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Posted: 5/5/2009 9:51:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2010 8:34:06 AM EDT by SpecOps-13]
Added 1 / 21/ 2010:

This Thread has been moving up in numbers of people reading it by about 750 to 1000 every week lately. I don't know if it also registers the count when a visitor or "Lerker" reads it. We're all here to give and receive answers. I personally enjoy helping others, so If anyone has questions or you thinking of signing up on ARFCOM. I would be happy to offer my help and AR15.com would be happy to have you join if you haven't already. You can do it for free or you can gain some nice added benefits with a membership at various levels. Trust me, this site is the biggest knowledge base for much more than just AR-15's and M16's on the planet. There are more true experts here than is imaginable. A combined total of many Millions of years experience. I learn new things every day and it's not just from those with years and years of experience. At times it will be the new guy, with 5 or 10 posts that's just started to learn who can see things so clearly that the rest of us can't.


SpecOps-13 in Florida
Added 8/24/2009: This topic has become a knowledge base for those getting into AR-22's. It's a mixture of testing with standard conversions, dedicated rifles, uppers and custom builds. Information about ammo used and range reports. You can read it all or skip the parts that you're not interested in. As time goes on more data will be here, in one place, to give you a better idea of what you really want to accomplish with your AR-22. And what you'll need to better meet your shooting goals.

My initial testing was accomplished with WalMart Federal Bulk. As time has gone on I've found it to be inconsistent and have gone to better ammunition's than bulk for refined testing. But initially the use of the same ammo was necessary to establish an equal playing field. To set a baseline for the accuracy of various combinations. Use the knowledge gained to bring yourself up to speed more quickly and shoot better sooner.

Everyone is welcome to make entries here. It's for everyone on ARFCOM. Please, lets try to stick mainly to the subject of everything 22 and accurate reporting. Lets try to let those who read draw their own conclusions based on the information here.
I know, I'll be the one to screw that up, if I haven't already.

Added 9/14/2009: If you're reading this topic from the beginning, keep this thought in mind as you read. There are ways to make any AR-15 twist rate very target capable. You may see some comments about the 1:7" (In Particular) but possibly the 1:9", or even 1:12" twist rate barrels lacking accuracy potential. After initial baseline evaluation were done and with the help and suggestions of others here at ARFCOM, I started testing the various twist rate barrels with ammunition more suited to each. Don't be disheartened by initial evaluations or comments. As you read through the posts you'll find that even the 1:7" is capable of 5/8", 5 shot groups @ 25 yards using the right ammo. With the right combination of optics, ammunition and accessories, it only gets better.


Spec


Original Post:
As some of you may know, I've been shooting standard 22 Conversions nearly every week for the past several years. I've mainly done JAC Units because I have so many.
I have been happy with the Accuracy and Reliability in everything except 1 in 7" Twist Barrels. Best I've done is 4" with Federal Bulk. Better suited ammo means much better groups with these as you will see later in these posts.

With no AR Barrels or .223 Bolt Assemblies Available, I decided to do a dedicated 22. I'm getting DT's having nothing to build.
I ordered a Spikes Green Mountain Dedicated 16". M4 Barrel and Spike's Dedicated Bolt yesterday. I was just notified by UPS that it will be delivered today. Unfrigging Believable.
When it gets here I plan to put it together with a Flat Top Receiver and Fabricate whatever else I don't have to get an Upper together. It'll require a Barrel Nut, Delta Pack, Handguard, Handguard Cap and something to replicate a gas Block to hold all that on. I've got most of that on hand. I've done 150 shot groups with a 1 in 12" and a 1 in 9" Rifle the past couple weeks that can be used for comparison when I get that far. Maybe in the coming weeks/months I can help answer some of the Accuracy Questions by comparing a dedicated 1 in 16" Twist with the standard .223 Conversion. I have no reliability issues with standard conversions using Federal Bulk. I do consider the Atchison or Atchison Ciener Style Unit to be the most Accurate of the Conversions due to it's 2 rail design. Several manufacturer's are making this style conversion at the present time. This basic design is what Spikes uses with some Mods to the Chamber Adapter, Plating, O-Rings on the chamber adapter and possibly other parts too.
Customer Service with Spikes has always been 1st Class and the people are Great. Over the Years I've done a lot of .223's with various parts from them and been very happy with the outcome.

