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Posted: 10/28/2006 7:07:51 PM EST
Ok, I currently have a 762X39 vepr and am thinking about trading a buddy for a .223 vepr instead. What say ye? I have read in some places that an ak is not as dependable in .223 because of the design, is this true? I am trying to standardize on the .223 caliber with ar's, but do not want to compromise my reliability. Anyone in the know? Thanks
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 7:52:12 PM EST
I'm in a similar boat, I have a VEPR II in 7.62x39, and a friend has one in .223. I've tried to get him to sell it to me, no go. It's a very sweet rifle, shoots great, accurate too.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 8:31:03 PM EST
A well made .223 AK is almost as reliable as a 7.62x39 one.
The .223s straighter case hurts a little, but it will still be far more reliable than a AR15.

I'd make the trade if I wanted only one caliber (I prefer to have at least one of each).
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 8:50:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
A well made .223 AK is almost as reliable as a 7.62x39 one.

Well made AK= VEPR, Saiga, Arsenal, etc...
I can accept that...

BUT...

Originally Posted By BulletBait:The .223s straighter case hurts a little, but it will still be far more reliable than a AR15.

I'm not buying it....
How does the straighter case hurt?? ...Far more reliable than a AR-15??
I wouldn't go as far as saying "far more reliable." There are very many reliable AR type
weapons out there in todays market. Many of them are very reliable. More than reliable
enough for the normal range use that their owners put them through.
Dont get me wrong, I love the AK design, but to say that a AK in .223 is vastly more reliable than a QUALITY AR in the same caliber is simply inaccurate.

Besides, if you wanted the ultimate in reliability from a sub-30 cal weapon,
you would be buying a gun in 5.45x39 and never looking back...

KyAKGuy

Link Posted: 10/28/2006 8:31:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kyarguy:

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
A well made .223 AK is almost as reliable as a 7.62x39 one.

Well made AK= VEPR, Saiga, Arsenal, etc...
I can accept that...

BUT...

Originally Posted By BulletBait:The .223s straighter case hurts a little, but it will still be far more reliable than a AR15.

I'm not buying it....
How does the straighter case hurt??


The straighter case "sticks" to the chamber wall more tightly after firing and is less forgiving to dirt and fouling.

...Far more reliable than a AR-15??
I wouldn't go as far as saying "far more reliable." There are very many reliable AR type
weapons out there in todays market. Many of them are very reliable. More than reliable
enough for the normal range use that their owners put them through.
Dont get me wrong, I love the AK design, but to say that a AK in .223 is vastly more reliable than a QUALITY AR in the same caliber is simply inaccurate.

The original poster was concerned about reliability, he didn't say how far he planned on pushing it.
Most AR magazines are made of glass ( the new $$$$ stainless ones are nice) compared to an AKs, and mags are where most problems start.
The newer ARs are good when clean or just powder fouled, but the AK will eat a lot more dirt before jamming, both in the rifle and in the mags, nobody argues this.
This IMO make it "far more reliable".


Besides, if you wanted the ultimate in reliability from a sub-30 cal weapon,
you would be buying a gun in 5.45x39 and never looking back...

Agreed.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 8:33:48 PM EST
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

T­alk about a gilitch in the Matrix!!!!
I "posted" my response before Kyarguy could answer.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 8:35:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 8:37:56 PM EST by BulletBait]
Hell, I can get more in on him for another 11 minutes


this is what I'm seeing.

Originally posted by: bulletbait---Posted :: 10/28/2006 11:35:31 PM MST


Originally posted by: Kyarguy-----Posted :: 10/28/2006 11:50:58 PM MST
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 8:43:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 8:44:37 PM EST by NavajoGunOwner]

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
Hell, I can get more in on him for another 11 minutes


this is what I'm seeing.

Originally posted by: bulletbait---Posted :: 10/28/2006 11:35:31 PM MST


Originally posted by: Kyarguy-----Posted :: 10/28/2006 11:50:58 PM MST
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV



I being to taht for the last hour , something to with the time change, my post have been jumping back wards into the thread.

ETA, dang we are in the same time zone KYarguy is back east.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 9:01:58 PM EST
Back to normal now
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 3:53:13 AM EST
Woaa! That was strange... must of had something to do with the time change....

KyAKGuy
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 4:05:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kyarguy:
Woaa! That was strange... must of had something to do with the time change....

KyAKGuy
Nope, just the back of the bus for you

Easyer to read if I re-post:


Originally Posted By Kyarguy:

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
A well made .223 AK is almost as reliable as a 7.62x39 one.


Well made AK= VEPR, Saiga, Arsenal, etc...
I can accept that...

BUT...



Originally Posted By BulletBait:The .223s straighter case hurts a little, but it will still be far more reliable than a AR15.


I'm not buying it....
How does the straighter case hurt??



