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Posted: 9/24/2011 12:11:07 PM EST
I am looking to the experience of the masses who have handled both. I have a thing for forward charging handles and pistons, hence why I'm lookin at these two as my next rifle. I like both conceptually, the bear{which I haven't handled} is pretty slick(though I am not a fan of quad rails, but nature of the beast i suppose) and the ACR, which I have handled, I am a fan of (especially whenever Bushmaster delivers the promise) I like the ergonomics a lot.{and I can get a folding stock std version for 1600}
Anyway, any thoughts, suggestions, or things I should consider that would help me choose between the two? |
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I own an Adcor Bear, but have not handled an ACR.
I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from other folks on this, but here's something to consider: the forward charging handle on the Bear folds into the rails. The fact that it folds in makes it nice and flush when not needed, however it also makes the handle harder to use in a hurry, especially if you are wearing gloves. This makes me wonder when one is suppose to actually use the forward charging handle on the Bear. It seems more like a "convenience feature". That is, a feature used while at the range when conditions are comfortable, but not a feature one would actually use in a fighting situation. I've actually stopped using it since I don't want to develop a bad habit. Also, Adcor used to promote this feature heavily in all of it's marketing, but I recently noticed that Adcor started selling a "G.I." version of the Bear with or without a forward changing handle: http://www.adcorindustries.com/wordpress/index.php/products/bear-gi-elite/ so it would seem there are those that simply do not want this extra feature. Rear charging handles are not so bad. They are non-reciprocating (obviously), and don't interfere with optics and other mounts. What are the advantages for a forward charging handle? You should take a Bear for a test drive and decide for yourself. But if you really have a thing for side charging handles, you may prefer the ACR since it was designed from the ground up to have a side charging handle and looks like it is easily used even while wearing gloves. I've heard the placement of the safety on the ACR is super annoying, however. Have you also considered a SCAR? I'm not a fan of the reciprocating handle on the SCAR, but otherwise it appears to be a great weapon. |
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I am actually having a tough time finding someone in my area that has a Bear. I'm going to have to go to bigger gun shows. I didn't think about how flush the charging handle sits. I can see how that could be difficult to use in a high stress situation even if you practiced malfunction drills a lot.
The forward charging handle thing stems from the amount of malfunction drills my shooting buddy and I do. The rear handle has always given me problems doing that quickly. However, when we ran his father's PTRS we found that the fwd charging handle, coupled with an "extended arm" grip rather than magwell, it was a more fluid transition. That pretty much made up my mind for a fwd charging handle for the next rifle. From what the owner of the acr I handled told me, its safety location was not so awkward if you put your finger in the little alcove in front of the trigger where the bolt release is rather than on the side of the receiver. A know your gun thing I suppose. I have mixed feelings about the scar. I can't really say anything bad about the rifle, though it would have been nice if it had a non reciprocating handle but that is personal preference. At the same time it just doesn't really do it for me, I"m not sure why. |
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I didn't know they had a DI version of the Adcor rifle. I thought it was a piston gun. At least when I saw it at shot last Jan it was a piston gun.
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callmenoshie: "saying that females have the potential to be "bat shit crazy" is like saying the sky has the potential to be blue."
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Originally Posted By slappomatt:
I didn't know they had a DI version of the Adcor rifle. I thought it was a piston gun. At least when I saw it at shot last Jan it was a piston gun. Ya, they just came out with them, I think the pic I posted up above is a DI |
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I've read a forum on m4carbines of a person having issues with the adcor. Some of it has to do with fit and finish and QC issues.
