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Posted: 4/13/2003 11:55:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2003 11:57:37 AM EDT by Wipeout]
I am seriously thinking about making a pistol type ar15. I would be permanitley fixing a 30rd magazine to the lower, so I wouldn't have to worry about the AWB stuff (weight, handguard and vertical foregrip and flash hider and such) And I also would be pluging the buffer hole with a plug. to top it all off would be an OA93 upper, or a similer one.

Now, what I am wondering is....what would I have to do to fix the magazine to the lower? What does the ATF consider permanitley attached? would I have to weld a nut over the mag release? weld the mag to the reciever? rivet the mag to the reciver? use an epoxy of some sort? anyone with any expirence in AR pistols? Any help would be greatley apprecieated. Thanks


BTW...this would be just a gun that I can shoot for fun and stuff like that...so don't try to talk me out of it with all the "5.56 has almost no velocity out of a 6" barrel" and the likes
Link Posted: 4/13/2003 6:14:05 PM EDT
btt for the night crew
Link Posted: 4/13/2003 6:48:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2003 3:50:27 AM EDT
...so I wouldn't have to worry about the AWB stuff (weight, handguard and vertical foregrip and flash hider and such)
View Quote

You need to worry about the vertical foregrip as your weapon is still subject to the NFA.  A vertical foregrip on a pistol makes the weapon an AOW requiring a $200 tax to register ($5 to transfer)
Link Posted: 4/14/2003 3:59:51 AM EDT
why do you want to do all that.the ar pistols you can buy dont have fixed mags etc..... besides how are you gonna reload?
Link Posted: 4/14/2003 5:41:28 AM EDT
Well, here are a few other threads that are on the forums that may help others...  

(Whipeout, I know you had seen these)

[url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=26&t=161623&w=myTopicPop[/url]

As for perminantly mounting the magazine, I think you would be SMART to get something from the ATF in writing!  

Just remember you are looking at the part of the law that referres to a SEMIAUTO PISTOL with a DETACHABLE MAGAZINE!!!!  The question is, what does the ATF define to be a detachable magazine?  

I would argue that for you to make a CRIME BILL legal SemiAuto Pistol from an AR-15 does not REALLY require that the magazine be perminantly mounted (but the ATF could disagree!) only that the magazine doesn't fall into the category of being detachable!

So, does a magazine that is bolted fast, such that tools are required for removal, fall into the category of a detachable magazine?  I do not know and I would ask the ATF!  I would also be very careful on how you word your question as if you leave it too vague, the ATF will give you an answer like "If it's detachable it's illegal..." or "... as long as it can be detached it's ..." as per ".... of the law".

As Troy said, Olympic Arms had incorporated a few measures to attach their magazine including the roll pins, and I thought the magazine looked soldered or perhaps welded in place?  Also, there was no mag release button and you would really have a bugger of a time removing the magazine!

Also remember however, that Olympic Arms as a Manufacturer has far greater liability if one of their pistols was to be converted into an illegal format.  If you are doing this fr your own use, your liability is limited to what you do with your own gun!

My guns are safe as I own them and I don't need to worry about what someone else may do.  This is quitw unlike what SOMEBODY could do with it if I sold thousands to people that I don't know, like in the case of Olympic Arms.

If you need help writing a letter, E-mail me and I will work with you to craft a letter where we can get the ATF to answer the important questions.  I would really like to know the answers myself!

Also, state laws can be more restrictive than the federal laws as I understand CA laws are much more specific.  I am no expert on the CA laws but I thought this should be added to the topic!



Link Posted: 4/14/2003 5:47:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scooper:
why do you want to do all that.the ar pistols you can buy dont have fixed mags etc..... besides how are you gonna reload?
View Quote


The lower would be reloaded in a way that is similar to the FAB 10.  

[url]http://quarterbore.com/ar15m16/fab10.htm[/url]

I will be preparing an OA-93, OA-96, and OA-98 webpage soon that will show these weapons but I am still trying to get some additional images.

The reason someone would want an AR-15 style pistol may vary, but it's like someone asking you why you need an AR-15....?

I never wanted an AR-15 pistol until some f-ing law made it so hard to get one.  Now I want one and I am looking at solutions and I am building one!
Link Posted: 4/14/2003 5:56:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

You need to worry about the vertical foregrip as your weapon is still subject to the NFA.  A vertical foregrip on a pistol makes the weapon an AOW requiring a $200 tax to register ($5 to transfer)
View Quote


How sure of this are you?

This is another of those issues that isn't clear to me as why would the vertical fore-grip be included in the list of features in the crime bill if pistols can't have these?  

I know for an AOW the forward grip is needed and that the grip can not be removable....  Does it mean that you can not use a removable vertical grip on a pistol?  IT MAY WELL BE THE CASE!!!

I do not know!!!  This is another issue for the ATF to clarify, but I will guess this question has been asked and the answer is published!
Link Posted: 4/14/2003 6:58:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scooper:
why do you want to do all that.the ar pistols you can buy dont have fixed mags etc..... besides how are you gonna reload?
View Quote


If I fix the mag, Idon't have to worry about the weight and I can have a flash hider and (pending fouther investigation) a foregrip and vertical grip.
Link Posted: 4/14/2003 8:15:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2003 8:27:42 AM EDT by monkeyman]
This is what I am going to do.

I have a new postban stripped lower that I registered as a pistol and installed internal parts. I have a pistol buffer/spring/tube on order from Model 1 Sales.

I am planning on soldering a nut onto the mag release after the insertion of a 30 round mag.

I am also going to drill and then rivet the mag to the magwell through the front of the mag well for good measure.

Since one would have to load the mag by opening the upper, I am thinking of afixing a ring on the rear dissasembly pin to make it easier and faster to open up.

Haven't decided wheither to use a 11.5" shorty upper and use it as a pistol or actually get a short pistol upper. If I bought a 11.5" upper I could eventually add a long flash hider to it for use on a preban rifle lower.

Link Posted: 4/14/2003 9:13:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2003 9:19:35 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Originally Posted By monkeyman:
This is what I am going to do.



View Quote


One suggestion, you may want to consider doing a little modification to your lower to help a stripper clip guide work with your fixed magazine!  I am about 95% sure that the OA-96 lower had some area milled out around the rear portion of the magazine to allow the stripper clip guide to be placed onto the 30-rd mag.  

You will also likely notice that the BOLT CATCH will be in the way of your stripper clip guide BUT given that you will not want your action to remain open after the last shot I assume you will remove this!

Both of these are minor tasks, but tasks that you should be aware that they will be needed before you start!  

Please keep me informed with your project and if you would like I would love to share your project on my website!

Oh yea, here is the OA-96 manual to help (not that the drawings really show much) [url]http://www.ar15.com/content/books/manual_olyarms_oa.pdf[/url]

See Page 6!
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