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Posted: 1/4/2018 12:46:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2018 8:41:52 PM EDT by elucidate]


I am embarking on a project that has been challenging me recently and I thought I'd share as without some of the usual suspects seen here on AR15.com and some subject matter experts, I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am today!
(Braceman, John Thomas, Chris Bartocci, Colt Canada, British Army contacts, Augee and others)

I started cloning, and the ridiculous levels of OCD seeking out the perfect parts that comes with that, with the Mk18 CQBR. It's a pretty cool hobby for people with a lot of time in the middle of the night and access to the internet, as it allows us to go full on detail orientated and start to be gun detectives for when things were issued, used and disposed.

I decided to take cloning several steps further recently and one of my projects is the British incarnation of the Mk18, the L119A1.

The L119A1 10"/CQB variant was supplied as an upper upgrade program by Diemaco to the existing 15.7" variants to the UK MoD in 2005, about 5 years after the US developed the Crane Mk18.

The UK is very secretive about the tools used by its armed forces, when compared to the US for example, and as such, photos and information on the L119A1 have been hard to find.

The pictures that spurred me on to start this project are of allegedly, captured SAS rifles in Iraq. The metadata on the picture shows 2008, and everything matches in terms of date, so I was very lucky the original metadata matched. There is no doubt they are UKSF rifles, but I do not know how accurate the 'captured' part is. They are however, the clearest and most detailed pictures available that are open source.

As you will see below, the rifles are similar to the US Mk18 Mod 0, with FSB, KAC rails etc.

Some major differences exist because Colt Canada built these, which I will expand upon as the project develops.





I have learnt more about these rifles than any sane person might want to know over the past 6 months, so hopefully I can share with you guys and make this an interesting look into the M4 platform outside of the US Military and also some differences between Colt Canada/Diemaco and Colt Mfg.

Stage one of course, was to ensure I got a lower that would be suitable. If you're going to make a clone, I think it should be as correct as possible. Luckily, I am an FFL so was able to procure a Cerro 80% and send it to John Brace (Braceman) for the correct engraving, the FFL part allowing me to start work instantly on what will be defined as an SBR.

Braceman did an amazing job, it was a new design to him so we worked through some super detailed things and worked out where stuff aligned, and he engraved it using his special methods.
The real star of my current clone builds has been John Brace, so if any of you guys are wanting to build something, now would be the time, his work is impeccable and his OCD about correctness matches my own so we worked great together making this!

I then machined out the 80 into a real rifle and laser engraved my makers info in a legal but not easy to see place (right hand side magwell flare) so as not to spoil the look of the rifle.



What you will see on the lower is the then Diemaco logo, known as the Devtek D.
Diemaco was formed in 1984 I believe, then Heroux Devtek bought Diemaco in 2000, operating as a parent company and keeping Diemaco a division. Colt Defense (US) then bought Diemaco in 2005. This is an interesting time in watching for markings, engravings etc as you start to see things slowly change in design as the years progress, and then major changes as Colt Canada Corp exercised its influence.

Underneath the logo is the Land Service number which also serves as the model (L119A1). The UK Ministry of Defence issues L numbers to many products, for example, every weapon in use has one. L85 for the current main battle rifle, L115 for the sniper rifle etc. etc.

Caliber is then designated, interestingly, in lower case, whereas Colt USA uses upper case.

The serial number is interesting, it has a specific format. The first two numbers are the year of production, the middle 5 numbers are sequential starting at 00001, and are delivered by an auto advancing wheel, and the last two are the country designator. As an example, Denmark and Norway have their own identifiers, GB stands for Great Britain. As such, we can tell this gun was originally made in the year 2000 (00), it was the 301st UK contract gun off the production line for that model (00301) and it was made specifically for the UK contract (GB). This also fits with the initial 10" barrel variants being upper upgrade program, as the lower was clearly initially mated to a 15.7" upper.

The NSN is engraved just underneath the trigger pin. The early guns all had this engraved by Diemaco in Canada, and the lower was anodized and shipped with the NSN and other markings done in house. On later guns, this NSN was omitted and the UK added the NSN via rotary engraving to the right hand side magwell. They also left it raw instead of refinishing it. According to the armourers I have spoken to, this was done to make cataloguing more efficient. At the time (2005) the UK did not use UID stickers, instead they had the NSN easily visible and written numbers in paint pen on visible areas. (They do use UID stickers now).

