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12/6/2019 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 9/9/2019 2:22:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 2:22:41 PM EST by aeyoung]
So a ‘wholesaler’ came up to me at the Phoenix show this weekend and offered me some ‘colt’ new a1 uppers and showed me this. It is a black finish but that didn’t really scare me that much due to it possibly being a refinish. I asked how much and he said $60......

Then I really started looking at it and noticing it was not a colt like he claimed. He mentioned he ordered them from a distributor and had them made and then back tracked realizing what he said and me asking him more about it.

I ended up buying this one and getting the guys card and relaying the info to Colt so they are aware

I have yet to see a faked colt upper in a1 configuration and do know there are flat tops out there currently so hopefully this stops before it gets out of hand.

Figured this would be a good place to let everyone know and spread the word.

Key points: sharp edges, forge marks on inside of handle smoothed, forge marks on rear area still present, valleys in charging handle area, no proof marks, different edges near the port area, arrow and l/r different softer.

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Link Posted: 9/9/2019 2:56:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 2:57:24 PM EST by drw1006]
Good gawd.....

I hate this crap.

Thanks Alex for posting this and contacting Colt. I hope the thief gets a letter from Colt legal.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:32:22 PM EST
Scammers always trying to make a buck.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:36:55 PM EST
Hey!

Do the C H forgings come off with your fingernail like the fake M4 uppers?
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:39:51 PM EST
if you don't want it, I'll take it off your hands...Bill
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:57:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By drw1006:
Hey!

Do the C H forgings come off with your fingernail like the fake M4 uppers?
View Quote
No I tried with a few items to remove it and it didn’t come off
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:57:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2bnag:
if you don't want it, I'll take it off your hands...Bill
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It is not for sale. I bought it knowing it was a fake to educate everyone on it
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:59:45 PM EST
Thanks for watching out Alex.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 4:06:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By aeyoung:

No I tried with a few items to remove it and it didn’t come off
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Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 4:15:16 PM EST
Does it have M4 feed ramps?
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 5:06:07 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By handyandy:
Does it have M4 feed ramps?
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No completely flat. No feed ramps
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 5:22:45 PM EST
I'm amazed he could get them made at that price point. Why pretend it's a colt? You would sell a few unmarked repos at $60 each.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 5:29:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 5:32:21 PM EST by Frens]
Any chance it could come from the same supplier that Brownells use for his retro line?

I remember watching a MilitaryArmsChannel review on YT and the upper was marked “C A” and that sounded weird..

Link Posted: 9/9/2019 6:10:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Frens:
Any chance it could come from the same supplier that Brownells use for his retro line?

I remember watching a MilitaryArmsChannel review on YT and the upper was marked “C A” and that sounded weird..

https://i.postimg.cc/hvfx9tjP/7686-B25-C-8-BCA-46-E8-83-DD-B424-A3-B6-CD7-A.jpg
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Interesting. I don’t have a Brownells so never noticed it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 7:03:02 PM EST
With pre-ban lowers going for $800 in Massachusetts, and pre-86 M-16 lowers running $20k, I guessed a while back that lowers were being forged. This is intriguing, but doesn't surprise me @ all.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 7:14:16 PM EST
What makes me 100% sure these are fakes is the "C" "H". Those have not been made for decades.

If it were a "C" "A" it might have been like the USGI uppers such as these sold by Fulton Armory (FA).

Fulton M16A1 USGI contract uppers

Disclaimer: I have bought several things over the years from them (FA) and all have been top notch. Not implying (FA) is a scammer in ANY way, shape or form.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 7:25:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 7:57:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 7:58:07 PM EST by mike_nds]
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 8:17:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 8:20:09 PM EST
I, for one, would buy them all day long for $60 a piece. It wouldn't make any difference to me who made them as I am building for myself with no intention of selling or decieving...Bill
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 8:50:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 9:16:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 9:20:04 PM EST by drw1006]
Nice! You guys make nice stuff fo sho!
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 11:54:12 PM EST
Are these Airsoft? Some of the airsoft guns have supposedly been "banned for importation" because they are too close to the real deal.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 7:33:11 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By USGI:
Are these Airsoft? Some of the airsoft guns have supposedly been "banned for importation" because they are too close to the real deal.
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I doubt it. Same weight and has the gas hole.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 10:58:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2bnag:
I, for one, would buy them all day long for $60 a piece. It wouldn't make any difference to me who made them as I am building for myself with no intention of selling or decieving...Bill
View Quote
The problem is at some point whether it's many months or many years from now they're going to be back out in the wild and we don't need that. There is no place in this hobby for forgeries.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 11:13:05 AM EST
I guess I am just thick headed because I don't understand what the problem is. We all build "fakes" (retro) everyday. We keep the engravers busy duplicating roll marks so the lowers look like the originals. We try to match colors to the originals and use vintage parts to duplicate a model that is long out of production. The closer we can build one to the original, the better. So, who cares who made these uppers?
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 11:21:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2019 11:29:25 AM EST by drw1006]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2bnag:
I guess I am just thick headed because I don't understand what the problem is. We all build "fakes" (retro) everyday. We keep the engravers busy duplicating roll marks so the lowers look like the originals. We try to match colors to the originals and use vintage parts to duplicate a model that is long out of production. The closer we can build one to the original, the better. So, who cares who made these uppers?
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This is a well made point and I will try to give my perspective on your comment,

The retro market is hot and people want to build a clone as correct as they can to the original, using original parts. The lower receiver cannot be exactly duplicated due to being a machine gun and limited by the NFA. The copy is not completely correct, sear hole and such... People KNOW this is a reproduction.

