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Posted: 5/18/2011 3:09:00 PM EDT
[#1]
This is a tag
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Posted: 5/18/2011 3:10:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
This is a tag Dog, I'm sorry. Whats a TAG? Phil |
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Posted: 5/18/2011 3:19:14 PM EDT
[#3]
It is a way to post nothing just to keep something up on the front page for all to see, or for you to remember the post and find it easy.
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Posted: 5/18/2011 4:18:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Another shinning example as to how Bill Alexander continues to fail business 101, and..... public relations 101. I wish the inventor was as impressive as the invention... 
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Posted: 5/18/2011 4:58:56 PM EDT
[#5]
So one less option?
Distribution sucks with AA, and now this? What is he thinking? I'd love to know the differences in the contracts but hate to ask as I have no dog in it |
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Posted: 5/18/2011 5:11:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Satern received the 60 day notification on April 1st, 2011 from Alexander Arms, that our licensing agreement which we signed January 5, 2010 (which was for 10 years) will be terminated as of May 30th, 2011. This was through no fault of our own. Terms of the new agreement offered were different and as of today we have decided not to sign that agreement. So after an almost 5 year run we will no longer be manufacturing Grendel(R) and/or Beowulf(R) cut rifled barrels. According to our existing agreement, Satern Custom Machining, Inc. has until May 30th, 2011 to accept orders for existing cut rifled Grendel(R) barrels. We have every intention of finishing our existing orders and all orders placed (within reason and at our discretion) on or before May 30th, 2011. Feel free to call or email with your barrel requests. If it fits within the parameters of our remaining ability to manufacture and deliver your order we will certainly accommodate that. We would like to express our appreciation to our Grendel(R) and Beowulf(R) customers. It has been a pleasure to serve you for five years. Our policy has always been diversification. We will continue to manufacture superb cut rifled barrels in a variety of calibers and configurations. We look forward to continuing to meet your cut rifled barrel needs. Respectfully, Deb and Steve Satern FYI: Liberty Barrels, Inc. also has declined to sign the new licensing agreement presented by Alexander Arms. Eric, Liberty's President, has assured me that I will have some great deals on Beowulf(R) and Grendel(R) button rifled barrels to offer you! Phil, were you emailed the above text? Or from what source did you find it? |
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Posted: 5/18/2011 5:25:13 PM EDT
[#7]
it's on the front page of their website.
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Posted: 5/18/2011 5:32:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Yeh, right on the Satern website, front and center.
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Posted: 5/18/2011 6:52:30 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Satern received the 60 day notification on April 1st, 2011 from Alexander Arms, that our licensing agreement which we signed January 5, 2010 (which was for 10 years) will be terminated as of May 30th, 2011. This was through no fault of our own. Terms of the new agreement offered were different and as of today we have decided not to sign that agreement. So after an almost 5 year run we will no longer be manufacturing Grendel(R) and/or Beowulf(R) cut rifled barrels. According to our existing agreement, Satern Custom Machining, Inc. has until May 30th, 2011 to accept orders for existing cut rifled Grendel(R) barrels. We have every intention of finishing our existing orders and all orders placed (within reason and at our discretion) on or before May 30th, 2011. Feel free to call or email with your barrel requests. If it fits within the parameters of our remaining ability to manufacture and deliver your order we will certainly accommodate that. We would like to express our appreciation to our Grendel(R) and Beowulf(R) customers. It has been a pleasure to serve you for five years. Our policy has always been diversification. We will continue to manufacture superb cut rifled barrels in a variety of calibers and configurations. We look forward to continuing to meet your cut rifled barrel needs. Respectfully, Deb and Steve Satern FYI: Liberty Barrels, Inc. also has declined to sign the new licensing agreement presented by Alexander Arms. Eric, Liberty's President, has assured me that I will have some great deals on Beowulf(R) and Grendel(R) button rifled barrels to offer you! Phil, were you emailed the above text? Or from what source did you find it? Steve Satern has emphatically stated that Satern, inc. will not make 6.5G or .50B barrels post 5/31. Vendors and individuals will have to solicit Lothar Walther, Bartlein, Lilja, Krieger, Badger, and Shilen for 6.5G & .50B barrels Phil |
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Posted: 5/18/2011 7:01:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Another shinning example as to how Bill Alexander continues to fail business 101, and..... public relations 101. I wish the inventor was as impressive as the invention...