The selector markings also vary from the US models, S, R and Auto.
Safe, Repetition and Automatic. Canada has some weird laws about using French, or words that work in both English and French, hence the R for repetition.
One of the fine details I noticed was that the R is not perfectly centered with the selector, Diemaco aligned the right leg of the R with the tip of the selector.

Anodizing is next, and the story of how I had to reverse engineer Colt Canada anodizing and start to do it myself. Colt Canada's anodizing is not quite as haphazard as Colt USA but it isn't any of the US colors either! I anticipate my backlog of other work to be quiet enough to ano the lower next week.

Hopefully the tech forum will find this interesting as I go through and build something not normally seen. I'll try and keep this updated around once a week if people actually want to see my crazy OCD matching a small countries weird and wonderful Mk18 copy rifle :-D
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 12:57:39 AM EDT
Count me in! (But you already knew that)

I see you've come a ways since that Colt FBI HRT barrel......
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 1:17:48 AM EDT
Very informative. You can see more pics of L119A1 ITW here: http://firearmsworld.net/usa/m16/diemaco/sfw.htm
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 1:48:18 AM EDT
Great work so far!

The two photographs of the carbines on the floor are not of captured rifles... that must have been tacked on over the years, hahaha.

The original photographs were posted here by an ARFCOM member, the 2008 date sounds about right.

IIRC he was an Air Force guy who got a chance to take photographs of coalition partner weapons--you can see his ABUs and pea-soup green boots peeking out in the photographs, hahaha.

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 2:05:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2018 2:12:34 AM EDT by MILSPEC556]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Augee:
Great work so far!

The two photographs of the carbines on the floor are not of captured rifles... that must have been tacked on over the years, hahaha.

The original photographs were posted here by an ARFCOM member, the 2008 date sounds about right.

IIRC he was an Air Force guy who got a chance to take photographs of coalition partner weapons--you can see his ABUs and pea-soup green boots peeking out in the photographs, hahaha.

~Augee
View Quote
I was also a bit perplexed on that....L119's captured by......the USAF?

Ohhhhhhh Caaaanadaaaaa (and England)-





(And just for shits and grins, a C7 lower in the raw before anodization-)

Link Posted: 1/4/2018 2:43:16 AM EDT
While you're at it, here's another version you could do. I bet Ron @ Allen Engineering could get you all set up with an AEM 3 or 4 with knurling and everything and the right collar setup for a 10" L119 barrel. And the Vortex FH with OPS Inc threading are out there as well.





And then get back to me when you figure out how to replicate a C8 IUR upper, since it's apparently caught up in that whole "no sales or exportation of Colt Canada stuff to USA" thing. Currently it seems like the 9.2" YHM rail is the closest visual match, and I don't think any of the monolithic type uppers on the market could be milled or modified to match it as none use the standard M4 flat top upper, they're all billet with weirdo forward assist shapes and brass deflectors.





Link Posted: 1/4/2018 4:57:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2018 5:05:33 AM EDT by jondelong]
related...is there NO way to get Colt Canada stuff in the US???

ETA: this is what I was looking at: Colt MRR
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 9:49:34 AM EDT
@Augee - Thank you for the clarification, the US pattern pants always had me wondering on that, hence my skeptic comment on the source. Although there was a point where some guys got captured, it was back in 2003. It also adds more fuel to the fire which is my suspicion that the rifles are SBS and not SAS, specifically because the uppers are engraved with the serial, which seems to be unique to the SBS based on real world pictures and feedback from armourers.

@lancecriminal86 - At this point in time, a clone of a Canada rifle isn't on the cards. I'm doing the UK Rifle because I served in the British Army and it's kinda cool to merge my love of AR's and my prior history. The work its taken to get some of the correct parts has been almost acts of God, I don't want to have to try and get even more parts that require serious calling in of favors! The bottom rifle you linked is one of the more 'famous' C8 IUR rifles and it too has an engraved upper. There are some nice high quality pictures around.