SO-13
Link Posted: 5/5/2009 10:44:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2009 10:45:04 AM EDT by Jrock82]
What kind of accuracy are you getting out of your conversions, that you would want to switch to a dedicated upper?

ETA: Comparing conversions to dedicated is something I have been curious about.
Link Posted: 5/5/2009 1:07:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2010 8:37:01 AM EDT by SpecOps-13]
The Accuracy I have gotten from Standard Conversions has varied widely. From 1 1/2" to ???? 8" at 25 Yards, with the same Federal Ammo. The 1 1/2" group was fired at a slower rate of fire under near perfect conditions, indoors. This has been with 20 or so rifles and a dozen or so various conversion types. Most say that the conversion has no function as far as accuracy but, I beg to differ. The Barrel, Conversion Fit, Conversion Type, Differences between Same Type Conversion Units, Lower Parts Kit, Stock Set, Scope/Sights and a lot more come into play. Example: 1 rifle, 1 in 9" twist 16" lightweight, 3 different conversions. First conversion, 8" group, second conversion, 6" group, Ciener conversion, 2" group. same day, same ammo, stable conditions for comparison and a clean rifle in between.
The absolute best 150 round 25 yard group I have fired with a conversion was 1 1/2" at 25 yards ( Not in a Rest, but rested on a bench, slow fire). The ones I'm using for comparison are slightly larger groups, but not drastically. The main reason for the increased group size is the rate of fire I'll be using for these tests.
I'll do the same rate of fire and conditions for the dedicated rifle just to see how it can compare. Recover and fire over and over, with just enough time to re-acquire the target before pulling the trigger. The groups won't be as small as they could be but the comparison should be equil in this way. Seems we all have that question except for those who have both standard and dedicated rifles.
The real reason I am building a Dedicated rifle is that I have .223 / 7.62 Barrels and Bolt Assemblies on Back Order that may never come in. I have Surgery on my foot that will keep me down for over a month when it happens, and I need something to do to keep my mind off the upcoming Surgery. That and I have all the respect in the world for Spikes and Everyone there, as a Parts Supplier and Manufacturer. It's time to answer the Conversion / Dedicated question for myself and maybe you.
I'd build a BB Gun if it looked like a Real AR-15. That Ammo is still available and Very Cheap.......
Link Posted: 5/5/2009 1:40:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:

I'd build a BB Gun if it looked like a real AR-15. That Ammo is still available and Very Cheap.......



Air rifle upper for AR15:

Pilk Guns


Link Posted: 5/5/2009 4:31:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2009 4:32:22 PM EDT by SpecOps-13]
I'll keep an Eye on that Air Rifle Thing. Not the hot ticket right now though. Cost, Appearance and Functionality being considered. Future developement of Full Auto or Burst would be really nice.

UPS just came with my order from Spike's. 28 hours from order to delivery, Un Real. That shows that this time it paid to be only 90 miles away. I'll shoot some pictures and post em when I remember how. Thanx to everyone at Spike's who had a part in getting this out to me............ My DT's are subsiding. I even have another Black Dog Machine Mag to add to the pile (Now 51) for future use.
I have a DPMS Flat Top Receiver that I'm gonna use.

Initial Inspection of Packing / Protection and Part Quality Fit and Finish is First Rate. Some Suppliers just throw things in the box and things tend to get dinged up. I haven't ordered anything to be Shipped from Spike's before, I've always picked up what I needed at the Shows here in Florida..
Link Posted: 5/5/2009 7:03:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2009 7:06:32 PM EDT by theskuh]
I just ordered a barrel and bolt too. It got shipped today I hoping to get it by the end of the week.

I was shooting aquila sss out of my 14.5" 1/7 and that actually made it tolerable for accuracy. Before that it was a challenge to hit a clay at 50 yards. it flug the rounds everywhere.

My 1/12 is decent enough with the ciener. But I wanted to have a dedicated rig. I didn't like how dirty the kit made my 604.