Now the other parts are not regulated by the 1986 ban on ownership of new machine guns unless you are the government of course. So people can get real parts and want real confirmed retro parts and not fakes.

They are out there and command a premium. If you want to build a fake with truly fake parts go ahead but the point of the thread and the other was to point out "buyer beware" to the Colt purists.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 12:23:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2bnag:
I guess I am just thick headed because I don't understand what the problem is. We all build "fakes" (retro) everyday. We keep the engravers busy duplicating roll marks so the lowers look like the originals. We try to match colors to the originals and use vintage parts to duplicate a model that is long out of production. The closer we can build one to the original, the better. So, who cares who made these uppers?
View Quote
Agree. Clone is a clone and will never be the real deal.
The only issue I see is price.. people will pay an extra for a Colt part because of the quality/history/rarity.. if its a copy should not be sold as original.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 1:40:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2019 1:41:25 PM EST by Kalashnikev101]
I think I actually got one of these on an upper from a vendor with a decent reputation.

I could see where they ground off the forge code, but there was the other same weirdness going on with the dimensions and the look externally.

I wasn't really happy, and thought about sending it back... but my mind was made up when the inner diameter was too tight to accept a BCG.

Back it went.

More hilarity- I then set out to build that same upper myself... bought a black slick side from Brownells... and it was so out of spec the rear takedown pin of a Colt lower didn't line up and there was a huge gap to the rear.

And back it went too.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 2:17:54 PM EST
It's one thing to buy a reproduction which is sold and marketed as a reproduction. It's entirely another thing to buy a counterfeit, which is being sold and marketed as genuine.

The two things are not equal to each other.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 2:44:37 PM EST
I'd be worried about the actual alloy used to make them. A lower not so much but the upper failing would be a bad day.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 2:47:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 3:32:41 PM EST
I doubt Colt can really do anything other than send a cease and desist order to whoever is selling these uppers as being Colt products. Selling them as A1 uppers that happen to have certain forge marks, the "C" and "H" doesn't seem to violate any patents or trademarks, as long as the seller doesn't misrepresent the manufacturer as being Colt. Let the Buyer be ware.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 10:09:26 PM EST
for 60 bucks I don't think anyone would expect it to be a genuine Colt.....
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 10:29:29 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2bnag:
for 60 bucks I don't think anyone would expect it to be a genuine Colt.....
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The point of the thread is this is a fake. Price does not matter and I should not have included that.

Same reason being I did not include the persons card so people don’t reach out and buy them to sell them as real.

The point is to keep them off the market, not that they are a ‘good’ deal.
Link Posted: 9/10/2019 11:01:07 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By aeyoung:

The point of the thread is this is a fake. Price does not matter and I should not have included that.

Same reason being I did not include the persons card so people don’t reach out and buy them to sell them as real.

The point is to keep them off the market, not that they are a ‘good’ deal.
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You are not going to keep them off the market, those of us in the know won't buy them, but there are people out there besides us that will also buy them, when companies invest money, they are going to figure out how to sell to recoup their investment, no matter what any of us say or do.
Link Posted: 9/11/2019 5:17:24 AM EST
I thought the original A1 m16 colts did not have a forward assist. I own an original 1966 Colt SP1 and it has no forward assist.
Link Posted: 9/11/2019 7:30:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pthomas68:
I thought the original A1 m16 colts did not have a forward assist. I own an original 1966 Colt SP1 and it has no forward assist.
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The forward assist, to my knowledge, came in starting with the XM16E1 around '64.
Link Posted: 9/11/2019 7:41:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2019 7:43:49 AM EST by Tigwelder1971]
Link Posted: 9/11/2019 8:05:41 AM EST
I bought the Fulton Armory ones a few years back and don't recall the NDS on them. So I just looked: You have to get the ones that say 'USGI Contractor' to not have the NDS on them.

https://www.fulton-armory.com/upperreceivera1usginofanocd-2-1.aspx

Now I gotta check mine to be sure. Nothing against NODAK (I has some of your parts and they is nice) but if I ordered USGI and I got NDS, I'd feel that the product was misrepresented.

Kudos to NDS for keeping an eye on these threads.
Link Posted: 9/11/2019 8:10:15 AM EST
I believe there are more crooks, fakes and thieves in the gun business then there is in all other forms of commerce combined.
Link Posted: 9/11/2019 11:53:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jos51700:
I bought the Fulton Armory ones a few years back and don't recall the NDS on them. So I just looked: You have to get the ones that say 'USGI Contractor' to not have the NDS on them.

https://www.fulton-armory.com/upperreceivera1usginofanocd-2-1.aspx

Now I gotta check mine to be sure. Nothing against NODAK (I has some of your parts and they is nice) but if I ordered USGI and I got NDS, I'd feel that the product was misrepresented.

Kudos to NDS for keeping an eye on these threads.
View Quote
That's a C7 upper, it has the brass deflector. I don't believe NDS ever made C7 forgings or uppers.
Link Posted: 9/12/2019 7:18:57 AM EST
I don’t think this is very cool. To the untrained eye or less knowledgeable folks, kids that are looking to build a retro style gun this could be sold for much more than that $60 price. Thanks for sharing with us.
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