@jondelong - There are ways I'm sure, but 99% of my stuff came from Gunbroker, Armslist and trawling old for sale posts after complex Google searches. I now have a huge collection of extra stuff, I might be the reigning king of LSO grips and Colt Canada buttstocks right now
As I understand it, things that are not significant military equipment and have a value under $100 are ITAR exempt. So I guess you could bring in endplates, castle nuts and things of that nature but I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
There is also an export/import license between Canada and the US specifically for people relocating to the US, allowing them to bring in their Canadian rifles. This appears to be the way that most people have brought stuff in in the past, but again I'm not sure how correct it is as there is a Canadian and US agreement that is supposed to stop cross border moving of Colt parts. I guess to protect jobs in both countries.
There is a also method if the guns are being brought in for R&D or repair, so a Colt employee here could bring in Colt Canada parts. Or in the case of the IUR, an LMT employee could do that also as LMT actually own the patent that the IUR uses for its monolithic rail upper.
Finally, back in the 90's, Colt themselves brought in a bunch of Diemaco forgings to complete here in the US, so they were machined to US spec, marked with M4 and anodized here (they are a dark black finish instead of the usual Colt grey). However they command a huge premium, I paid $600 for a stripped Diemaco upper a while back on Armslist.

@MILSPEC556 - That Colt FBI barrel is an amazing barrel. I guess due to it's profile it has zero whip and in the few rounds I've put through it (under 20) it was printing cloverleaf groups at 100yds. It actually found it's way into a friends clone L119A1 build so when finished his gun will have one more real Colt part than mine!
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 10:48:59 AM EDT
What's the deal with them placing optics on their handguards?
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 12:38:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2018 12:44:46 PM EDT by Kombatrok]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AS556:
What's the deal with them placing optics on their handguards?
View Quote
Pushing the optic out farther for quick aquisition during cqc and to free up the field of view or make more room for a magnifier. Its not unheard of, and with a really good quality free float rail, or mono upper is just fine as far as accuracy and zero shift.

*edit* the one picture shows him with the optic on what looks like the same drop in rail that I have on my issued Mk18... I dont know if I would trust that for mounting an optic personally, even though I do have my PEQ on it and its just fine as far as accuaracy using the laser under NODs... but that's generally cqc distance shooting.
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 12:49:10 PM EDT
In..this looks bad ass
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 1:50:19 PM EDT
Fascinating! I’m OCD about a lot of things but haven’t ventured into this realm yet. I’m particularly interested in the custom lower engraving to match the real thing. Looking forward to hearing a little more about how you acquired the various parts for this project. Thanks for sharing!
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 2:40:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2018 2:43:20 PM EDT by DwayneHicks]
In on page one. OP is a good dude and has been helping me with my best efforts to work on a clone L119a1 cqb.... it is still a work in progress to say the least. It has a long way to go before it is even close to saying its a clone, as she sits for now.

10.3" DD barrel (not correct), KAC RAS, usmc Acog (not correct) with shield and reddot, surefire scout m600, car15 stock with rubber but pad, tango down vert grip, atpial c, yhm 556 can (not correct), LSO grip. Needs a lot of improvement but it will get there eventually. Thanks to the OP.

A 10.3" barrel for this clone is like having a 10.5" for the Mk18 Mod 0/1



Link Posted: 1/4/2018 2:42:22 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DwayneHicks:
In on page one. OP is a good dude and has been helping me with my best efforts to work on a clone L119a1 cqb.... it is still a work in progress to say the least. It has a long way to go before it is even close to saying its a clone, as she sits for now.

10.3" DD barrel (not correct), KAC RAS, usmc Acog (not correct), surefire scout m600, car15 stock with rubber but pad, tango down vert grip, atpial c, yhm 556 can (not correct), LSO grip. Needs a lot of improvement but it will get there eventually. Thanks to the OP.

the 10.3" barrel for this model is like a 10.5" for the Mk18

http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a483/DwayneHicks100/IMG_5612_zpshl3hapiq.png
View Quote
Still looks awesome. The tape over the fiber optic tube even kind of makes it look like a TA01NSN.
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 2:48:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:

Still looks awesome. The tape over the fiber optic tube even kind of makes it look like a TA01NSN.
View Quote
Much appreciated sir. The tape was another OP recommendation. If only I had the funds for the correct surefire can!