I find it hard to judge the groups accurately without shooting with a good scope from the bench and keeping everything the same across the different rifles. With irons or dots on most of my guns it is hard to really shoot for absolute scientific accuracy. But I can say my 1/7 not good. 1/12 good enough. Dedicated we will see. I am hoping to be surprised.
Link Posted: 5/5/2009 9:32:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2009 11:04:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2009 11:13:43 AM EDT by TurnAndCough]
tagged as well. SO13 does good work. Sorry bout the foot

Quick hijack: Spikes, you guys still got complete dedicated .22 uppers with the front site assemblys in stock? If this review goes as well as I'm hoping, You could be seeing an order from Texas shortly

ETA: Also, can I buy some freekin federal bulk off you guys with the upper? Name your price. It is no where to be found in Texas.
Link Posted: 5/6/2009 1:06:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2009 7:48:41 AM EDT by SpecOps-13]
I did some of the build last night. Finished it today.

I doubt Spike's will share the Federal Bulk, Would be Nice. Wonder if ar15.com could arrange a mass buy direct from Federal????????
It would be the 525 Packs but Still. I'll run out of my supply in a couple years at the rate I'm using the Wal-Mart Stuff.
SO-13


Spikes Parts I Ordered:


Most of the Parts I used. Minus the Gas Tube, Charging Handle, Comp. and Front Sight Assy:



This is the Compensator I decided on, Added: this one worked well...


The Upper Assembled. I wanted to use up some of the parts that have been setting around taking up space so I didn't buy anything additional. Had to Polish and Re-Blue an Old Handguard Cap, Used a Take Off Front Sight Assembly.


Rifle together. Nothing special in the Lower. DPMS Parts. The Hand Grip is Cool and has a built in Winter Trigger Guard. It makes the Rifle fit my hand, aligns the trigger to my finger and it's Comfortable, But Wait! It holds Batteries,too........ Stark Equipment SE-1. Link to a Little Write Up on the Grip if you're interested
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2009/03/28/stark-equipment-se-1-grip-for-the-ar-15/

I talked with Stark at Shot Show. The Scopes just sitting there, Haven't decided on "What" Yet




So much for having something to do. Lousy pictures, but the Suns Down and I wanted Someting here. Not sure when I'll get a chance to shoot it. I've had Dr. Appointments Everyday. Within the next week For Sure.... Maybe My Doctors can Buy some Parts from Spike's now.
Link Posted: 5/6/2009 9:09:30 PM EDT
tag for accuracy report
Link Posted: 5/7/2009 9:29:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2009 12:20:23 PM EDT by SpecOps-13]
Couldn't stand it. I went to the range mid day today. It's hot enough here in Florida, but you have to understand, this is an Old In Door Range. No AC, It just blows Hot Air, especially during the daytime. I normally wait till it cools off a little before I go.

The Spike's Dedicated Parts performed flawlessly for 300 rounds of Wally World Federal Bulk (Cleanup after Shooting was Nothing Compared to Cleaning a Conversion Unit and Rifle). At times while Shooting the 3rd target, my glasses were so fogged up that I slipped them down out of the way for the Second 150 Round Dedicated Rifle Target. Otherwise it was like shooting through a Dirty Fish Tank. I was adjusting the Scope on the First Dedicated Rifle Target (3rd From Left, Bottom Picture), it's not fair to use the 3rd target for the comparison for the mentioned reasons.

All the targets were done over the past 3 weeks of trips to the range. I was shooting while sitting in a Metal Chair, resting the rifles on whatever was handy. My human error was definitely a part of the Equations for all of the Rifles and Targets. I did'nt try to put every shot as perfectly as I could. I waited for the rifles to stabilize somewhat after each shot before pulling the trigger again. Each rifle has a scope, of Whatever Quality. The 1 in 9" Twist Rifle is a 4X, The 1 in 12" is 6X, The Dedicated Rifle Scope is Variable but I left it on 6X so a closer comparison could be made with the 1 in 12" Twist 5.56 Barrel and Ciener Conversion. For this comparison, I feel that each shooting session was equil, except for the miserable heat while I shot the Spike's Dedicated Parts Rifle. If anything it was placed at a disadvantage or atleast me, at discomfort. I have to drive 60 miles to get to a "Real Range" so all shooting was at 25 yards.


