay people who live in the inner city to carry some of it so we can autopsy burglar corpses.

Is there a thread that I can go to to see what the actual claims and "facts" supporting it were?
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:45:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:48:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2004 11:53:46 AM EDT by danonly]

Originally Posted By CobrayCommando:
Is there a thread that I can go to to see what the actual claims and "facts" supporting it were?



Why, and/or who cares?

Is there a shortage of excellent home defense projectiles out there currently? No.

If you want the latest fad irregardless of actual performance, look into the lemas bullet hype.

If you want "more than good enough" performing home defense, anti- zombie, whatever ammo or raw components, look into the tested, reliable data that is out there for your info. Don't get sucked into the latest untested hype when you can use tested and reliable info.


Oh yeah, Thanks for the forthcoming info and testing, DocGKR. I appreciate you sharing info here, and since cobraycommando has already demonstrated his great knowledge here, please just ignore his foolish talk.

Link Posted: 12/12/2004 11:57:43 AM EDT
Ok, I was just asking. I'm guessing that .30 caliber bullets were thought a fad when they were first used, probably .223 as well. For every 1,000 new innovations, 1 might be a keeper, what if this is the one?

From what you are saying, obviously it is not however.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 12:00:35 PM EDT
Yes, this is probably not the greatest thing since (insert cliche).

However, just wait for testing results to be released before anyone draws final conclusions. Testing is being performed now by a well-respected ballistics guru, after a lot of bickering and arm-twisting to get Bulmer to reluctantly agree.

If his company had stock, this is about the time you'd expect him to sell off his shares.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 12:02:17 PM EDT
Didn't Mr. Bulmer originally request a test though?
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 12:05:41 PM EDT
only under his conditions, most of which threw out any valid science.

He detests ballistic gelatin testing, as his bullets do poorly there. He declined to submit information as to the exact chemical breakdown of the bullets, who their designers/engineers were, whether the ammo meets pressure standards, and to allow a visit to the manufacturing center.

Go over to tacticalforums.com and search there...there are a couple of big threads that detail the whole sordid mess.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 2:11:36 PM EDT
Someone wake me up if this thread ever becomes useful.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 3:44:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zak-Smith:
Someone wake me up if this thread ever becomes useful.



Sleep tight, some how at this rate I don't think so.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 3:57:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2004 4:44:54 PM EDT by brouhaha]
<deleted>
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 4:06:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 4:11:27 PM EDT
better?
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 4:21:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 5:07:40 PM EDT
Animal testing is not needed. Just distribute a bunch of rounds to U.S soldiers in Iraq. Fallujah would have been perfect for this.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 5:09:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 8:03:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2004 8:03:38 PM EDT by wyv3rn]

Originally Posted By leakycow:
Go over to tacticalforums.com and search there...there are a couple of big threads that detail the whole sordid mess.



CobrayCommando,

I would suggest you do nothing more than Lurk there. They will not for a moment tolerate the kind of uninformed myth-espousing behavior there that you have demonstrated here and you will be banned. That's not a slam, that's just a fact, trust me I am trying to help you.

Being gun-ho and thinking things through in your head is great, don't ever loose that, but it must be tempered with a quiet fact-finding & listen reservation at times. You will learn a much more, much quicker and make less enemys. We understand that everyone has to start somewhere, it's ok to not know. It's not ok to not know and then spout off about the things you don't know.

Would you go into a surgery room and try to tell the doctor the data his years of study have taught are all wrong without taking a single medical class? There are a lot of very informed vetrans here, sit back, relax put a smile on your face and get familiar with current science & data on the subject. Then you'll be in a much better position to understand the physics of bullet wounding and propose your own ideas if you choose.
Link Posted: 12/12/2004 8:08:56 PM EDT
Thank you for being honest.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=215027

This Ok?
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 6:48:47 AM EDT
Popcorn... check.

Tagged.
Link Posted: 12/13/2004 8:16:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Tag for the ownage.



My first ever.....

+1
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