To do list: 1) old school surefire 5.56 can; 2) chop the barrel to a true 10.0" 3) NSN ta01 acog in original mount; 4) surefire pressure switch; 5) anything Diemaco....
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 3:53:29 PM EDT
I'm in on this one
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 4:26:16 PM EDT
Silencer Shop had a few SF FA556-212's that they "found" in their warehouse a month or two ago and sold them for like $500. Would be nice to see those end up in the hands of a cloner. I wish I had seen the alert in time because I would have snagged one.
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 4:31:22 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Will816:
Silencer Shop had a few SF FA556-212's that they "found" in their warehouse a month or two ago and sold them for like $500. Would be nice to see those end up in the hands of a cloner. I wish I had seen the alert in time because I would have snagged one.
View Quote
The FA556-212 is not the correct suppressor for this build.

Because of the 15.7" barrel L119A1 that has the Simon sleeve, Surefire made a specific suppressor for use with Simon sleeves. It is the FA556-SA. It uses the FH556-216A flash hider.

It is basically the FA556-212 suppressor in terms of the internal baffle design, although I am told the SA has a slightly smaller bore than the 212 so may be quieter.

I have this suppressor awaiting transfer to me on a Form 3.

I'll try and draw up a chart the same as the Mk18 page has for the right parts.
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 4:50:06 PM EDT
They're on to the L119A2 now
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 8:13:43 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
View Quote
Interesting what rear sight is that?
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 8:14:51 PM EDT
In for updates....great job OP...please post detailed photos for us clone nerds as you move forward!
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 8:15:55 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By endermend:

Interesting what rear sight is that?
View Quote
Colt Canada made.
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 8:30:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:

Colt Canada made.
View Quote
Yup, however not actually issued on the L119A2. I'll create a separate thread for that rifle, I have one here. Some super interesting things were done with the upper.
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 8:34:38 PM EDT
Oh well, and another clone project.....in one page 1.
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 9:47:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By elucidate:
Yup, however not actually issued on the L119A2. I'll create a separate thread for that rifle, I have one here. Some super interesting things were done with the upper.
View Quote
Yes please! I'd love to see what they did to it that's different from the L119A1 outside of the new barrel profile and mono upper.
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 10:54:35 PM EDT
You know, I've been wondering what to do with this old thing:



I basically have all the parts to put one together with my FA556-212 minus a barrel...

Hmmm...

~Augee
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 1:54:35 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DwayneHicks:
In on page one. OP is a good dude and has been helping me with my best efforts to work on a clone L119a1 cqb.... it is still a work in progress to say the least. It has a long way to go before it is even close to saying its a clone, as she sits for now.

10.3" DD barrel (not correct), KAC RAS, usmc Acog (not correct) with shield and reddot, surefire scout m600, car15 stock with rubber but pad, tango down vert grip, atpial c, yhm 556 can (not correct), LSO grip. Needs a lot of improvement but it will get there eventually. Thanks to the OP.

A 10.3" barrel for this clone is like having a 10.5" for the Mk18 Mod 0/1

http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a483/DwayneHicks100/IMG_5441_zpsa5cbhgxa.jpg

http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a483/DwayneHicks100/IMG_5612_zpshl3hapiq.png
View Quote
This is sweet! I would definitely paint the entire rig
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 2:29:04 AM EDT
Neat. Good info. The A2 looks interesting too.
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 10:28:05 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
While you're at it, here's another version you could do. I bet Ron @ Allen Engineering could get you all set up with an AEM 3 or 4 with knurling and everything and the right collar setup for a 10" L119 barrel. And the Vortex FH with OPS Inc threading are out there as well.

https://shawglobalnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/arctic.jpg

https://warriorpublications.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/cf-op-nanook-2.jpg