Here's a better picture of the Rifle Built With Spike's Barrel and Dedicated Bolt Assy: Atleast the Scope is Really Attached Now. :


These are the targets, They don't appear exactly the same, I never planned to do a comparison when I shot the first 2. They have a few Pasters prior to shooting 150 Round Groups.
I do 150 rounds because there are always Flyers, Not so much with the Dedicated Unit though:

On the Left is from the 1 in 9" and Ciener Conversion, with a Maximum Bullet Spread of 2 1/4".
The Second Target from a 1 in 12" and Ciener Conversion, Maximum Bullet Spread of 2".
The Third Target was the Dedicated Rifle, Shooting Through a "Fish Tank" As I Said. Included as a Joke
The Target on the Right is, After moving my glasses down and after the Scope was adjusted, 1 1/2" Max Spread

.

Even though this isn't a Professional Comparison, It's easy to see the Advantages in Accuracy with a Dedicated 22 Upper.
The 1 in 9" and 1 in 12" Rifles have Standard Ciener Conversion Units that stay in those rifles only and the rifles have been Tweeked to the Max to Gain Every Drop of Accuracy.
I threw together Spare Parts Basically to make the Dedicated 22 Rifle, Consider that Too...
SO-13
Link Posted: 5/7/2009 9:55:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2009 9:56:34 PM EDT by TurnAndCough]
Great job, the difference between the 1/9 and dedicated is obvious. I am a little surprised how well the 1/12 compared though, I'll bet we would see a bigger difference between groupings at 50 yards. I assume you were using the same optic on all of your uppers?

ETA: re-read your post.... sowwie
Link Posted: 5/8/2009 12:13:02 PM EDT
Thank you, that is great.
Link Posted: 5/8/2009 6:08:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2009 6:57:36 PM EDT by theskuh]
Here is an ammo report from my guns.

Went shooting today and grabbed all the different types of ammo on hand to run through my spikes and see what was the most accurate.

Took these three guns:


Spikes Regular dedicated barrel and bolt with 4MOA primary arms clonepoint.



My retro 604 with ciener bolt and irons



10/22 with tasco cheap 3x9 and GM running boar that adco chopped the running boar part off. A little trigger work bedding etc.





Here is the target that I shot at 25 yards All ten shot groups of the bench with front and rear rest.

The top two were with the irons left is Fed automatch right is the Winchester xperts.

next row down spikes with the dot (l to r) Automatch Mini-Mag, Fed Blue box

third row spikes with dot (l to r) Thunderbolts, Fed Bulk, Xperts

4th row was the 10/22. the scope helped tighten the groups alot. They would have been tighter with a higher power scope.




I was surprised at how poorly the fed bulk shot in my spikes and how well the thunderbolts did. The minimags and xperts did okay too.

This was not a great test because with the dot it was hard to achieve that perfect of accuracy but I have a riser and a scope mount for the 604 coming so I can mount some glass on them and see how they do.
Link Posted: 5/8/2009 6:16:09 PM EDT
what about 1 in 7?
Link Posted: 5/8/2009 6:28:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 6:56:05 PM EDT by theskuh]
My 14.5 pinned 1/7 shot ok groups at 25 with aquila sss. With the lighter rounds forgetaboutit
Link Posted: 5/8/2009 9:00:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2009 6:06:46 PM EDT by SpecOps-13]
I didn't mention the 1 in 7" Twist much. I tried a couple Colts with Conversions and Federal 36gr Bulk. I was getting 4" to 7" Groups at 25 Yards. They need a Heavier Bullet. I'm only testing with Federal Bulk so the comparisons are equil. End of Story for right now. Maybe down the road....

I was thinking about the Lower I was using for the Dedicated Upper. The trigger's horrible, One of the worst I've put together(Spare Parts) and being too anxious to shoot.
Before I go again, I'll either have to smooth it out or I'll swap lowers to one I've tuned. I believe the group size can be reduced a little further
just by doing that. Since I've a Baseline Comparison now, I can tweek things and see how much better the group can get. I don't want to use a Vice or Stand because that's not "Real World". I may Slow the fire rate from my Norm though. Couldn't Hurt. But to maintain standards for these tests it'd be cheating...

BTW: I ordered another Ciener for the spare parts, from Midway. They were in stock earlier today. Not that they break. It was Cheap..........................
SO-13 in Florida
Link Posted: 5/8/2009 9:42:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2009 10:48:59 PM EDT by theskuh]
I picked up some extra high rings and a carry handle scope mount for my retro 1/12. I started by scoping my spikes dedicated and trying to shoot for groups. I only used the bulk ammo I had on hand. Fed bulk Winchester Xperts and Fed Champion blue box. These groups are shot at 25 yards.