You may want to credit Arne Brennan with the invention. Bill A was late to the party. He did TM the 6.5G and collect fees. Arne's compamy CSS made 6.5G. He sold the company to LW, which continues to make barrels. Phil |
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Posted: 5/18/2011 7:15:14 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 5/18/2011 7:24:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Absolute morons (I'm talking about the Grendel folks).
Looks like the 6.8 SPC II will be getting even more business than before. Sucks that the company running the Grendel performs so poorly while the caliber itself performs so well. |
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Posted: 5/18/2011 7:56:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Another shinning example as to how Bill Alexander continues to fail business 101, and..... public relations 101. I wish the inventor was as impressive as the invention...
You may want to credit Arne Brennen with the invention. Bill A was late to the party. He did TM the 6.5G and collect fees. Arne's compamy CSS made 6.5G. He sold the company to LW, which continues to make barrels. Phil 
Please accept my apology for not delving into to intricacies in regards to the development of the 6.5x38mm Grendel round... So... if you prefer, collaborative inventor then, or marketer, or.. whatever makes you feel all correct, and/or nice and tingly... The industry is well aware that Arne Brennan is not the problem.
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Posted: 5/18/2011 8:58:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Thanks the stars that there are really good "clones" of the 6.5 Grendel out there. The .50. not so much, but I am glad I got a clone.
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Posted: 5/18/2011 9:17:22 PM EDT
[#15]
It's just absolutely incredible that some people, ie...Bill Alexander, can be so fortunate as to literally stumble into such a fantastic round, and start a company that literally explodes overnight, have thousands of people clammoring for product and still be able to totally and completely F it up by being an ego maniacal business retard. Phil is 100% correct in the fact that Arne Brennan Created the round. Arne was shooting it out of his rifles for TWO YEARS before Bill A. ever even heard of it. Next thing you know, Bill A. is on "FutureWeapons" as the Creator/Lead Designer taking all the credit. Jumping up and down at ShotShow screaming about what a genius firearms designer he is. Sam Colt aint got Sheeiit on him, except a little thing called business sense and personability, move over Mr. Kalashnikov there's a new sherriff in town........but not for long.
Poor Arne, picked the WORST person in the world to give his idea to. Should have went to Les Baer. Oh yeah, Les is making money regardless, he just changed the dimensions a tiny amount and re-named it and laughed all the way to the bank. Seems like somebody would have learned a bit of a lesson with that whole fiasco. Seems like a person would not make the same mistake, OVER AND OVER AND OVER until you have no business to run into the ground anymore. Lothar Walther just changed it also and called it the 6.5 CSS, I'll bet Hornady is pulling their hair out. If they stop producing ammo and brass it will be bad for the whole Grendel crowd, of which I am one. I just got through building a Grendel and was about to pull the trigger on another with components FROM AA but not now. I'll spend my $1000.00 with a company that will be around this time next year, and a caliber that won't be so hard to find components for, like the .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor, or the .260, plenty of options, or hey the .264 LBC. ?????? WOW, I'm upset huh!  It makes my eyes cross it's so silly!
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Posted: 5/18/2011 10:24:00 PM EDT
[#16]
LHClarke
excellent summation Sir. I own 2 Grendel's [Sabre Defence] and a 3rd custom variant is in the pipeline via a Rainier Arms built Mega/Satern combo. I will not ever in my life knowingly purchase anything from Alexander Arms. I love the Grendel, and it's capabilities. But this is in spite of Alexander Arms. |
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Posted: 5/18/2011 10:27:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Another shinning example as to how Bill Alexander continues to fail business 101, and..... public relations 101. I wish the inventor was as impressive as the invention... Bill Alexander has been and continues to be the worst enemy of the 6.5 Grendel in existence. |
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Posted: 5/19/2011 5:49:05 AM EDT
[#18]
Sounds like Satern should bust out some 6.8SPC barrels!