And then get back to me when you figure out how to replicate a C8 IUR upper, since it's apparently caught up in that whole "no sales or exportation of Colt Canada stuff to USA" thing. Currently it seems like the 9.2" YHM rail is the closest visual match, and I don't think any of the monolithic type uppers on the market could be milled or modified to match it as none use the standard M4 flat top upper, they're all billet with weirdo forward assist shapes and brass deflectors.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fe/e9/fb/fee9fb0685fb1f9f62564d032566b4c3--police-gear-toyota.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VA5ITte.jpg

https://78.media.tumblr.com/1b3b5da8aeafc3359a1bbb40934c3db4/tumblr_ncu9xvj6WD1rhrguuo2_1280.jpg
View Quote
Ok. That’s a dope gun. On a side note, love how he is holding the VFG. The correct way!
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 11:42:06 AM EDT
Very interesting topic.

I’m in for the knowledge.
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 12:17:16 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FullAutoHound:
Ok. That’s a dope gun. On a side note, love how he is holding the VFG. The correct way!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FullAutoHound:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
While you're at it, here's another version you could do. I bet Ron @ Allen Engineering could get you all set up with an AEM 3 or 4 with knurling and everything and the right collar setup for a 10" L119 barrel. And the Vortex FH with OPS Inc threading are out there as well.

https://shawglobalnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/arctic.jpg

https://warriorpublications.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/cf-op-nanook-2.jpg

And then get back to me when you figure out how to replicate a C8 IUR upper, since it's apparently caught up in that whole "no sales or exportation of Colt Canada stuff to USA" thing. Currently it seems like the 9.2" YHM rail is the closest visual match, and I don't think any of the monolithic type uppers on the market could be milled or modified to match it as none use the standard M4 flat top upper, they're all billet with weirdo forward assist shapes and brass deflectors.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fe/e9/fb/fee9fb0685fb1f9f62564d032566b4c3--police-gear-toyota.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VA5ITte.jpg

https://78.media.tumblr.com/1b3b5da8aeafc3359a1bbb40934c3db4/tumblr_ncu9xvj6WD1rhrguuo2_1280.jpg
Ok. That’s a dope gun. On a side note, love how he is holding the VFG. The correct way!
What peq is that? Looks like a 15 with a white light?
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 12:42:36 PM EDT
Subbed.

I really wish the Colt Canada rifles were easier to get. I have a BCM C8 SFW upper and that kind of triggered my desire to get some more. Both versions of the L119A2 are tits.
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 1:45:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2018 6:26:11 PM EDT by elucidate]


One of the things that makes the L119A1 (I'm going to ignore the L119A2 entirely in this thread as I can start a new one about that) hard to clone, but also easier to clone in a way, is the complete lack of standards as we would see with a Mk18.

As an example, the Colt TDP was set, and then everything conformed to those standards, disregarding COTS buys etc. On the Mk18 thread, we see a fairly definitive chart of how the rifle was issued from Crane, and we have a nice easy reference as to what was issued with specific lifecycles of the gun (Mod0, Mod1, CQBR).

The way the L119A1 was issued is 'messy' by comparison as we have a fairly unique distribution path.

As I understand it, Diemaco/Colt Canada makes the guns in Kitchener, Ontario but due to some unique circumstances and it being primarily a Canada military product manufacturing site, anything 'aftermarket' has to be added outside of the factory. For civilian sales, that is done by O'Dell who are the distributors for civilian sales within Canada. For Military, O'Dell may do some things but the vast majority is done in country by the UK Military.
This leads to some fairly unique configurations, especially over the years as products advance, and of course the specific Regiment that is using the rifle.

The L119A1 is primarily a Special Forces issue weapon which also allows for some user customization. The primary users are SAS, SBS and SFSG, with a slightly different and more uniform config being issued to the Royal Marine Commandos. (This should be past tense for UKSF, they have been moving onto the L119A2 since 2015).

So what follows is not an exhaustive list, it's simply a list of things I have actual evidence of (via pictures and talking to verified users of the platform). I'll edit/add to this as I remember.

As I build this clone out I'll expand on the specifics on what I've written below. If people find pictures that add color to the list below please share!