I was struggling a bit with the trigger on my spikes dedicated it seemed a bit heavier than the trigger on my retro 1/12. I think this may have been causing more fliers in the spikes groups. Also I am running a break on that gun that I am going to open up a bit and see if groups tighten.

These are the groups that I shot.

Spikes dedicated bolt -regular GM spikes barrel - Cav arms lower and 3x9 scope




The groups here varied from the 1 1/8" group on the top right to 2" groups. These groups opened up due to fliers. I am not sure if this is due to the trigger but I am going to reshoot with the uppers on the same lower so that trigger issues will be negated.


Surplus 604 upper 1/12 twist - traditional Ciener kit - rock river lower



The Retro 1/12 didn't seem to throw as many filers as all but one group were 1" - 1 1/4" in size ( the bottom fed bulk shot 1 1/2").

I feel that shooting for groups I will have to look into a better trigger and some match ammo to get better results.
Link Posted: 5/14/2009 7:36:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2009 9:45:02 AM EDT by SpecOps-13]
Got to the Range a couple days ago. Just got to take Pictures. Lousy Light and my Best Camera Croaked the Battery. Rather than wait on it to charge I used a Cheap Digital and did a litle touch up to make the Targets black instead of Dirty Dishwater Colored. The first picture is a 3 shot group measured 3/16" Center to Center of the Bullet Holes. I wanted to make it 5 but found a bad box of Federal Bulk and had some trouble so I left it 3. The other is only 100 Rounds because of the Ammo Malfunctions, it measures 1" Outside to Outside Max of the Actual Bullet Hits. I rested the Rifle on the top of the bench for both target. 1st bad Box out of over 100 Bulk Packs so I won't complain, Yet. These are at 25 Yards. I did a Lighter Hammer Spring since I shot these. It may help some the next time but I believe this is about the best I'm going to get. Foot Surgery Monday, so somebody probably needs to take over and keep this post going.
SO-13





Link Posted: 5/15/2009 12:12:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2009 10:58:28 PM EDT by theskuh]




Link Posted: 5/15/2009 12:41:55 AM EDT
Just wanted to say thanks for doing this
Link Posted: 5/15/2009 11:05:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Just wanted to say thanks for doing this


+1 Thanks again.

Good luck on the operation, at least now you'll get handicap parking at the range!
Link Posted: 5/15/2009 11:10:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/15/2009 11:11:10 AM EDT by 45FMJoe]
Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
Couldn't stand it. I went to the range mid day today. It's hot enough here in Florida, but you have to understand, this is an Old In Door Range. No AC, It just blows Hot Air, especially during the daytime. I normally wait till it cools off a little before I go.

<snip>


Shooting Sports in Tampa?
Link Posted: 5/15/2009 4:26:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2009 10:58:58 PM EDT by theskuh]

Link Posted: 5/15/2009 11:24:06 PM EDT
Why don't you bring that thing out to Titusville and shoot with some other .22 AR's and M16's? Great range, not a chicken coup!
Link Posted: 5/16/2009 8:14:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2009 10:45:27 PM EDT by theskuh]




Link Posted: 5/21/2009 10:28:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2009 8:12:02 AM EDT by SpecOps-13]
BS: I had my foot operated on Monday, all went well. They gave me the Broken Stainless Steel Screws as Momentos. Titanium Screws and Plate went back in. Hurts pretty much when on the Ground right now.

Back to the Subject: I picked up an FN Chrome Lined, 1 in 12" Twist, 20" Barrel tonight. A friend needed to make one of our trades even out so he gave it to me for $40.00. I have a DPMS High Ride Receiver and all the parts needed to put it together. Got to thinking, we need someone who has a 1 in 12" Twist and Spike's Standard Conversion to do some accuracy testing and post the results here. Basically I used a Cheap 4x Scope, rested the rifle on top of a bench and fired 150 rounds at various rates at 25 yards to come up with a 2" hole using the 1 in 12" with a Ciener and the conditions and rate of fire for these tests. Maybe the Spikes Conversion can improve on that. Hey, I'm down for 6 weeks. Help me out here. I need Input (More to Read).
Thanx,
SO-13
Link Posted: 6/5/2009 11:57:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:28:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2009 11:55:13 PM EDT by SpecOps-13]
My overall thoughts are: It's going to be very difficult to beat a Spike's Dedicated Upper or an upper built with a Spikes Barrel and Dedicated Conversion as I did. It already matches the accuracy of both of the 10/22's that I own. It is 25% more accurate than the best I have been able to do with a Standard Non Spike's Conversion Unit in a 1 in 12" Twist .223 Barrel. It Performs Flawlessly with Spike's Dedicated Conversion Unit and Good Federal Bulk Ammo. There isn't much more that I can say, Everything is Positive, even great experience with Spike's People at the Shows, on the phone and with internet orders. even dealing with an internet order that didn't work out. One phone call and I was given to a very knowledgable Young Lady who put it on the right track. Seems that the initial person who answers the phone may not have an answer but knows who will.