The straighter case "sticks" to the chamber wall more tightly after firing and is less forgiving to dirt and fouling.


...Far more reliable than a AR-15??
I wouldn't go as far as saying "far more reliable." There are very many reliable AR type
weapons out there in todays market. Many of them are very reliable. More than reliable
enough for the normal range use that their owners put them through.
Dont get me wrong, I love the AK design, but to say that a AK in .223 is vastly more reliable than a QUALITY AR in the same caliber is simply inaccurate.


The original poster was concerned about reliability, he didn't say how far he planned on pushing it.
Most AR magazines are made of glass ( the new $$$$ stainless ones are nice) compared to an AKs, and mags are where most problems start.
The newer ARs are good when clean or just powder fouled, but the AK will eat a lot more dirt before jamming, both in the rifle and in the mags, nobody argues this.
This IMO make it "far more reliable".



Besides, if you wanted the ultimate in reliability from a sub-30 cal weapon,
you would be buying a gun in 5.45x39 and never looking back...


Agreed.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 5:23:43 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 4:40:41 AM EST
Define reliability, please. Is it 1000 rounds without cleaning? 20000 rounds? I have owned both ARs and AKs and cannot think of one time I have had a malfunction of any kind. Granted, at any range session I have rarely fired over 500 rounds.

Recently I have had to choose between an AR and an AK (medical bills suck). I chose an AK.

Now I have an SLR106F. I haven't looked back yet. This past weekend, I ran 330 rounds through it. It was out on my property. Slow single fire, bumping, rapid fire strings using M855 and NOT ONE malfunction. All mags worked and BTW, the SS lined handguard does keep it cool. You can tell when you bump three mags in a row.

The straight case arguement is BS. Just ask a man who owns one.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 2:54:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By DeltaDelta214:
Define reliability, please. Is it 1000 rounds without cleaning? 20000 rounds? I have owned both ARs and AKs and cannot think of one time I have had a malfunction of any kind. Granted, at any range session I have rarely fired over 500 rounds.

Recently I have had to choose between an AR and an AK (medical bills suck). I chose an AK.

Now I have an SLR106F. I haven't looked back yet. This past weekend, I ran 330 rounds through it. It was out on my property. Slow single fire, bumping, rapid fire strings using M855 and NOT ONE malfunction. All mags worked and BTW, the SS lined handguard does keep it cool. You can tell when you bump three mags in a row.

The straight case arguement is BS. Just ask a man who owns one.

I'd rather talk to the designers.
It is a simple phyisical fact about the straighter case wall being more likely to jam.
Both in long arms and handguns.
Research it.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:32:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By BulletBait:

Originally Posted By DeltaDelta214:
Define reliability, please. Is it 1000 rounds without cleaning? 20000 rounds? I have owned both ARs and AKs and cannot think of one time I have had a malfunction of any kind. Granted, at any range session I have rarely fired over 500 rounds.

Recently I have had to choose between an AR and an AK (medical bills suck). I chose an AK.

Now I have an SLR106F. I haven't looked back yet. This past weekend, I ran 330 rounds through it. It was out on my property. Slow single fire, bumping, rapid fire strings using M855 and NOT ONE malfunction. All mags worked and BTW, the SS lined handguard does keep it cool. You can tell when you bump three mags in a row.

The straight case arguement is BS. Just ask a man who owns one.

I'd rather talk to the designers.
It is a simple phyisical fact about the straighter case wall being more likely to jam.
Both in long arms and handguns.
Research it.


A silly argument. It's a "physical fact" that a straight case is "more likely to jam"? Facts are facts. Postulation is just that. Demonstrate some facts that it actually jams instead of telling us what you think is likely. Are we likely to have rain tomorrow? I suggest you do the reaearch by interviewing the hundreds of thousands or millions of US and NATO troops that have used this round which is more "likely" to jam.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 6:27:53 PM EST
This is my last post about this DD.
There is a lot of info out there, I strongly suggest you read it BEFORE calling BS.
Let me summerize for you.

Every choice made when designing a mechanical object involves compromises.
A cartridge case is no different.

Directly relating to this post is the 6MM PPC and the 7.62x39.
Both of which come from the same parent case.
The .220 Russian.
Read the history of PPC cartridges and find out why those choices were made and what the trade offs were.

In all that reading you WILL find that the straighter the case wall, the more it becomes sensitive to fouling and sticking to chamber wall.
It is also often more ACCURATE (which is why American rifleman like them)and burns the powder more efficiently, but the shoulder angle also has a lot to do with that, as well as the bore to case diameter ratio.

Google it.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:53:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
This is my last post about this DD.
There is a lot of info out there, I strongly suggest you read it BEFORE calling BS.
Let me summerize for you.

Every choice made when designing a mechanical object involves compromises.
A cartridge case is no different.

