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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/20/2005 2:38:09 PM EDT
I spoke to a long time machinest/gun builder and from the impression he gave me he said that a screw build might be stronger than rivets..Can this be true or opinion..Im not sure,He spoke of some ak rifles that had rivets that came loose and said it is alot more difficult to fix a rivet than tighten a screw..I was thinking of a screw build on a m-92 yugo..I dont have many means of doing rivet builds and the idea of trying to get the barrel back in the trunnion sounds difficult..well just want a little honest feedbackk...thanks
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 3:07:45 PM EDT
INCOMING!!!
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 3:54:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2005 3:55:04 PM EDT by Andreuha]
Rivets: cleaner looking, faster, cheaper.
Screws: more expensive and time staking installation, anything but the exact right screw choice (namely the head) will look very tacky.

The AK is a very low stress rifle; you can install the trunions with toothpicks and it will run (for atleast a couple of rounds). In terms of life expectancy, the rivets will fail LONG after every moving part on the rifle has.
As outlined above, screws are much more expensive and time staking to install compared to rivets; moreover, the use of rivets decreases the odds of the screws shaking themselves loose and your rifle coming apart in the field (especially in the days before loctite), and removes the ability of a soldier disassemble a rifle in the field (ie, in an army where doing your own sight adjustments was strictly prohibited and enforced),.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 6:49:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2005 7:35:26 PM EDT by JoeBud]
You might as well ask which is stronger, paper or plastic. Yes, one is probably stronger than the other, but its obvious they are both "strong enough". I've screwed together some myself and have a couple rivetted by a friend. I don't question the strength of either.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 7:20:54 PM EDT
the screw by itself is alot stronger than a rivet by itself

to think the joint of a SCREWED gun is stronger than a riveted gun is just stupid
im not gonna get into it cause they are both strong enough
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 8:06:28 PM EDT
If Kalashnikov screwed them together I would be too. Since they are riveted then so shall I.
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 8:31:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 6:48:45 AM EDT
I riveted a kit together on a home built flat and shot it. I was just experimenting and tore the gun back down. The riveted gun is a real SOB to tear apart if you try bending the receiver off. The metal on the receiver didn't tear, all the rivets had to be ground down and drilled out.
Screws will loosen, rivets won't if properly installed.
A rivet job makes a better AK in my opinion.
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 7:26:17 AM EDT
The strength of a screw fastener is mostly related to the thread engagement. On the screw builds I have done, the thread engagement is minimal...my money for strength is on a properly done rivet. If you ask a machinist which is stronger, you have to give them all the information to compare the fastener systems.

Also, when you finish your first screw build you feel pretty ok since you just built a gun in your garage....

When you finish a rivet build, you feel like Tha-Shit...you just made an AK as Kalashnikov would have done it...
Link Posted: 7/21/2005 8:54:14 AM EDT
I've done a couple of screw builds to get the hang of things, they look good and function fine,
will I ever have to rebuild them?, yeah but only cause I'll want too.
fwiw, my next build in going to be with rivets, cause I know what it takes to build an ak now, and
rivets are just the next step for me.
this rivet/screw arguement is old hat, if it was just an longevity/durability thing, wouldn't every
one be welding them instead? I mean since its faster, cheaper and looks good if done properly,
course its permanent too, so I guess it would probably take a little longer to rebuild/repalce
say a worn mag catch or a broken stock tang or press a barrel out since you'd have to do it with
the trunion in the receiver.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:38:32 AM EDT
Slightly off topic, but the extra tools you need for the rivet job could be considered as well.
You'd need a rivet squeezer, a press for the removal and insertion of barrel (or a BFH and a big damn vise). Plus checking for headspacing as well.
Those things alone make me veer back to a screw build. Having to buy a bunch of extra tools to build one in my cramped shop is a deal breaker for me.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:48:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 11:50:46 AM EDT by trvo]
Another thing, One day you might want to sell that gun. A gun you built. You are the manufacturer, and you are liable for what you build and sell to a lawsuit happy idiot who blows himself up doing something wrong, or the person he accidentally shot with it. A screw build, you can simply take it apart and sell a parts kit, just like you bought, and maybe sell the stripped receiver to someone else. No body knows what will be available in the next 10-30 years. parts kits might be worth a fortune. I suppose you could just cut the receiver apart like current kits are demiled, but you might be cutting up a $350 receiver sometime in the future.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:20:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By trvo:
Another thing, One day you might want to sell that gun. A gun you built. You are the manufacturer, and you are liable for what you build and sell to a lawsuit happy idiot who blows himself up doing something wrong, or the person he accidentally shot with it. A screw build, you can simply take it apart and sell a parts kit, just like you bought, and maybe sell the stripped receiver to someone else. No body knows what will be available in the next 10-30 years. parts kits might be worth a fortune. I suppose you could just cut the receiver apart like current kits are demiled, but you might be cutting up a $350 receiver sometime in the future.



Unless you made the receiver yourself from a flat and sold it, you do not have any liability as far as being a manufacturer. Simply be upfront with the buyer that you built it up from a kit and you have no liability, the firearm is considered used and sold "as is".

But that doesn't stop you from getting sued, you could get sued if you sold him a gun made by Kalashnikov himself. There is an old saying, "Anyone can sue you anytime for anything." But as far as the law goes they would** not win in court.

