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Posted: 11/24/2007 8:29:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 6:41:27 PM EDT by stretch415]
I have used my ceiner kit in a few other uppers but I cannot get it to seat all the way in my Larue stealth upper. It will stick out about 1/8th" out the back of the upper and I can get it closed but I need to slam it shut. After getting it shut I try and rack the action with my PRI gasbuster CH but the bolt sticks open and I have to take the rear pin out to get it to go forward. What gives? the barrel is a GTS Operator and its a PRI gasbuster CH with Larue upper. Do I hammer it in? It was tight in my sabre defense upper but just required a good push to get it to seat although I needed something to pry it back out once I wanted to switch back.

any help would be great. Id be pretty pissed if it couldnt work in my main upper
Link Posted: 11/24/2007 8:36:31 PM EDT
different charging handle should fix the problem.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 5:51:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 5:49:41 PM EDT
I wondered about that but didnt have another one along. Thanks for the help guys
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 6:07:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stretch415:
I wondered about that but didnt have another one along. Thanks for the help guys


You said you have multiple uppers. Just swap a CH to test.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 4:52:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Magoo6541:

Originally Posted By stretch415:
I wondered about that but didnt have another one along. Thanks for the help guys


You said you have multiple uppers. Just swap a CH to test.


yep I will I was home for the weekend though and didnt have another one with me. Is the actual charging handle bigger making the ceiner stick out the back more? Im curious why exactly they dont work.
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 6:40:59 PM EDT
well a new charging handle didnt work. It is the same problem but it did reduce the amount sticking out of the upper. Here is the deal
I put the ceiner in and this is the small amount sticking out

Then I attempt to close it and this is about where it gets tight. My regular bolt is also tighter than normal but there is no wobble and everything works just fine. I have to squeeze it shut at this point to get the pin through

Then I rack the charging handle back and it sticks. It appears the ceiner stays in place but the bolt gets stuck back and I can feel the tension while pulling it back. THe only way to get it loose is to force the rear pin out and then once the tension is off it snaps back shut like normal.


Any ideas? Again this worked just fine with the exact CH and Ceiner in my Sabre defense and colt sp1 uppers
Link Posted: 11/27/2007 7:34:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2007 8:09:53 PM EDT by kblagg]
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 9:20:36 AM EDT
Check to see if the bottom of the Ciener is dragging on top of the hammer. Its possible this is what is causing the bolt not wanting to cycle. Its possible the bolt is hitting the bolt catch. I had one upper where the Ciener chamber adapter was tight in the chamber. I lubed the chamber adapter and tapped it into place. If you find the chamber adapter is to tight in the chamber you can polish the chamber adapter. Its possible the chamber is on the small size compared to your other uppers. I noticed my Ciener is still tighter in the one upper than the others but it has become easier to use. This upper shoots very good groups with the Ceiner. I have seen that most Olympic barrels have tight chambers and I noticed the Ceiner did not want to fit these barrels very well. One of the local PD's bought a couple of Olympics because they were cheap. They ended having the chamber reamed to 5.56 specs to help them function with a wider variety of ammo. Good luck, if your willing to invest the time I think you can sort out what is going on.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 1:22:15 PM EDT
Its a CMT lower parts kit in a Noveske Lower(CMT) w/ a milspec 5 position CTR stock kit. Ive got a Geissle(sp?) heavy duty 2 stage coming in the mail as soon as they hit the shelves so that will replace what I have now. If I remember right Ive used this lower with a different upper and the ceiner still worked.

When I pull the CH back it immediately shows resistance and sticks at any point in the back motion. The rear pin also becomes extremely hard to get out when it sticks almost as if its creating tension with the spring.

So I dont know WTF us up.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 5:45:46 PM EDT
I tried the upper on another lower with a 9mm hammer in it and its the exact same problem.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 5:48:30 PM EDT
I tried the upper on another lower with a 9mm hammer in it and its the exact same problem. So its not the lowers causing the problem
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 6:33:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 8:01:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2007 8:06:51 PM EDT by SWATH]
I had this exact same problem. I fixed it by filing off a little of that flat metal disk at the very back. This allowed the upper to close on the lower without putting too much forward pressure on the back, bowing the rails that the bolt rides on (that is what is causing the sticking). You see in those pics where the rectangular portion on the back disk is not flush with the upper, that needs to be almost flush for it to close freely and allow the bolt to cycle on un-bowed rails. Also I filed off some material on the bolt where the charging handle grabs it so it would work with my gasbuster. I then re-parked those areas. It works beautifully now.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 8:20:23 PM EDT
The Cieners can be a tight fit until they break in. Just lube it real well, pound it in, and it'll be O.K. It may take a good yank on the charging handle to dislodge it when you're done, but it'll get easier over time. Really, really lube it, mine seemed to soak up CLP pretty quick.
Link Posted: 11/28/2007 8:30:39 PM EDT
The Larue uppers are on the tight side.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 4:52:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWATH:
I had this exact same problem. I fixed it by filing off a little of that flat metal disk at the very back. This allowed the upper to close on the lower without putting too much forward pressure on the back, bowing the rails that the bolt rides on (that is what is causing the sticking). You see in those pics where the rectangular portion on the back disk is not flush with the upper, that needs to be almost flush for it to close freely and allow the bolt to cycle on un-bowed rails. Also I filed off some material on the bolt where the charging handle grabs it so it would work with my gasbuster. I then re-parked those areas. It works beautifully now.