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Posted: 5/19/2011 5:58:15 AM EDT
[#19]
Don't forget about Black Hole Weaponry as they do very nice 264lbc-ar barrels. I just scored three 18" versions for builds. Haven't shot them yet, but the quality of them is superb so far. They also do other calibers of course.
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Posted: 5/19/2011 7:39:34 AM EDT
[#20]
The good news is there are plenty of Grendel variants out there, .264 LBC,6.5 CSS, 6.5 Sporter...
Then of course my favorite, the 6.5mm Patriot Combat Cartridge (6.5 PCC)... 
Should be good news for 6.8 SPC sales... Much like JD Jones of SSK w/ his 6.5 MPC, Bill Alexander has let his ego and lack of people and/or business skills tank a fine cartridge like the 6.5 Grendel...But thats OK, just gives others who have people and business savy an chance to fix that problem... Now, if only someone could address the magazine issues and the cost of brass and maybe redesign of the bolt/barrel extention...everything would be perfect. Bill Alexander, you deserve what you get, sorry. |
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Posted: 5/19/2011 8:04:52 AM EDT
[#21]
Good gravy.
I haven't even had a chance to shoot my Satern Grendel barrel yet. I've been pining over it for a year, finally got the money to gether last Fall to buy the barrel, I pieced it together over the Winter bit by bit and now that I'm finally ready to go (almost, still can't afford dedicated optics), AA is screwing the pooch. On the one hand, I'm fortunate that I got my Satern barrel already, but on the other - what good does it do me if support for the cartridge just evaporates? All it takes is one or two ammunition manufacturers to pull support and it'll be finished. Heck, if just Wolf/Prvi pulled their line, we'd all be stuck paying over $1/round whether you reload or not. The Grendel is not anywhere close to being well-developed in the marketplace and it needs all the support it can get. I can only hope AA reconsiders their business partnerships. Quoted:
Now, if only someone could address the magazine issues and the cost of brass and maybe redesign of the bolt/barrel extention...everything would be perfect. C-Products used to be fine. Good price, welds are a little rough, but they work flawlessly. Of course, now they're out of the game, but that didn't have anything to do with AA. Brass cost is still absurd. Wolf/Prvi is an acceptable solution for most people, but the brass is slightly different and it's quite expensive compared to their other offerings. Still, it was cheap enough to get me in the game. As for the bolts, I think that was largely anecdotal/myth. The pressure of the Grendel is no higher than any other AR chambering, so I don't see how component strength will become a problem. I guess you could handload and get the ammo really hot, but then you'll just be burning out your barrel faster so why do it? |
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Posted: 5/19/2011 8:09:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Glad I picked up a Satern bbl when I did. Absolutely shoots the lights out. Everything I've seen points to Satern making a much superior barrel to whoever makes the AA brand.
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Posted: 5/19/2011 9:45:19 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Another shinning example as to how Bill Alexander continues to fail business 101, and..... public relations 101. I wish the inventor was as impressive as the invention... Bill Alexander is just a figurehead at this point. He doesn't run the company anymore from what I've heard. |
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Posted: 5/19/2011 10:56:13 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Another shinning example as to how Bill Alexander continues to fail business 101, and..... public relations 101. I wish the inventor was as impressive as the invention...
Bill Alexander is just a figurehead at this point. He doesn't run the company anymore from what I've heard. You are correct, it is a major misconception, but when your name is the company name you end up the piniata. |
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Posted: 5/19/2011 11:41:52 AM EDT
[#25]
This is turning into more gossip and name calling than a technical discussion. Too bad Satern couldn't come to an agreement with Alexander Arms they would both be happy with, the limited contact I had with the Saterns they seem nice. Apparently other people were able to reach an agreement.
