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Posted: 4/6/2014 5:49:13 AM EST
Dear all,

sorry in advice for my bad english, i'm an italian guys, and i'm new inside weapons word and Ar 15.
Before to open this topic i try to read into the archive, so i hope i haven't violate forum rule's.
Few times ago, i bought my first Colt Ar 15, a model 613. From its serial number, 4'639'xxx, i know that it was produced around 1971, and used by Malaysian Army (range number 4'638'401 - 4'643'400)... ... thanks to AR15.com ;)
Immediatly i start to search informations about what could be the story about this model (613 - Malaysian Army), but until now i found a lot of contradictory answers, expecially about its use.
For a lot of persons, wich i told with, this Ar 15 model (613 - Malaysian Army) was used during Vietnam War, and after sell to Malaysia...
These for me it's very strange, i think that Colt produced this rifle in USA and sell it directly to Malaysia... ...in addition, from what i know, Malaysian Army weren't engaged on Vietnam during the war...

Please could you help me to clarify which could be the story?

Thanks a lot in advance,
from Italy

Matteo

Link Posted: 4/6/2014 8:29:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2014 8:36:32 AM EST by OlGunner]
Matteo, welcome to the retro forum!
I am not an expert by any means, but the 613 you have (and congratulations on owning a classic rifle!) was the "export" version of the Colt 603 used by our troops in Vietnam.

As far as I know, the model number was the only difference in the rifles, so what you have is identical to what our military used--except for the rollmark.
And as you guessed, the 613 would have been manufactured by Colt and exported directly to Malaysia.  It was not first used in VN and then sent to Malaysia as a "surplus" arm.

Again, this is what I understand, but I'm sure others here can confirm the information--or correct me.

If you can manage, I'm sure we'd all love to see photos of your rifle!

(Edited to add):  According to one of the master historians here, the Malaysian contract was filled just as Colt was changing over to barrels with a chrome bore.  Is your barrel marked "C MP C" or "C MP B"?
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 8:32:33 AM EST
Many 613s were used in movies like 'Platoon' for this very reason. WHo knows? maybe yours was in a movie...
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 8:48:21 AM EST
Check with Colt.  www.colt.com  Perhaps they can give you a some information.  I know they offer historical archive services on guns but do charge for that service.  Is your rifle full auto or semi auto?

Brett
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 8:50:30 AM EST
Another note, since I realize you only referred to your rifle as the 613.  When this same design (603) was adopted by the US Military, it was given the military name "M16-A1."  (The "M16" did not have a forward assist mechanism on the side of the upper receiver.  The "M16 A1" does have the forward assist.)
So if you're looking for the history of the model, you might search for "M16 A1" as well as "603" and "613."  I'm sure there are a LOT of stories out there about these rifles!

Incidentally, we used the A1 in our military well into the 1980s, when we started replacing it with the A2 model, and you'll still find a few in service even today (although they usually have a lot of replaced parts).

For many of us, the M16 A1 is the classic representation of "retro" ARs.
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 9:05:54 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GetGunz:
Check with Colt.  www.colt.com  Perhaps they can give you a some information.  I know they offer historical archive services on guns but do charge for that service.  Is your rifle full auto or semi auto?

Brett
View Quote


Unfortunately, Colt won't give private owners info on their automatic firearms.  Seems damned stupid to me, but they'll sell you a letter of authenticity for an SP1 but not a 601 (I know--I've tried!).  They might give general info about the model, however, or they might be more cooperative with, say, a museum.  But don't expect much on a specific serial number owned by a civilian.

And not to answer for the OP, but the 614s for the Malaysia contract were all select-fire, of course.  To be owned by civilians in Italy, however, I believe it would have had to be neutered.  The de-mil rules there, however, are much more reasonable than here in the States.  While that receiver would be a "machine gun" here regardless of whether it contained automatic parts, over there it's a semi-auto as long as you pull the sear or do other minor (non-destructive) mods.

Don't know about the automatic laws there, though.  I believe they can have these as non-functional dewats, or as working semi-autos, but I don't know about legal machine guns.

Am looking forward to photos!
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 9:51:51 AM EST
Thank you for quickly answers ;)
It's only semi auto; automatic mode is deactivated because, for civilians, in Italy is prohibited.
Barrel is marked CMP chrome bore.
I make these quickly photos, sorry for bad quality:
https://imageshack.com/i/n12ionj
https://imageshack.com/i/mu08sqj
https://imageshack.com/i/0moc8hj
https://imageshack.com/i/0ykkdzj
https://imageshack.com/i/0xsouwj
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 9:55:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2014 9:57:55 AM EST by boywonder777]
hmm, can't find the direct url to post from imageshack.
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 11:05:27 AM EST
Awesome rifle!  I wish they allowed neutered lowers here
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 11:14:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sgt911:
Awesome rifle!  I wish they allowed neutered lowers here
View Quote


I'm with you.
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 11:21:47 AM EST
Thanks ;)
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 1:13:45 PM EST
Very nice rifle and a great piece of history.
The upper, however, doesn't appear to be original to the lower.  The lower is circa '71, but the CH forge code and C MP Chrome Bore barrel would be '74 or later.