But someone needs to be a guinea pig That's a deal breaker for me. Let's face it, it's a new rifle for them and you will assume they might be issues and adcor should take care of their customers. Originally Posted By andrewhyatt89:
I am looking to the experience of the masses who have handled both. I have a thing for forward charging handles and pistons, hence why I'm lookin at these two as my next rifle. I like both conceptually, the bear{which I haven't handled} is pretty slick(though I am not a fan of quad rails, but nature of the beast i suppose) and the ACR, which I have handled, I am a fan of (especially whenever Bushmaster delivers the promise) I like the ergonomics a lot.{and I can get a folding stock std version for 1600} Anyway, any thoughts, suggestions, or things I should consider that would help me choose between the two? |
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I own an ACR and have handled the BEAR. As mentioned above, the fact that the forward charging handle on the BEAR springs closed is a showstopper for me. I was looking forward to checking one out, but when I ran across that, it was really a downer. No way to use it expeditiouisly under stress. I don't know who is having issues with the location of the charging handle on the ACR. I have always found it quick and intuitive. Perhaps it's a problem on the enhanced handguard, as I run the Magpul one. I could see where you could scrape some stuff of knuckles/fingers without covers on the rails, but that would be true of either system.
Unfortunately, I haven't heard much positive about the BEAR since it released, though it seems great in concept. I do love my ACR though. JM2CW. |
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The BEAR piston system is a solution looking for a problem. High quality short stroke piston systems do not have carrier tilt problems and work without the added weight of Adcors "overengineered, under built" philosophy. The thing reminds me more of a SIG then something like a 416. Wonder if that's why they figured they'd join the DI game.
-W |
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I have no experience with either system. I have seen negative press on the Adcor on M4C which we all know has a anti piston agenda, but on lightfighter if you read some of the AARs for the carbine courses you will read a lot of bad things about the ACR, like none have made it through a single course without some kind of issue. I think you have six in one hand and a half dozen in the other.
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Originally Posted By tvfreakarms:
I've read a forum on m4carbines of a person having issues with the adcor. Some of it has to do with fit and finish and QC issues. But someone needs to be a guinea pig That's a deal breaker for me. Let's face it, it's a new rifle for them and you will assume they might be issues and adcor should take care of their customers. Originally Posted By andrewhyatt89:
I am looking to the experience of the masses who have handled both. I have a thing for forward charging handles and pistons, hence why I'm lookin at these two as my next rifle. I like both conceptually, the bear{which I haven't handled} is pretty slick(though I am not a fan of quad rails, but nature of the beast i suppose) and the ACR, which I have handled, I am a fan of (especially whenever Bushmaster delivers the promise) I like the ergonomics a lot.{and I can get a folding stock std version for 1600} Anyway, any thoughts, suggestions, or things I should consider that would help me choose between the two? Pretty hillarious, this is from the other thread at m4c.net "Secondly, as I have spent some time manipulating this weapon, I have noticed that the front charging handle cover has become worn and a small amount of metal has become exposed on the handle itself. This has caused a vast amount metal to be removed from the front rail where the front charging handle comes into contact with it at closing (the metal being removed looks like chunks have been taken out, and there are flakes of metal all over the rail itself). I asked ADCOR if pulling the front charging handle back and letting it go was a proper way of manipulating the weapon, they assured me it was, and that metal should not be coming off. ADCOR initially explained to me that this sounds like a failure of some sort. I have only pulled the front charging handle back and let it go no more than two dozen times for it to get to this point. I do not understand how this is a failure, it appears to be the result of the natural design of the weapon that causes this to happen. Each time that the forward charging handle is pulled back and let go, new metal dimples appear and more metal is taken off each time. I could see after doing this around a hundred times, that there would no longer be a shelf there for the charging handle to hold onto." Its funny because I had the exact same problem on my THIRD adcor upper, and the VP of Adcor was as dismissive as he possibly could be, swearing that it wasnt an issue at all and was only "FINISH WEAR". One of the many reasons i ditched my Adcor upper as quickly as possible. My upper was literally eating itself alive just cycling the action by hand, i didnt want to see how much material would be left in a year.... also from that thread: ".... came to the conclusion that I needed to send my rifle in to have the lower replaced because he said that the internal mag well should