I'm still Down while my Foot Surgery heals, 3 more weeks. After that I hope to continue my testing. I've installed a 6x Mil Reticle Compact Scope and dumped the Variable Monster that I started with.
I was hoping that someone would post results from tests with a Standard AR using the Spike's Plated Conversion. I would like to see if it's more accurate than the "Other Brands". I have 8 Cieners collected over the years and an Oly M261. I just can't justify buying another Standard Conversion Unit.

I'm Happy with the results I've obtained but I'll still try to improve upon them. My Old Tired Body is the limiting factor now.

SO-13
Link Posted: 6/19/2009 9:13:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2009 10:36:46 PM EDT by theskuh]
Spec did you have any problem with the bolt catch and your lopro? Mine is hanging up and keeping the bolt from closing unless I hold the bolt release pressed to the upper. I am going to take a file to the back of the bolt catch a little bit and see if I can get it to clear.

I also realized after I got this lopro that my troy rail won't work with it. So I am going to have to figure out something else for hand guards. I will probably throw a set of carbine hand guards on it for now.


ETA: A very little Dremel work to the back of the bolt catch and it seems all is well.
Link Posted: 6/19/2009 10:55:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2009 10:35:06 AM EDT
theskuh,

I didn't have any trouble with anything, Happy to hear that you found a cure so fast. I realize this may not be an option you'd consider but, UTG has a 2 piece Quad Rail that's very inexpensive, a little heavy but rock solid.
Good Shooting,
SO-13
Link Posted: 6/28/2009 9:20:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2009 9:22:09 PM EDT by SpecOps-13]
Tom (Spike's, badazzar15) sent a Spike's Chamber Adapter for me to use in testing of their Bolt Assy in a Non-Dedicated Upper. The Photo doesn't do any justice. It's Beautiful. I'm going to try to get out to the Range tomorrow. It's gonna be interesting to see how this combination will work in a 1 in 12" twist compared to a Ciener Conversion. Note the O-Rings to seal it into the Chamber...
Link Posted: 6/29/2009 9:40:13 PM EDT
Do you need to limit rapid fire or allow for cooling periods or anything with that o-ring adapter deal? What are the o-rings made of? It looks neat.

I'm considering some .22 goodness myself. This looks interesting.
Link Posted: 6/29/2009 10:25:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/30/2009 12:29:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2009 11:17:29 PM EDT by SpecOps-13]
Test: Spikes Dedicated Bolt Assy Converted With Their Chamber Adapter For Use In A Standard AR (.223/5.56) 1:12" Twist, 20" Barrel


I made it to the Range Last Night. Tried to get there late enough so it'd be cooler,,, NOT.
I didn't adjust the scope during these tests, I just used the setting "As Is", Where it was set for the Ciener Unit. That's why the hits are a little high.
The lower I was using had a Very Light Hammer Spring in it, the first round went bang. then nothing, nothing, nothing. I put the Ciener Conversion back in to verify it wasn't a problem with my Assembly of the Spikes Chamber Adapter on the Previously Dedicated Spike's Bolt. Same results with the Ciener. Changed the spring out, Put another Shoot-N-See Center up and began shooting.
I fired, resting on the bench at my established test rate trying to keep all things equil with previous sessions. This time I fired 200 rounds, the farthest hits didn't change with the last 50 rounds, So the Chamber Adapter that Tom sent from Spike's added to their Plated Bolt is actually more accurate than the best Ciener Conversion I have when fired in the same way, at the same rate.
The assembly functioned Flawlessly. The O-Rings make for a snug fit into the Upper Receiver. Meaning that you can remove the Upper without the Bolt Assy falling out. That's Nice in itself. Clean-Up was a breeze, the Plating really makes it easy. I'm not done testing yet, still a few Tricks Up My Sleeve.
SpecOps-13




Link Posted: 6/30/2009 1:45:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2009 1:48:57 PM EDT by MrMONEYman]
Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:



So the Chamber Adapter that Tom sent from Spike's added to their Plated Bolt is as accurate as the best Ciener Conversion I have.