That sounds exactly like what Im experiencing.

As stated I tried it on another lower with a 9mm hammer(I think its a DPMS parts kit) and it was the exact same problem.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:33:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 8:53:18 PM EDT by WallyGator]
Mine did this also, What I found on mine was that the back plate was not at 90 degrees to the rail. The part with the flat was out farther, just like in the picture. I stuck it in a vise and tapped on it to get it perpindicular, it funtions like it should now.

wg
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 4:53:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WallyGator:
Mine did this also, What I found on mine was that the back plate was not at 90 degrees to the rail. The part with the flat was out farther, just like in the picture. I stuck it in a vise and tapped on it to get it perpindicular, it funtions like it should now.

wg


It appears to be strait and it is a 6 times used kit that I just got. Had it not worked in a few other uppers and lowers already I would consider the kit could be defective but from what Ive seen and shot it is good to go.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 7:44:23 PM EDT
Hopefully I can get an answer, sorry I'm not trying to hi-jack but since this thread is running why start another.
I just got a Ciener kit this week and I'm having the same problem but it sticks out further, almost 1/4" (guessing, didn't measure), I'm using an upper that I got with an M&A kit about two years ago. At first I thought it was just tight because of it being new like others have said, so I lightly tapped on it and it wouldn't seat and then it was hard to remove. So I took the chamber adapter off and the rails with the bolt fit perfectly but the chamber adapter would not seat. Then I got the Bush Master Carbon 15 pistol out and tried the chamber adapter in that with the same results.
A friend also has a Ciener kit and he let me borrow it to compare the two, his does the same thing but drops right in his AR that he bought this year. So I know it's not the chamber adapter and it appears to be the area where the .223/5.56 bolt locks into the groves by the chamber (sorry don't know the actual name of this area).
Anyone have any ideas for a fix?
If I make this area of the chamber adapter smaller to fit my upper will I have problems if I use it on another upper if I buy others later on? I don't want to try and mod anything that can't be undone or will cause problems later on.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 7:51:27 PM EDT
My sabre defense upper required me to push it in to get it seated but then I needed something to lightly pry it out when I was done with it.

I dont know what to tell you. Sounds like you have the same thing as me only worse.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 9:13:00 PM EDT
Yeah I have to pry it out if I try to push it in as hard as I can.

The 1/4" might have been a little extreme. But if you look at the first pic, that round plate that's at the back of the 22 kit just sticks out on mine, it just touches the upper but doesn't start in.


I appreciate the reply, I'll keep an eye on this thread and see if anyone can think of anything that will help both of us.
Link Posted: 12/1/2007 10:07:55 PM EDT
I'm number three in line with the exact same problem. I'll post updates after I have a chance to work on it again.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 10:46:38 AM EDT
tag, I'm having the exact same problem, haven't had a chance lately to get to the range to test a few things
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 11:28:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2007 11:43:54 AM EDT by VASCAR2]
Here is something else to check concerning Ciener fit. I noticed a difference in accuracy in my KKF 16" barrel when using the Colt conversion kit and the Ciener kit. I measured the chamber depth on the KKF. From the end of the barrel extension to the shoulder of the chamber next to where the rifling starts was 2.220 inches. The Ciener kit measures 2.140 inches in length for the chamber adapter. The Colt conversion measured 1.867 inches. The Colt was considerabley shorter so I measured the depth of the chambers on my RRA 16" midlength and my Colt 20" HBar. The depth of these two chambers were 2.020 inches give or take a thousandth. You can see the Ciener chamber adapter is actually entering the barrel area of the two standard 5.56 barreled uppers I have.

It appears the Ciener kits forward movement into the chamber is controlled by the rails the bolt slides on in conjunction with shoulder of chamber extension (brass shell casing on the end of the Ciener). On my Ciener kits the chamber adapter would have to go into the barrel area (2.140 - 2.020 = .12 inches) .12 inches. If the chamber or bore is to small the Ciener may be failing to fully seat in the upper. You can take a fired 5.56 or .223 shell casing and measure the expanded diameter. You can compare this measurement to the outside diameter on your Ciener conversion kit. If the Ciener is larger than fired case you have found one area to fix. If the Ciener is longer than your chamber on the upper you may have to modify the Ciener to fit that upper. The way I checked the depth of the chamber was I took a long Q-tip and inserted it into the chamber to the end of the shoulder area and marked the wooden Q-tip at the end of the barrel extension with a felt tipped pen.