be smooth, and that metal shaving should not becoming off of the rail where I described. I went ahead and sent the rifle back over the long Labor Day weekend. ...Jerry and Rick (VP of sales who use to work for COLT and FNH) contacted me and told me that nothing was wrong with the rifle and they were unwilling to do anything about the issues." That sounds oddly familiar to me! same BS they wanted to fix mine too and then gave me sh*t about it when it got back to them. Sad. Sad "...I guess I have the privilege of being their first refund; which they still are trying to figure out how to give me. ADCOR told me that because they have never issued someone a refund, they are unsure of how to do it (it seems to me they never thought someone would have a problem with their "Perfect" rifle). So far, they have contacted the company I bought the weapon from, and are going to give them a credit and make them give me the refund (so they do not loose any money in the process). The company I bought the rifle from says this is an unconventional business practice, and if the rifle was sent back to the manufacturer, that the refund should come from them. ADCOR's website states that if you are not completely satisfied with their product for any reason within 30 days that they will issue you a refund. This doesn't seem to be the case. " The first thing they wanted to do was cut me a check for a refund. I didnt buy it from them either, Rick said it was a piece of cake, send in the upper, cut a personal check to me, and this was almost TWO MONTHS AGO |
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Originally Posted By jabara571:
Originally Posted By tvfreakarms:
I've read a forum on m4carbines of a person having issues with the adcor. Some of it has to do with fit and finish and QC issues. But someone needs to be a guinea pig That's a deal breaker for me. Let's face it, it's a new rifle for them and you will assume they might be issues and adcor should take care of their customers. Originally Posted By andrewhyatt89:
I am looking to the experience of the masses who have handled both. I have a thing for forward charging handles and pistons, hence why I'm lookin at these two as my next rifle. I like both conceptually, the bear{which I haven't handled} is pretty slick(though I am not a fan of quad rails, but nature of the beast i suppose) and the ACR, which I have handled, I am a fan of (especially whenever Bushmaster delivers the promise) I like the ergonomics a lot.{and I can get a folding stock std version for 1600} Anyway, any thoughts, suggestions, or things I should consider that would help me choose between the two? Pretty hillarious, this is from the other thread at m4c.net "Secondly, as I have spent some time manipulating this weapon, I have noticed that the front charging handle cover has become worn and a small amount of metal has become exposed on the handle itself. This has caused a vast amount metal to be removed from the front rail where the front charging handle comes into contact with it at closing (the metal being removed looks like chunks have been taken out, and there are flakes of metal all over the rail itself). I asked ADCOR if pulling the front charging handle back and letting it go was a proper way of manipulating the weapon, they assured me it was, and that metal should not be coming off. ADCOR initially explained to me that this sounds like a failure of some sort. I have only pulled the front charging handle back and let it go no more than two dozen times for it to get to this point. I do not understand how this is a failure, it appears to be the result of the natural design of the weapon that causes this to happen. Each time that the forward charging handle is pulled back and let go, new metal dimples appear and more metal is taken off each time. I could see after doing this around a hundred times, that there would no longer be a shelf there for the charging handle to hold onto." Its funny because I had the exact same problem on my THIRD adcor upper, and the VP of Adcor was as dismissive as he possibly could be, swearing that it wasnt an issue at all and was only "FINISH WEAR". One of the many reasons i ditched my Adcor upper as quickly as possible. My upper was literally eating itself alive just cycling the action by hand, i didnt want to see how much material would be left in a year.... Good for you man, I know the ADCOR upper has givin you way too many problems, plus the constant run around with them. Did you end up getting another piston upper? TheEVILONE hasn't been around awhile, if he saw this thread his head would probably explode. |
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Originally Posted By NorthStaR209:
Good for you man, I know the ADCOR upper has givin you way too many problems, plus the constant run around with them. Did you end up getting another piston upper? TheEVILONE hasn't been around awhile, if he saw this thread his head would probably explode. LOL, i bet he would, that guy is a Die hard supporter, more power to him i guess! I didnt get another piston AR. I already had a SCAR so im sticking with that, went back to a DI AR15 for my backup weapon and couldnt be happier! It sucked tho, i ended up losing about $200 on the upper when i sold it off. It was an expensive expensive lesson to learn! |
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Better watch it, don't voice anything contrary to what they want you to say or you will be banned.