LOWER
Receiver markings - Diemaco D with NSN, Diemaco D without NSN, Colt Canada without NSN. None have any selector markings on right hand side
Stock - Canada CAR style with the texture and rubber pad (most common), UKSF also have Colt CAR N1, Magpul CTR, Vltor iMod CCB
Lower Receiver extension - Colt Canada 2 position. Basically same as US 2 position but with Colt Canada grey anodizing
Action Spring - Standard Carbine
Action Buffer - H2
Receiver extension Nut - Colt Canada, this is the one that isn't a castle nut, the same as the old Colt one
Endplate - Colt Canada UK ambi sling loop, Magpul ASAP
Pivot Pins - Colt Canada, so closer in color to retro Colt grey
Trigger - Older guns have Colt standard, newer guns have Geissele SSF.
Magazine release and button - Standard but Colt Canada color finish anodizing/parkerizing
Bolt Catch - Standard, again the grey color is more correct
Selector - Both old and later Colt style lever with a large triangle tick mark on right hand side. Also very limited Colt Canada ambi selectors have been seen.
Pistol Grip - Lone Star Armory is most common, also Ergo, A2, Hogue and Magpul

UPPER
Upper Receiver - Colt Canada with 1913 rail (not M4 and not Canadian Weaver)
Charging Handle - Standard
BCG - Diemaco with Devtek D on carrier. Bolt has MPD and batch number engraved. Also has insert, o-ring and increased strength spring for extractor
Barrel - This is a Colt Canada chrome lined barrel, and although it is listed as a 10" it actually measures out at 9.8-9.9"
FSB - Non F marked. Sling swivel attached. This is standard profile unlike the Simon grenade capable 15.7" FSBs.
Front Sight - Diemaco
Muzzle device - Surefire FH556-216A, A2
Rail - KAC RIS, KAC RAS, KAC Canadian/UK SAS RAS

OPTICS
ACOG TA01NSN with and without Shield mini-sight, Aimpoint Comp M4, Aimpoint T1 with and without magnifier,
ACOG TA01NSN with RMR on Larue QD mount for Royal Marines
TA01BUIS-RM06-UK on newer guns and L119A2 variants. (this looks like a black TA01 with ECOS irons and RMR, differentiated from the TA31 because no fiber optic)

ACCESSORIES
PEQ2
Insight LA-5/PEQ
Flashlights are still somewhat of a mystery but I have pictures of many, all are Surefire. No other brand spotted
Some guns have the Garmin Foretrex 401 attached
Vertical grips include KAC, TangoDown, Grip-Pod and the CAA grip

ALL
Anodizing is a mix between retro Colt and current Colt insofar as it is a dark grey color. It is also very smooth and professional looking in comparison to the usual Colt USA chalky/uneven finish.

Here is my picture submission for this post, a real endplate, notice it's not as nice as the Colt Canada 'Canada' one which Augee has posted above, as you can attach HK hook to the Canadian one.


The UK endplate is made by Colt Canada to the UK requirements, as it's an ambi style made with 'slots' to run slings through. No-one actually does that though, the most commonly seen solution is a grenade ring attached and the sling HK hook attached to the ring.
Pretty much all of the guns today have had these swapped out for Magpul ASAP endplates.
Interestingly, it seems the Royal Marines have ended up with the Colt Canada endplate, so again variations on a theme exist! (unless the below is a CQD, certainly possible without being able to see the other side)


EDIT TO ADD RM ENDPLATE PIC
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 4:58:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2018 5:01:32 PM EDT by Spade]
75% of me wants to do this. 25% of me is irritated by the possibility of sending a 10.3 or 10.5 inch barrel off to get a tiny amount of barrel cut off.

Of course, it'll be on a horribly non-clone correct Crusader lower.

ETA: I haven't seen any pics of anybody with anything other than an ACOG too. Any pics? I really want that ACOG with the RMR, but optics that cost more than the gun is a new experience for me.
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 5:30:06 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Spade:
ETA: I haven't seen any pics of anybody with anything other than an ACOG too. Any pics? I really want that ACOG with the RMR, but optics that cost more than the gun is a new experience for me.
View Quote
Link Posted: 1/5/2018 9:50:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2018 9:57:18 PM EDT by iNeXile556]
...
Link Posted: 1/6/2018 3:22:25 AM EDT
Never been more excited about a clone thread.
Link Posted: 1/6/2018 5:44:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By jondelong:
related...is there NO way to get Colt Canada stuff in the US???