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Posted: 5/19/2011 11:45:32 AM EDT
[#26]
Oh yes, I have met the Saterns and they are very nice folks.
and that's a fact Jack!! (technically speaking) |
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Posted: 5/19/2011 7:04:07 PM EDT
[#27]
i got a liberty barrel in 6.5g it shoot great. im glad i got my aa barrel when i did.
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Posted: 5/19/2011 8:17:08 PM EDT
[#28]
For those of you wondering about the history of the 6.5 Grendel, and who developed it, educate yourselves with Fortier's article here. Those basing their opinions on emotion and hearsay should bring their documentation and take it up with Fortier. And I, too, was there starting in October 2003 when I both read an article by Fortier on the .26 Grendel in the Shotgun News and Googled 6.5 PPC and Arne Brennan's name came up.
Regarding Satern's announcement and the hornet's nest of AA haters it seems to have stirred, I've been to Satern's shop and have drunk Guinness with Steve and Deb at SHOT and NRA. Great folk. And the 18" Satern 6.5 Grendel barrel I have is my most accurate and my favorite. But I'm pretty sure there's two sides to every story. And I would have advised both sides not to have aired dirty laundry in the court of internet opinion, though it seems a bit late for that. John P.S. Amazing that site staff allows the AA bashing and rumor-mongering to go on to the extent they do, but it seems to be par for the course. . . . Read back through this thread and substitue the name "Mark LaRue" every time "Bill Alexander" is mentioned and ask yourself if staff might react differently. ================ www.65grendel.com |
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Posted: 5/19/2011 9:17:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
For those of you wondering about the history of the 6.5 Grendel, and who developed it, educate yourselves with Fortier's article here. Those basing their opinions on emotion and hearsay should bring their documentation and take it up with Fortier. And I, too, was there starting in October 2003 when I both read an article by Fortier on the .26 Grendel in the Shotgun News and Googled 6.5 PPC and Arne Brennan's name came up. Regarding Satern's announcement and the hornet's nest of AA haters it seems to have stirred, I've been to Satern's shop and have drunk Guinness with Steve and Deb at SHOT and NRA. Great folk. And the 18" Satern 6.5 Grendel barrel I have is my most accurate and my favorite. But I'm pretty sure there's two sides to every story. And I would have advised both sides not to have aired dirty laundry in the court of internet opinion, though it seems a bit late for that. John P.S. Amazing that site staff allows the AA bashing and rumor-mongering to go on to the extent they do, but it seems to be par for the course. . . . Read back through this thread and substitue the name "Mark LaRue" every time "Bill Alexander" is mentioned and ask yourself if staff might react differently. ================ www.65grendel.com I always thought the awesomeness of the Grendel cured internet butthurt. Myth busted, I guess. Thanks to the Arfcom tech forums |
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Posted: 5/20/2011 2:41:08 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: For those of you wondering about the history of the 6.5 Grendel, and who developed it, educate yourselves with Fortier's article here. Those basing their opinions on emotion and hearsay should bring their documentation and take it up with Fortier. And I, too, was there starting in October 2003 when I both read an article by Fortier on the .26 Grendel in the Shotgun News and Googled 6.5 PPC and Arne Brennan's name came up. Regarding Satern's announcement and the hornet's nest of AA haters it seems to have stirred, I've been to Satern's shop and have drunk Guinness with Steve and Deb at SHOT and NRA. Great folk. And the 18" Satern 6.5 Grendel barrel I have is my most accurate and my favorite. But I'm pretty sure there's two sides to every story. And I would have advised both sides not to have aired dirty laundry in the court of internet opinion, though it seems a bit late for that. John P.S. Amazing that site staff allows the AA bashing and rumor-mongering to go on to the extent they do, but it seems to be par for the course. . . . Read back through this thread and substitue the name "Mark LaRue" every time "Bill Alexander" is mentioned and ask yourself if staff might react differently. ================ www.65grendel.com Perhaps instead of being so busy finger wagging you could have read this: "This is turning into more gossip and name calling than a technical discussion. Too bad Satern couldn't come to an agreement with Alexander Arms they would both be happy with, the limited contact I had with the Saterns they seem nice. Apparently other people were able to reach an agreement. " On page one and headed my request to stop trying to turn this thread into some kind of melodramatic spat. But instead you wade in to first throw gas on the fire and then make snide comments about this site when you were the one trying to stir shit up, as you have been warned not to do in the past. Don't let the door hit you in the ass. |
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Posted: 5/20/2011 5:51:10 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Don't let the door hit you in the ass. To bad it wasn't SYSTEM MESSAGE
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Posted: 5/20/2011 10:54:36 AM EDT
[#32]
sounds like a big mistake
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Posted: 5/20/2011 12:57:45 PM EDT
[#33]
This is basically a coffin nail for my Grendel build. I was going to use a Satern barrel. I know there are other barrel mfg's, but I had my heart set on Satern. Oh well, maybe it's time to look @ 6.8.