I know why my KKF barrel is not near as accurate if I use my Colt conversion kit compared to the Ciener. The bullet has a .353 jump to the barrel with the Colt as compared to the Cieners .08 jump. In my Colt & RRA upppers the Colt conversion only has a .153 jump and seems to be much more comparable in accuracy to my Ciener which is actually inserted into the chamber area by .12.


This may or may not be your problem but something I would look at.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 4:45:19 PM EDT
Well I got it working.
I had to put the chamber adapter thing in the drill press to spin it, then held a file against it to remove a little material at a time until it fit the chamber with slight pressure.
Then when I installed it into the rifle the bolt would bind and wouldn't close, there the disc on the back was sticking out just a little bit and it was causing the rails to flex binding the bolt. WTF!!! This time I checked the length of the frame to my friends and guess what, it was slightly longer, not much but it was noticeable just by looking at it. So I had to file down the disc so it would close, once that was done I oiled it and hand cycled it a couple dozen times to make sure the bolt closed properly.
Well I took it to Coils's firing range, the basement with a .22 steel trap thing (for testing only), and put about 60 rounds through it with 1 failure to eject. So hopefully it's fixed now.
But that is said as hell you have to mod something that much that's suppose to be "a drop in conversion", I guess quality control was a sleep that day, or maybe Ciener hired some drunken monkeys from CIA. LOL

I don't know if this would be a fix for everyone but it worked for me, hopefully it will help others out though.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 5:22:35 PM EDT
I'm hesitant to break out the files just yet, but it looks like I might need to. Coils, how much did you remove from the back of the unit?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 6:36:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RobertV77:
I'm hesitant to break out the files just yet, but it looks like I might need to. Coils, how much did you remove from the back of the unit?

+1 and do you refinish it afterwards?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 6:47:34 PM EDT
Why would you want to lead up such a high quality barrel?
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 9:03:15 PM EDT
I didn't measure it before I started filing but I compaired it to my friends and there's about a .010" difference, so it's not much, I didn't file it to evenly either I'm getting .008" in the center where the weld is.
Another thing to look at is the hole where the recoil spring guide rod sticks in, on mine it got filed down so the pin is almost flush with the back (it's still below the surface), before I started I remember it sat down in further.



I'm not worried about refinishing it yet, I want to test it some more, but I'll most likely just keep it oiled or cold blue it for now then repark it later.
Link Posted: 12/2/2007 9:13:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Why would you want to lead up such a high quality barrel?


I don't understand why so many people keep saying "lead up the barrel" when using .22 LR? Almost all the .22 ammo on the market now is copper plated and no lead contacts the barrel.
The worst thing about shooting .22 in a barrel that has a gas port is the powder fouling the gas port and that's one reason to shoot a few .223 rounds to hopefully blow this crud out of the gas port & tube.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 8:41:40 AM EDT
Basicly it sounds like you filed it till it was flush with the back of the upper. It also seems you filed only the area that was protruding from the charging handle area? bty thanks for taking the initative first.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:31:41 AM EDT

Basicly it sounds like you filed it till it was flush with the back of the upper.

That sounds accurate. But I wasn't compairing it to the back of the upper, I filed a little then installed it into the rifle to see if the bolt was still binding, remove it and file some more until the bolt cycled and I was happy with it.

It also seems you filed only the area that was protruding from the charging handle area?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the "charging handle area", I'm guessing you mean the top part of the disc on the back of the conversion bolt assembly?
I tried to file the back of the disc as even as possible, I think the weld that holds the disc to the rails is harder and didn't cut as fast as the rest of it.

bty thanks for taking the initative first.

Your welcome and I hope it can help someone else.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 8:28:13 AM EDT
i had the same problem with my g/f del-ton upper. but not on my cmmg. you have a chrome lined bore? if you do then it just the differences in chamber thicknesses when chrome lining.
Link Posted: 12/20/2007 6:27:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AWDTerror:
i had the same problem with my g/f del-ton upper. but not on my cmmg. you have a chrome lined bore? if you do then it just the differences in chamber thicknesses when chrome lining.


I ran the same kit in a Sabre defense chrome lined upper and it worked fine. Im going to attempt to grind it down some. Hopefully its seating into the upper just fine and is just a little longer. It barely fit in my sabre defense upper but dropped right in my dads SP1
Link Posted: 12/22/2007 6:55:32 PM EDT
got it ground down and it works perfect now.
Link Posted: 12/23/2007 2:58:38 PM EDT
Stretch, did you grind only on the back plate or on the chamber adapter?
Link Posted: 12/23/2007 5:15:59 PM EDT
I took the back of it to a bench grinder. Made it even with the rear of the upper and not a single malfuction with almost no lube and federal bulk. It is my first time out with a Aimpoint and I made a 50yd kill on a rabbit and had no problem at 50yds hitting 4x4" spinners. God I love shooting all day with almost no cost involved
Link Posted: 12/23/2007 9:07:14 PM EDT
Sounds great. Hopefully I'll be joining in on the fun soon.
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