ETA: this is what I was looking at: Colt MRR
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Other then the barrel and lower, 100% importable.

You don't even need an importer to help you.. You just need to submit an ATF form 6 (import permit)..

Just need someone in Canada to ship it. I assume you would need an export license, so I assume you would need an exporter that can get an export licence.
Link Posted: 1/7/2018 2:34:33 PM EDT
Very interesting thread. I love all the minute details such as the R not being centered. I’ve been using C7s and C8s for over thwenty years and never noticed that. I’m sure it will stick out the next time I draw my weapon.

C8CQB clone would be interesting as well but I don’t believe the CF used them very long.
Link Posted: 1/7/2018 6:22:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2018 6:28:21 PM EDT by elucidate]
Now for the upper.

This is a real, 100% genuine, used by the SAS, upper.



Notice the Diemaco/Devtek D forging code and the Cerro keyhole. Colt Canada seems to deviate on forging companies less than Colt US for its military contracts, I don't think I've ever seen a non Cerro military upper, and even the L119A2 lowers have the cerro keyhole on them near the trigger guard.

Perhaps the only way to clone this rifle in the USA is to use one of the imported Diemaco uppers that were cut to M4 spec, those were from Anchor Harvey, Brass Aluminum and potentially others, and I'll cover those in an upcoming post.

The C7 series Canadian rifles pre-date MIL-STD-1913 (Picatinny rail) so the Canadian uppers differ insofar as they have 14 slots instead of 13, the distance between slots is narrower and the rail is higher. The rail being higher allows the use of standard front sight bases (no need for F marked FSBs).
However, on the uppers I've seen, they have all been marked 1913 at the front (where Colt marks theirs M4 and Canadian Weaver are unmarked, so this is a third variation). I have only seen somewhat recent (2005 and newer) variants of the gun so I do now know what the earlier examples used.



Interestingly, there are some Diemaco specific variations on the 1913 marked upper.

First, it is taller, like the standard Canadian Weaver, retaining the ability to use non F-marked sight bases.

As the 1913 on the front might have given away, it does not have M4 cuts for the barrel extension.

It has a chamfer at the front


I have also yet to see any Diemaco/Colt Canada L119A1 uppers with T markings on the upper. I have seen brand new uppers and older used ones, none seem to have T markings.

The rear of the upper is where it gets interesting, look at this profiling. I'm not exactly sure why they have it, but there will be a good, well thought out reason knowing CC. It is also easy to see the extra slot on this picture. A normal US upper has a longer area with no slots.


I have a couple of the Diemaco imported uppers that Colt US machined currently stripped and awaiting anodizing. I'll try make that the next post so the differences can be seen.

Colt US anodizes a much darker color than Colt Canada so I have stripped the Diemaco M4 uppers and am re-anodizing in Colt Canada grey.
Link Posted: 1/7/2018 9:41:31 PM EDT
Great work elucidate.
Link Posted: 1/8/2018 12:05:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AS556:
What's the deal with them placing optics on their handguards?
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for the nods.

dude probably prefers being super compact, he looks to be some version of vbss
Link Posted: 1/8/2018 1:46:46 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By flushot:
for the nods.

dude probably prefers being super compact, he looks to be some version of vbss
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Originally Posted By flushot:
Originally Posted By AS556:
What's the deal with them placing optics on their handguards?
for the nods.

dude probably prefers being super compact, he looks to be some version of vbss
Apparently it was JTF-2 on some big annual exercise/demo.
Link Posted: 1/8/2018 6:34:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By flushot:
for the nods.

dude probably prefers being super compact, he looks to be some version of vbss
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Originally Posted By flushot:
Originally Posted By AS556:
What's the deal with them placing optics on their handguards?
for the nods.

dude probably prefers being super compact, he looks to be some version of vbss
It used to be somewhat popular back when the JTF2 was still using C8s with carry handle uppers.