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Posted: 5/20/2011 7:18:13 PM EDT
[#34]
too bad about the Satern barrels......I have been very happy with the 20 inch DMR tube I have.
The question I have is why it happened? regarding the 1st page comments on Arne designing the Grendel......it's simply untrue.... Arne's 6.5mm PPC case, as I tested, is shown in the middle, on the left is a 6.5mm Grendel. It is easy to see the Alexander/Pohjoispaa case is noticeably different than Arne's design. Janne Pohjoispaa of Lapua is the one who deserves some credit......not Arne, but no one ever even mentions him despite the fact he and Alexander designed the case. On the right is simply a 6.5x39mm. 
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Posted: 5/21/2011 4:24:31 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
For those of you wondering about the history of the 6.5 Grendel, and who developed it, educate yourselves with Fortier's article here. Those basing their opinions on emotion and hearsay should bring their documentation and take it up with Fortier. And I, too, was there starting in October 2003 when I both read an article by Fortier on the .26 Grendel in the Shotgun News and Googled 6.5 PPC and Arne Brennan's name came up. Regarding Satern's announcement and the hornet's nest of AA haters it seems to have stirred, I've been to Satern's shop and have drunk Guinness with Steve and Deb at SHOT and NRA. Great folk. And the 18" Satern 6.5 Grendel barrel I have is my most accurate and my favorite. But I'm pretty sure there's two sides to every story. And I would have advised both sides not to have aired dirty laundry in the court of internet opinion, though it seems a bit late for that. John P.S. Amazing that site staff allows the AA bashing and rumor-mongering to go on to the extent they do, but it seems to be par for the course. . . . Read back through this thread and substitue the name "Mark LaRue" every time "Bill Alexander" is mentioned and ask yourself if staff might react differently. ================ www.65grendel.com John I agree their are probably 6.8 fans that are happy that AA is losing a very high quality barrel maker and are probably going to "muck rake" so to speak and it seems there are 6.5 fans that are unhappy too. I do not own a 6.5 yet. I have been in contact with AA just this week to purchase a 14.5" Upper. I still haven't made my mind up to go 14.5" or 18" Barrel kit. Im not happy that AA is losing a high end barrel maker because they don't have many. Could Saturn still make the barrels and call them 6.5 Sporters or something like that. |
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Posted: 5/21/2011 7:49:08 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
For those of you wondering about the history of the 6.5 Grendel, and who developed it, educate yourselves with Fortier's article here. Those basing their opinions on emotion and hearsay should bring their documentation and take it up with Fortier. And I, too, was there starting in October 2003 when I both read an article by Fortier on the .26 Grendel in the Shotgun News and Googled 6.5 PPC and Arne Brennan's name came up. Regarding Satern's announcement and the hornet's nest of AA haters it seems to have stirred, I've been to Satern's shop and have drunk Guinness with Steve and Deb at SHOT and NRA. Great folk. And the 18" Satern 6.5 Grendel barrel I have is my most accurate and my favorite. But I'm pretty sure there's two sides to every story. And I would have advised both sides not to have aired dirty laundry in the court of internet opinion, though it seems a bit late for that. John P.S. Amazing that site staff allows the AA bashing and rumor-mongering to go on to the extent they do, but it seems to be par for the course. . . . Read back through this thread and substitue the name "Mark LaRue" every time "Bill Alexander" is mentioned and ask yourself if staff might react differently. ================ www.65grendel.com John I agree their are probably 6.8 fans that are happy that AA is losing a very high quality barrel maker and are probably going to "muck rake" so to speak and it seems there are 6.5 fans that are unhappy too. I do not own a 6.5 yet. I have been in contact with AA just this week to purchase a 14.5" Upper. I still haven't made my mind up to go 14.5" or 18" Barrel kit. Im not happy that AA is losing a high end barrel maker because they don't have many. Could Saturn still make the barrels and call them 6.5 Sporters or something like that. If you can't make up your mind between a 14.5 and 18 then I recommend just getting a 16. It's a pretty versatile barrel length in this caliber. |