The Italian importer, Nuova Jager, has some very interesting things for sale, including a military M16A1 with accessories, an Israeli carbine and this very, very, very low-SN Colt-Armalite Model 01.
(Remember, the SNs started at 000101.)

Link Posted: 4/6/2014 1:24:21 PM EST
I wonder if you could import a deac from them - like the ppsh-41?
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 2:26:27 PM EST
OK, so dumb question - Is that a pin drilled and inserted to stop the safety from rotating to the full auto position?  Is that the only mod required or is the auto sear pulled as well in Italy?  Seems the pin would work its way out if the sear is not in place.
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 2:29:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2014 2:29:47 PM EST by Morg308]
The pin is larger than a regular one - if you look at the pics. I am guessing it's some sort of rivet in truth. No auto-sear in the gun.
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 2:39:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2014 2:41:18 PM EST by Sinister]
Matteo,

I trained with Malaysian Special Forces in the late 80s.  Paratroop and Ranger Soldiers carried M16A1 rifles while officers and NCOs carried M16A1 carbines.

Nations using M16A1s were either given or loaned them as foreign military assistance or they bought them outright under export Foreign Military Sales (FMS).

Ammunition was M193 made in Malaysia.
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 3:37:46 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Morg308:
The pin is larger than a regular one - if you look at the pics. I am guessing it's some sort of rivet in truth. No auto-sear in the gun.
View Quote


Almost looks like the auto sear block Colt put in some of their Sporter 2's
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 3:40:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:


Almost looks like the auto sear block Colt put in some of their Sporter 2's
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Originally Posted By Morg308:
The pin is larger than a regular one - if you look at the pics. I am guessing it's some sort of rivet in truth. No auto-sear in the gun.


Almost looks like the auto sear block Colt put in some of their Sporter 2's


It does, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 4/6/2014 3:43:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Morg308:


It does, doesn't it?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Morg308:
Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Originally Posted By Morg308:
The pin is larger than a regular one - if you look at the pics. I am guessing it's some sort of rivet in truth. No auto-sear in the gun.


Almost looks like the auto sear block Colt put in some of their Sporter 2's


It does, doesn't it?


Between the auto sear block, the large FCG pins, and the large front pivot pin, Colt sure went to a lot of effort to prevent conversions there for a while.
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 8:58:37 AM EST
Sorry for delay, no, for to avoid auto, nuova jager, in addition to the rivet, modify safety selector lever's grooves. Also "auto sear" (i hope this is the correct name) were modified. Italian laws say that changes must be irreversible.
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 9:04:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/7/2014 9:08:07 AM EST by jhud]
That is a nice rifle DAAF..




Was the port door rusty when you got it? Most the Malaysian parts kits do too. Makes me want to bring them a bottle of CLP next time I go on vacation there.


http://www.nuovajager.it/scheda5.asp?id=2011120113355#
there is no way to import that aramlite rifle is there?
Link Posted: 4/7/2014 9:04:39 AM EST
Fantastic :), but they were marked 613 or m16a1?

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sinister:
Matteo,

I trained with Malaysian Special Forces in the late 80s.  Paratroop and Ranger Soldiers carried M16A1 rifles while officers and NCOs carried M16A1 carbines.

Nations using M16A1s were either given or loaned them as foreign military assistance or they bought them outright under export Foreign Military Sales (FMS).

Ammunition was M193 made in Malaysia.
View Quote

Link Posted: 4/7/2014 9:14:09 AM EST
Thanks, yes, i noticed it  ("CH forge code and C MP Chrome Bore barrel" -> '74) too... are there others details for to identify the exactly date of the upper?
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Very nice rifle and a great piece of history.
The upper, however, doesn't appear to be original to the lower.  The lower is circa '71, but the CH forge code and C MP Chrome Bore barrel would be '74 or later.

The Italian importer, Nuova Jager, has some very interesting things for sale, including a military M16A1 with accessories, an Israeli carbine and this very, very, very low-SN Colt-Armalite Model 01.
(Remember, the SNs started at 000101.)

http://www.nuovajager.it/immagini/ar15eo/armalitered%20(3).jpg
View Quote

Link Posted: 4/7/2014 9:42:55 AM EST
Thank you jhud, it is seems rusty on my bad photo but from live it is a lot used and color is black/brown ;)

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jhud:
That is a nice rifle DAAF..




Was the port door rusty when you got it? Most the Malaysian parts kits do too. Makes me want to bring them a bottle of CLP next time I go on vacation there.


http://www.nuovajager.it/scheda5.asp?id=2011120113355#
there is no way to import that aramlite rifle is there?
View Quote

Link Posted: 4/7/2014 11:42:57 AM EST
5 grand and change for the old 601 ain't bad 'tal. Looks mostly complete even.
Link Posted: 4/9/2014 9:05:57 AM EST
Thank you guys for all informations received until now!!!
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