**Unless some commie liberal judge wanted to make a point and make up his own new law...
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:25:47 PM EDT
I don't believe for a minute that screws are stronger than rivets. There's a reason that aircraft still depend heavily on rivets and it's not because they're cheaper or easier to install.
A properly riveted joint will be much stronger that a screwed connection.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 2:36:03 PM EDT
really I think that this is more of an opinion based question..Ive spoke to several different people about this topic and some thought screws are stronger than rivets and vice versa...Now if the kalashnikov was built with screws from the get go,I think we would have arguements on how screws are better than rivets...Well I think it all personal prefrence,as for me screw building is in my means,would i like to use rivets of course it looks more original,but for my limited space i choose screws...You can fill the tips of the screws so they ressemble,rivets,but well than you would be defying the purpose,of breaking the rifle down complete if you wanted,to..Do what you can do,and if you feel comfortable with it who cares,i mean lets face it your not going to take this thing into combat,most people use them for target and a rare few hunting..But I dont think many of us will have them tied to our backs and swimming or climbing through the sand dunes of iraq..thanks
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:59:50 PM EDT
I am certain that grade 8 screws have much more shear strength than rivets. But having said that, rivets are EVERY BIT as strong as you will ever need on an AK. As has already been said, AKs are pretty low stress on their fasteners, and rivets will never back out on you and they look sooooooooooo much better than screws. They are much more professional looking and the rifle is more valuable in the long run.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:30:04 PM EDT
I wounder if the uses of rivets in this weapon is for simplifying production ( and lower cost), just as using rivets in aircraft is. I visted the Golden Gate bridge last Sept , they have an on-going project of removing the all the rivets (over 3,000,000 in each tower cross member) and replacing them with high strength alloy bolts and nuts, the weakness in rivets is they must be soft enough to be formed by the rivet setting tool, that and a screw thread has nearly twice the bearing surface as a rivet (two sides too each thread). Keeping the screw tight is the major problem I see, would you use lock or toothed washers, or nylon-insert-locking screws (nylon doesn't stand up to heat well), lock-tight , is there enough heat to soften it?
I'm about to start my first build and the rivet vs the screw issue has my full attention, there is one other thing that rattles around in my head, Im retired military, ordnance was my field and I couldn't count the number of rounds I put through M1919 and M2 HB machine guns, both these weapon had their side plates riveted together and I never saw any of them ever come lose, come to think about it the M60 MG's reciver was riveted too.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:53:20 PM EDT
WELD!
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 2:21:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sleepercaprice1:
I don't believe for a minute that screws are stronger than rivets. There's a reason that aircraft still depend heavily on rivets and it's not because they're cheaper or easier to install.
A properly riveted joint will be much stronger that a screwed connection.



Aircraft use *aluminum* rivets for lower weight, they still have lots of steel bolts, hi-loks and screws where the rivets aren't strong enough.

The question isn't - are screws stronger than rivets? - the answer is obvious given the softness of the AK rivets.
The question is what makes a superior build - the short grip length of screws in an AK build looks bad to me and the trunnion wasn't designed for threaded fasteners anyway. Rivets swell to fill any imperfections and obviously have sufficient shear strength and are proven to last.
A couple of "I heard AK's shear them rivets" doesn't mean anything, even if true, millions of these rifles have been riveted together and fired billions of times.
If you're good enough to thread all those holes, you can smash rivets with no problem and not have to explain why your AK has screws hanging out of it.

That said obvoiusly screws work - for now anyway, we'll see how things work long-term later on - so have fun and build your AK already -
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:48:08 PM EDT
I recently received a 1.0mm Armory/Global receiver which came with a warning about using screws rather than rivets. Something like "designed to be riveted and 40+ years of manufacturing knowledge - if you build using screws you are venturing into unknown territory."
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:50:13 AM EDT
A person may be good enough to tap and screw all those holes on it but still not want to do a rivet build, given the extra, large tools needed (namely a press,). The BFH and a big vise method is also kind of prohibitive in some cases. Also, I don't want to mess with headspacing, thats even more tools I need then.
For those of use who don't have a big enough shop, a screw build is perfectly valid.

That warning the receiver company put with their receiver sounds pretty lame, given the evidence that screw builds are a valid option as well. LOTS of screw builds out there now, many from this board.

I think both methods are fine. Either will be perfectly functional, if done right.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:53:34 AM EDT
the major prob with screw builds is if you ever wanna sell your rifle
you will be lucky to get what you payed for parts out of it and it will never be worth much more than that
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:03:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By socandyman:
the major prob with screw builds is if you ever wanna sell your rifle
you will be lucky to get what you payed for parts out of it and it will never be worth much more than that



Agreed.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:20:16 PM EDT
as a novice builder having built:

Welded rifles
Screwed together rifles
Riveted rifles

With no prior experience i would have to say that allthough the screw togethers will work perfectly. Riveted rifles just feal more sturdy/solid. I may be a rookie builder but i am a very experienced shooter. Anyone who knows rifles can pick one up and by look and feal just tell the difrence between a well built gun and a gun. In my opinion thats the difrence rivets make. Look, feal and authenticity.

If you screw this one together you'll end up riveting it later. (you can take out the screws and eventually buck rivets when you can) Why do it twice, do it right the first time save yourself some frustration. And get what you really want.

Good luck man. - Zap
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 9:42:30 PM EDT
I expect a screw build would last a long time if they don't get a steady diet of Blue pills. the whole point of a rivit though is that the compression forces both pieces of metal and the rivit become one piece. If you don't beleave try digging out the rivits still set in demilled kits. I personaly would never again do a build without removing barrel first even if you don't have a hydraulic press yourself someome you know probably does. I get my bucking tool from Tandy leather for about $6 the only rivits they won't do is rears on front trunnion, a nice place for a screw but it sizes out to number 12 button head machine screw, and they are rarer than truth from Bill Clinton. In the long run thier are other ways but the easiest is always the wright way. if you need hell e-mail with questions i've built about 10 now and have tried the all.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:51:37 PM EDT
I drilled and tapped my front trunnion and used high grade button head screws and loctighted them in. No problems so far and it doesnt look tacky IMO.
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