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Posted: 5/21/2011 8:17:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
too bad about the Satern barrels......I have been very happy with the 20 inch DMR tube I have. The question I have is why it happened? regarding the 1st page comments on Arne designing the Grendel......it's simply untrue.... Arne's 6.5mm PPC case, as I tested, is shown in the middle, on the left is a 6.5mm Grendel. It is easy to see the Alexander/Pohjoispaa case is noticeably different than Arne's design. Janne Pohjoispaa of Lapua is the one who deserves some credit......not Arne, but no one ever even mentions him despite the fact he and Alexander designed the case. On the right is simply a 6.5x39mm. http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/LtoR65Grendel65PPCexperimental65x39reduced-1.jpg Interesting to see them all side-by-side. It shows the Grendel has about 5-6% more case/powder capacity due to its shorter neck length, over the PPC round. |
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Posted: 5/21/2011 12:02:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
too bad about the Satern barrels......I have been very happy with the 20 inch DMR tube I have. The question I have is why it happened? regarding the 1st page comments on Arne designing the Grendel......it's simply untrue.... Arne's 6.5mm PPC case, as I tested, is shown in the middle, on the left is a 6.5mm Grendel. It is easy to see the Alexander/Pohjoispaa case is noticeably different than Arne's design. Janne Pohjoispaa of Lapua is the one who deserves some credit......not Arne, but no one ever even mentions him despite the fact he and Alexander designed the case. On the right is simply a 6.5x39mm. http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/LtoR65Grendel65PPCexperimental65x39reduced-1.jpg LW was making barrels for Arne Brennan and his company CSS. Woody Woodall introduced Arne to Bill Alexander in 2001. This is from Arne and Woody lips to my ears. Gunwriter, you should call them both and get the story. Phil |
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Posted: 5/21/2011 12:32:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
too bad about the Satern barrels......I have been very happy with the 20 inch DMR tube I have. The question I have is why it happened? regarding the 1st page comments on Arne designing the Grendel......it's simply untrue.... Arne's 6.5mm PPC case, as I tested, is shown in the middle, on the left is a 6.5mm Grendel. It is easy to see the Alexander/Pohjoispaa case is noticeably different than Arne's design. Janne Pohjoispaa of Lapua is the one who deserves some credit......not Arne, but no one ever even mentions him despite the fact he and Alexander designed the case. On the right is simply a 6.5x39mm. http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/Gunwritr/LtoR65Grendel65PPCexperimental65x39reduced-1.jpg LW was making barrels for Arne Brennan and his company CSS, prior to 2001. Woody Woodall introduced Arne to Bill Alexander in 2001. He did so because BA solicited LW concerning the design for a 6.5 chamber. This is from Arne and Woody lips to my ears. Gunwriter, you should call them both and get the story. Phil Phil, I was kicking around in 2001 working on my own 6.5x39mm design. I have met Arne a few times and spoken with him. I have met Woody as well. I am aware of the entire development process and shot the original prototype gun in competition with the original prototype ammunition. What you are not aware of is that the cartridge continued to evolve and change from what was originally just a normal 6.5mm PPC (something which many people had done before) into what is now the 6.5mm Grendel after Lapua become involved. Janne at Lapua worked directly with Bill in changing the design from a basic PPC for a couple reasons. Remember Lapua was not making PPC cases they were making .220 Russian cases. Some of the changes were to simplify production and cut losses during the manufacturing processes and some were to optimize the cartridge for use in an autoloading rifle. I've sat at Janne's house in Finland and spoken to him about it. He is a very accomplished engineer at one of the most respected ammunition manufacturers in the world. You also might not be aware that Bill paid for the tooling to allow Grendel case production and purchased enough to make it happen. I have always given Arne the credit he deserves for his work with the original prototype 6.5mm PPC ammunition in both ARs and bolt action competition rifles. But I also recognize that he was hardly the first person to neck a PPC to 6.5mm or to put such an animal in an AR-15. You also might not know how many cartridges Bill Alexander has designed over the years working as a contract engineer. The .224 BOZ is just one example. You are also probably unaware of his background or work for the British MoD. It would be nice if people recognized the contribution Janne P made to the Grendel when the case design is quite obviously quite different from Arne's 6.5mm PPC....... |