Directly relating to this post is the 6MM PPC and the 7.62x39.
Both of which come from the same parent case.
The .220 Russian.
Read the history of PPC cartridges and find out why those choices were made and what the trade offs were.

In all that reading you WILL find that the straighter the case wall, the more it becomes sensitive to fouling and sticking to chamber wall.
It is also often more ACCURATE (which is why American rifleman like them)and burns the powder more efficiently, but the shoulder angle also has a lot to do with that, as well as the bore to case diameter ratio.

Google it.


No expert on this...But the way i see this making sense it that a straight case will be in contact with the walls of the bore from the time the round enters the chamber untill it is fully seated and from then untill it it fully removed....As powder foulds and dirt gets into the chamber...it makes it smaller therefore causing more friction, therefore causeing hardshipd while your trying to shoot it...where as a tapered case is free from the chamber the second the pressure it released.....As powder builds up it will just cause the rounds to seat a little farther back in the chamber.....Giving less accurace but more reliability...
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 8:10:51 PM EST
Bodydropper, that makes perfect sense. Thanks
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:47:59 AM EST
No problem man...Either way, your gonne be a winner with a VEPR....But if you decide to not get that .223 VEPR.....I have a 5.45, with a sidefolder, and vented foregrip, I would be willing to trade for the .223
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:06:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By DeltaDelta214:

Originally Posted By BulletBait:

Originally Posted By DeltaDelta214:
Define reliability, please. Is it 1000 rounds without cleaning? 20000 rounds? I have owned both ARs and AKs and cannot think of one time I have had a malfunction of any kind. Granted, at any range session I have rarely fired over 500 rounds.

Recently I have had to choose between an AR and an AK (medical bills suck). I chose an AK.

Now I have an SLR106F. I haven't looked back yet. This past weekend, I ran 330 rounds through it. It was out on my property. Slow single fire, bumping, rapid fire strings using M855 and NOT ONE malfunction. All mags worked and BTW, the SS lined handguard does keep it cool. You can tell when you bump three mags in a row.

The straight case arguement is BS. Just ask a man who owns one.

I'd rather talk to the designers.
It is a simple phyisical fact about the straighter case wall being more likely to jam.
Both in long arms and handguns.
Research it.


A silly argument. It's a "physical fact" that a straight case is "more likely to jam"? Facts are facts. Postulation is just that. Demonstrate some facts that it actually jams instead of telling us what you think is likely. Are we likely to have rain tomorrow? I suggest you do the reaearch by interviewing the hundreds of thousands or millions of US and NATO troops that have used this round which is more "likely" to jam.


Yes it is true. It basic common knowledge among most hardcore bench shooters who basically need to know every single little thing that causes inaccuracy. Large angle cartridges such as the 7.62x54r are easier to extract than the "pencil" like 30-06. BUT the straighter wall cartridges are inherently more accurate. Like bullet bait mentioned before its has to do with Powder distribution inside the case as well as the bullet to case wall angle ratio. With boltaction rifles most shooters choose straight wall cartidges since the extraction problems are not the same as in a full auto military weapon. For them its accuracy over reliability.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:13:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By jmhat98:
Ok, I currently have a 762X39 vepr and am thinking about trading a buddy for a .223 vepr instead. What say ye? I have read in some places that an ak is not as dependable in .223 because of the design, is this true? I am trying to standardize on the .223 caliber with ar's, but do not want to compromise my reliability. Anyone in the know? Thanks


Depends on what you want the rifle for? a SHTF gun or a sweet shooter at the range?
I have AKs in both calibers and i have noticed no real "reliability" issues with the 5.56mm AK's. But that is just my experience. The AK in 5.56 WILL be more accurate for a host of reasons. so at the range it will be more fun to shoot and actually get where you want the bullet to go. Also the issue with ammo is important. while 7.62m is cheap and plentiful it is also hard to find quality stuff for cheap. Winchester amkes some 7.62 in brass. But with 5.56mm you can get a host of good or even "match" quality ammo. this will also make a world of difference in accuracy and groupings. In my AR shooting wolf ammo at 100 meters i can get 5" MOA if im lucky. but with lake city or other good ammo my grouping drop to 3" or on a good day 1"
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:23:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2006 9:25:38 AM EST by DeltaDelta214]
This thread has degenerated to the nit picking level. If you want a high velocity, flat shooting, accurate longer range cartridge go with the 5.56 mm. If you want 30-30 ballistics go with the 7.62. Both are proven on the battlefield.

If the 5.56 mm was such a bloody problem, why would our military and NATO use it? Something tells me thay could care less what some self professed internet expert has to say.

Yes, I know they are considering an improved round. That's their job: to always look for improvements. Also, the improved rounds they are reviewing all have straight cases. Google it. Semper Fi.
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