Originally Posted By Sleeper396: I have no experience with either system. I have seen negative press on the Adcor on M4C which we all know has a anti piston agenda, but on lightfighter if you read some of the AARs for the carbine courses you will read a lot of bad things about the ACR, like none have made it through a single course without some kind of issue. I think you have six in one hand and a half dozen in the other. |
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Originally Posted By TNRonin:
Better watch it, don't voice anything contrary to what they want you to say or you will be banned. Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
I have no experience with either system. I have seen negative press on the Adcor on M4C which we all know has a anti piston agenda, but on lightfighter if you read some of the AARs for the carbine courses you will read a lot of bad things about the ACR, like none have made it through a single course without some kind of issue. I think you have six in one hand and a half dozen in the other. LOL Pistons cause corrosion son, get it skraight. I guess I earned that ban. |
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Originally Posted By jabara571:
Pretty hillarious, this is from the other thread at m4c.net "Secondly, as I have spent some time manipulating this weapon, I have noticed that the front charging handle cover has become worn and a small amount of metal has become exposed on the handle itself. This has caused a vast amount metal to be removed from the front rail where the front charging handle comes into contact with it at closing (the metal being removed looks like chunks have been taken out, and there are flakes of metal all over the rail itself). I asked ADCOR if pulling the front charging handle back and letting it go was a proper way of manipulating the weapon, they assured me it was, and that metal should not be coming off. ADCOR initially explained to me that this sounds like a failure of some sort. I have only pulled the front charging handle back and let it go no more than two dozen times for it to get to this point. I do not understand how this is a failure, it appears to be the result of the natural design of the weapon that causes this to happen. Each time that the forward charging handle is pulled back and let go, new metal dimples appear and more metal is taken off each time. I could see after doing this around a hundred times, that there would no longer be a shelf there for the charging handle to hold onto." Its funny because I had the exact same problem on my THIRD adcor upper, and the VP of Adcor was as dismissive as he possibly could be, swearing that it wasnt an issue at all and was only "FINISH WEAR". One of the many reasons i ditched my Adcor upper as quickly as possible. My upper was literally eating itself alive just cycling the action by hand, i didnt want to see how much material would be left in a year.... ... I have the same exact wear on my handle. I'm not convinced it will cause any problems, but it's something Adcor should address in a v2 design. While I think Adcor has a couple of tweaks to make, I will say that I'm quite satisfied with the overall operation of my Bear. I have a little over 700 rounds through it, and not one failure of any kind. |
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Originally Posted By DeltaAlphaNovember:
[ I have the same exact wear on my handle. I'm not convinced it will cause any problems, but it's something Adcor should address in a v2 design. While I think Adcor has a couple of tweaks to make, I will say that I'm quite satisfied with the overall operation of my Bear. I have a little over 700 rounds through it, and not one failure of any kind. I have the same wear, although to me it looks like extremely minor finish removal, after about 600 rounds. The weapon is accurate and has functioned 100% for me so I really have no complaints. Guess I'll see as time goes on. |
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Originally Posted By jaflowers:
Originally Posted By DeltaAlphaNovember:
[ I have the same exact wear on my handle. I'm not convinced it will cause any problems, but it's something Adcor should address in a v2 design. While I think Adcor has a couple of tweaks to make, I will say that I'm quite satisfied with the overall operation of my Bear. I have a little over 700 rounds through it, and not one failure of any kind. I have the same wear, although to me it looks like extremely minor finish removal, after about 600 rounds. The weapon is accurate and has functioned 100% for me so I really have no complaints. Guess I'll see as time goes on. you must not have the same wear, because i was getting aluminum shavings and missing chunks, NOT FINISH WEAR |
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