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Posted: 5/21/2011 3:57:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Gunwriter,
I'm not disputing Lapua's contribution. They got the case dimensions right, if a little short. My understanding is that 6.5G would not shoot very accurately at its debut. Would you care to comment? Phil |
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Posted: 5/21/2011 4:39:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Gunwriter, I'm not disputing Lapua's contribution. They got the case dimensions right, if a little short. My understanding is that 6.5G would not shoot very accurately at its debut. Would you care to comment? Phil Yes, AA did indeed have difficulty in the very early stages of development. As an example, in the original prototype I shot, which was a 6.5mm PPC, it shot 120 grain Noslers shockingly well, and everything else was ho hum. AA changed the twist and developed their compound angle throat. This proved to be the answer. It is somewhat similar in concept to the 6.5x55mm. As you know, the accuracy problem was solved many years ago and even AA's most inexpensive chrome lined barrels have impressed me with their accuracy. But....all of this is covered in my article linked above. If you are not disputing Lapua's contribution, and you can see by the photo I posted above that the 6.5mm PPC and 6.5mm Grendel are different dimensionally then why are you posting on this board that Arne designed the Grendel? |
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Posted: 5/21/2011 6:33:50 PM EDT
[#42]
Fortier,
So by your own admission, the world has been making 6.5 PPC variants for the AR15 platform?@! Even you, yourself stated you were making 6.5x39? So, essentially you are minimizing the whole argument that Bill Alexander was the master engineer (small e) behind the 6.5? I guess what you are trying to say is that Alexander just decided to trademark a name on something that people have been engineering for years? Hmmmmm? |
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Posted: 5/21/2011 7:53:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Fortier, So by your own admission, the world has been making 6.5 PPC variants for the AR15 platform?@! Even you, yourself stated you were making 6.5x39? So, essentially you are minimizing the whole argument that Bill Alexander was the master engineer (small e) behind the 6.5? I guess what you are trying to say is that Alexander just decided to trademark a name on something that people have been engineering for years? Hmmmmm? Umm, it's not like it was any secret. The 6mm PPC came out in 1975. Lots of people wildcatted it. JD Jones had the 6.5mm PPC running in an AR decades ago. But as stated, Lapua's Janne P and Alexander designed the Grendel case directly off of Lapua's existing .220 Russian case. It is not just a 6.5mm PPC. Alexander did A LOT of load development work and testing and was the first person ever to bring out a commercially viable and successful cartridge along this line. Previous to Alexander's work any such rifles were custom built using hand built and modified mags of varying reliability and no commercial ammo was available. You have to understand there is a huge difference between a one off custom built rifle and a production gun with production mags and production ammo. Mags in particular were a huge issue for people building custom guns. You can think what you want of Alexander, but anyone who has spent any time with him will readily admit he is an extremely knowledgeable and talented engineer. ETA Sure, I worked on a 6.5x39mm, just like others have before me. I mean, the base cartridge was introduced in 1943. A LOT of people have played with it. But no one has ever brought out a commercially viable or successful version......or built rifles chambered in it commercially.....or offered mags for it commercially. Get it? |
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Posted: 5/22/2011 4:06:50 AM EDT
[#44]
Gunwriter,