As for uppers they used to use Waltec for most of the carry handle uppers. Strange that they seem to sourcing the flat top forging from the US.
Link Posted: 1/9/2018 8:37:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By flushot:

for the nods.

dude probably prefers being super compact, he looks to be some version of vbss
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Nods as in NV?

I thought 2 piece drop in rails weren't adequate for holding a zero? Or even freefloat for that matter
Link Posted: 1/9/2018 9:05:35 PM EDT
For people looking for parts to clone their own L119A1, one of the hardest things to find is the endplate.

On the left is the real, as issued, L119A1 endplate. The middle is the current closest US made part, the GG&G endplate. And the right is a similar, non-ambi (but it can be set up for either orientation) Vltor endplate.

I think the best option for US builds would be to strip a GG&G endplate and re-parkerize it (John Thomas does a great job of this).



Alternatively, simply build a newer L119A1 and use the Magpul ASAP plate!
Link Posted: 1/9/2018 10:31:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AS556:
Nods as in NV?

I thought 2 piece drop in rails weren't adequate for holding a zero? Or even freefloat for that matter
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Originally Posted By AS556:
Originally Posted By flushot:

for the nods.

dude probably prefers being super compact, he looks to be some version of vbss
Nods as in NV?

I thought 2 piece drop in rails weren't adequate for holding a zero? Or even freefloat for that matter
Drop in's aren't optimal, but the way a KAC M4 RAS top rail secures to the barrel nut and hand guard cap is pretty solid. The whole U.S. mil has been using their PEQ's M4 RAS mounted for decades. Holds a zero decent enough
Link Posted: 1/9/2018 10:59:44 PM EDT
In.

Thanks for the write up.
Link Posted: 1/11/2018 1:58:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2018 2:00:09 AM EDT by ScruffyElephant]
This is an absolutely exciting thread! This has been helpful for me in my quest to build both a C8-SFW (FTHB/A3?) and a C8-CQB! I'm kind of jealous of Augee because his Colt Canada sling mount doesn't appear to be previously staked. Colt Canada doesn't manufacture spare parts, so you'll have to find a take-off (good luck). The one I have was previously staked in two places (obviously Mil-Spec requirements), but was carefully removed.

Are there any specs on the Diemaco SAS upper you have? I have both Anchor Harvey and Cerro Forge Diemaco uppers imported by Colt, and I plan on giving the uppers a chamfer (hopefully most of the chamfer will erode most of the "M4" marking), engrave "1913," rear scallop, and a 14th slot to make it similar to the Canadian spec uppers.
Link Posted: 1/11/2018 9:50:12 AM EDT
Well well well, wonders never cease!

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/737359001

Thats alotta cash!! But if you REALLLLY wanted a clone correct as all get out upper... well, there ya go, bubba!
Link Posted: 1/11/2018 10:01:30 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Tf1041:
Well well well, wonders never cease!

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/737359001

Thats alotta cash!! But if you REALLLLY wanted a clone correct as all get out upper... well, there ya go, bubba!
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It's also a complete rip off.

It is NOT a L119 upper by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't know if the seller bought it under false pretenses or if the seller is the one with no scruples, but there are multiple red flags.



1. Colt Canada never had contract over-run L119A1s
2. The seller wont send further pictures (because I suspect he knows its a fake). Who refuses to send further info on a $6k upper?!
3. The upper is a US made M4 upper which is a 6520 take-off, it does not have the Canada anodizing, it is M4 marked, it has T markings and most telling, it it not the Canada profile.
4. The barrel is a US made specialized Armament barrel, it has an F marked front sight and is not a Diemaco made barrel
5. The KAC RAS is not the correct UK spec RAS
6. The bolt is not a Diemaco bolt
7. Most worrying, the proof marking on the bolt is fake.

The only thing real Colt Canada about that entire ad is the carry handle. Because of the last point, I am pretty sure someone is willingly and knowingly faking the upper.

The thing is, it's clearly been faked by someone who knows jack shit about L119A1 uppers, because everything is wrong once you take more than a cursory glance.

This thread, once I finish it out, will help you make more clone correct uppers at a price less than half of what that guy is asking.
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