So there is no noticeable difference in accuracy that the o-ringed chamber adapter makes, right?

eta:
I'm waiting for a couple more days to test contribute to this thread - I will be testing my self-built M1S .22 dedicated upper against my 1/9 twist DPMS and 1/12 twist retro AR. I will have one dedicated .22lr conversion kit that will have the dedicated .22lr collar, and another kit w/ the chamber adapter.

Keeping my fingers crossed that things fall into place (or more like nothing more gets added or comes up) so I can finally go test this trio out.

Link Posted: 6/30/2009 6:50:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2009 8:29:10 AM EDT by SpecOps-13]
MrMONEYman:
"So there is no noticeable difference in accuracy that the o-ringed chamber adapter makes, right?"


That's somewhat true. Here is what I found.
Their Plated Bolt is as accurate as the Best Ciener Conversion I have being fired at a slower rate than for these tests. I have 8 Cieners that were compared prior to my testing.


It will be very interesting to have your results added using M1S Parts. I'm doing my shooting by resting myself on the bench for some added stability. i load the mags to 25 and fire at a moderately fast rate to come up with an average accuracy. Same recover and shoot as I mentioned before. Not rapid fire and not slow fire. My own human error has something to do with that. I'm not as steady as I was 30 years ago, My eye sight isn't 20/15 now either.

We'll be able to relate your results better if you fire each time under similar conditions with each setup. Especially the rate of fire. You don't have to shoot exactly the same way or number of rounds as I do, just shoot the way you do each time. We can compare the 3 different rifles and get a pretty good idea of how well you'd be shooting mine and visa-versa. This will be a great way for us to compare the accuracy of Dedicated Spike's vs Dedicated M1S and the 1 in 9" and 1 in 12" . Very Cool.

The reason I shoot so many rounds for grouping is to get an average of My Ability, the Conversion/Rifle Capability and the Ammo's Consistancy. I'm using all Wal-Mart Federal Bulk for all the tests, but it'll be fine if you use something different. Doing all of this we should be able level your ability vs mine and get a good comparison of the Rifles and Conversions and the Dedicated Uppers.

Way Cool..................

SpecOps-13
Link Posted: 6/30/2009 7:25:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/30/2009 8:08:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2009 8:08:25 PM EDT by Islandboy671]
Originally Posted By badazzar15:
Now we need some Lothar Walther ST-22 testing.


I'm interested in seeing the results for this one.
Link Posted: 7/1/2009 2:03:31 AM EDT
SO13

I plan on strictly using the WallyWorld 550 Fed Value packs to do my shooting anyways - as i've been able to stash a couple of boxes away before the panic buying. I will try to replicate your method as best as I can and post results. Like I said, I will be keeping my fingers crossed that I can go out on Thursday to do some shooting.
Link Posted: 7/1/2009 11:26:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MrMONEYman:


eta:
I'm waiting for a couple more days to test contribute to this thread - I will be testing my self-built M1S .22 dedicated upper against my 1/9 twist DPMS and 1/12 twist retro AR. I will have one dedicated .22lr conversion kit that will have the dedicated .22lr collar, and another kit w/ the chamber adapter.

Keeping my fingers crossed that things fall into place (or more like nothing more gets added or comes up) so I can finally go test this trio out.



I tried this with my MGI upper. I shot a M1S 1/9" barrel with conversion kit, then replaced the barrel with a dedicated setup. This kept the trigger and optics the same.

The result: The conversion kit and barrel shot 3/4" at 25yards, while the dedicated setup shot 1" groups. This was pretty consistent with several brands of ammo.