Here is a link to Arne's own words. http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?5315-The-original-6.5-Grendel-Article-December-2003 Phil |
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Posted: 5/22/2011 6:00:48 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Gunwriter, Here is a like to Arne's own words. http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?5315-The-original-6.5-Grendel-Article-December-2003 Phil Phil, Thanks for the link. You can stir this pot all you want. I am aware of the falling out between Arne and Bill, that is ancient news. I have written about the work Arne did with his development on his 6.5mm PPC cartridge. I have even been to the AMU at Fort Benning and spoken with LTC Liwanag (Ret.) about those two rifles he spoke about. The AMU tested them, came to the conclusion they didn't shoot well enough to warrant interest and the ammo is still probably sitting on the same pallet now as it was years ago when I was there. I never switched to a 6.5mm in High Power and continued to shoot a Les Baer 5.56 gun in competition. I always liked Arne although I thought he was a bit careless in how hard he tried to push his handloads in an AR. But the simple fact is that according to Lapua (the original manufacturer) the case was designed by them and Bill. Perhaps you should take it up with them. |
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Posted: 5/22/2011 8:49:34 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Gunwriter, Here is a like to Arne's own words. http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?5315-The-original-6.5-Grendel-Article-December-2003 Phil Phil, Thanks for the link. You can stir this pot all you want. I am aware of the falling out between Arne and Bill, that is ancient news. I have written about the work Arne did with his development on his 6.5mm PPC cartridge. I have even been to the AMU at Fort Benning and spoken with LTC Liwanag (Ret.) about those two rifles he spoke about. The AMU tested them, came to the conclusion they didn't shoot well enough to warrant interest and the ammo is still probably sitting on the same pallet now as it was years ago when I was there. I never switched to a 6.5mm in High Power and continued to shoot a Les Baer 5.56 gun in competition. I always liked Arne although I thought he was a bit careless in how hard he tried to push his handloads in an AR. But the simple fact is that according to Lapua (the original manufacturer) the case was designed by them and Bill. Perhaps you should take it up with them. Gunwriter, I am not trying to "stir the pot." I have spoken at length with Arne and Woody. The link that I provided is most accurate account that I have read. Speak to the parties. Don't rely on my posts. Get the info from the source. Phil |
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Posted: 5/24/2011 7:37:43 AM EDT
[#47]
So why doesn't Satern make .264 LBC barrels instead? Seems like a no brainer.
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Posted: 5/24/2011 9:17:05 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
This is basically a coffin nail for my Grendel build. I was going to use a Satern barrel. I know there are other barrel mfg's, but I had my heart set on Satern. Oh well, maybe it's time to look @ 6.8. *cough* 6x45 - 1:9 twist froom WOA. 2600+ FPS with a 100g bullet |
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Posted: 5/24/2011 2:31:33 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is basically a coffin nail for my Grendel build. I was going to use a Satern barrel. I know there are other barrel mfg's, but I had my heart set on Satern. Oh well, maybe it's time to look @ 6.8. *cough* 6x45 - 1:9 twist froom WOA. 2600+ FPS with a 100g bullet GGG, Doesn't John Hollinger have a 6WOA? Is that the same round as 6x45. I spoke to him about is 2 years ago. I think that he was getting close to 2900fps. Phil |
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Posted: 5/24/2011 3:11:29 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is basically a coffin nail for my Grendel build. I was going to use a Satern barrel. I know there are other barrel mfg's, but I had my heart set on Satern. Oh well, maybe it's time to look @ 6.8. *cough* 6x45 - 1:9 twist froom WOA. 2600+ FPS with a 100g bullet GGG, Doesn't John Hollinger have a 6WOA? Is that the same round as 6x45. I spoke to him about is 2 years ago. I think that he was getting close to 2900fps. Phil J. Hollinger has the 6mm WOA (White Oak Armament) and is based on the 6.8mm SPC parent case, the 6X45mm is of course based on the .223 Rem. parent case. |
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