I need to repeat the tests at 50 yards to see if the different twist rate will have more impact at longer ranges.
Link Posted: 7/6/2009 9:35:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2009 8:50:43 AM EDT by SpecOps-13]
Got to the Range for a Short time tonight. I only fired a hundred rounds. I put up some Target Centers to complete testing of 5 shot groups at 25 Yards with a 1 in 12" Twist Colt Upper and Spike's Non Dedicated Conversion Bolt Assy( I Re-Stuck the Centers on a Clean Target so They'd Show Up Better). I slowed my Rate of Fire down so I'd get the best Hits I'm capable of. The rest of the shots were at the center of the Original Target, Rapid Fire (Severe Sanity Maintenance). They Went All Over.....Raising My 94 YO Mother is Rough Lately..........

I did a little work on the lower I'd used for the initial tests of this Spike's Conversion. Smoothed out the Trigger. Musta been why it had a Light Hammer Spring in last time I went to the Range. My Bad..............

Next back to perfect the Dedicated Upper and see what it's really able to do. I'll work on that Lower this week.

Anyway, Here's a picture of the Rifle, Conversion Unit and 5 Shot Targets. The clean up on this Conversion is Eassssy.....


Thought the Bi-Pod would help but even as Short as it is,,, it was too High to use.

Added for the sticky: Too bad I didn't lay some coins out on these groups when I did the picture. I tried to find the target so I could do that but I guess somebody must have found it laying around and disposed of it for me. Anyway, I'll give my best guess at the group sizes. These are the larger Birchwood Casey Centers so the inner circle is 1 1/2". It appears that the group size ranges from just over 1/2" to about 1 1/4".




Link Posted: 7/7/2009 12:29:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2009 12:29:26 AM EDT by badazzar15]
Link Posted: 7/7/2009 1:58:04 AM EDT
I got my Spike's upper last July after i transferred to Japan. Got to shoot it in May. 200-300 rounds though it. great little shooter. i am by no means a great shot but i was hitting quarter size sticker targets at 25 yards with iron sights. tried the crap remington ammo, every round would not chamber unless i pushed the bolt closed. wally world did not have the federal packs so i got a couple american eagle packs. the american eagle fed as good as the federals i was able to get a week later. i have no pics. the rifle is locked in my safe in ny and im in Yokohama Japan right now.
Link Posted: 7/7/2009 7:47:08 PM EDT
Here is a dedicated top using the Model 1 Sales bolt. It might not be a fair comparison, since the barrel is an Anschutz 19.5" match .22LR barrel. While the upper and lower receiver do come from Spikes, it is set to shoot with the aperture target sights. The bolt design does seem a little different than the one from Spikes, especially at the rear. Here is a close-up shot of the bolt




The test target shot at 50 yards with 50 rounds during some nice East Texas winds. Each square is 1".


Link Posted: 7/7/2009 9:18:53 PM EDT
Wow that is slick!!
Link Posted: 7/7/2009 10:36:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2009 8:53:02 AM EDT by SpecOps-13]
Ok, Seriously, That's a Really Really Really Cool Rifle... Thanx for posting pictures of it and the Fantastic Group. It's the future to keep this Post going.

Now For a Little Humor. I don't mean anything by it:
That's not Fair though, I have to travel 60 miles to get a decent range that has over 25 yards.

Serious Again, I see a Lothar Walther Barrel in my future. I still have to complete the 5 Shot Groups with Spike's Standard Green Mountain Barrel. I expect that to go very well. But I guess I'll be traveling sometime in the Future for 50 yards.

I Love It.
SO-13
Link Posted: 7/8/2009 12:14:07 AM EDT
I cant help but believe that a dedicated barrel will make more of a difference in accuracy then the bolt itself. A 1/16 twist dedicated barrel just has to be better then a 1/9 or even 1/12 punched for 5.56. Now how much difference with the Walther barrel make over the standard...will be interesting to see. What I really want to see is the Walther vs the Anshultz! Those will have to be the top two Kings in the game.
Link Posted: 7/8/2009 1:01:29 AM EDT
When it comes to rimfiles, the most important things are the chamber, bore, crown, ammo, then bolt. The bolt deals with headspacing, firing pin location and resistance to recoil until the bullet has left the barrel. The way the chamber is cut and the overall quality of the rifling and bore diameter is way more important than the bolt itself. If it was not an issue, the Walther barrel would be considered the standard and not the premium option.
Link Posted: 7/8/2009 1:18:17 AM EDT
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