SCRAMBLD(who also posts here) and I are shooting buddies and we've spent some time WECSOG-ing some solutions to the amazingly highly-priced Valmet .223 mags.

Factory mags are somewhat scarce, and when they can be found, often the cost is over $100 for 30 rd mags and $75+ for factory 15 rd. mags.  Makes it kind of tought to get a bunch of them, doesn't it?  I recently lucked into a 30 rd. factory Valmet mag at a pawn shop for $25 (mislabled as an SKS mag), but we can't count on that kind of good fortune, can we?

I bought my Valmet 76 folder in  March of 2004.  It cost me a paltry $1100 shipped and was NIB, unfired.  It came with 4 magazines, a factory 15 rd, a factory 30 round, and two AK-74 mags converted to fit the rifle.

What $1100 and good luck on Gunbroker can get you-


I knew the factory mags would fit and function, and the AK-74 mags fit, but who is satisfied with a mere 4 magazines?  An who knew if the converted mags would function?  Thus I began a quest for info regarding the use of cheaper magazines in the Valmet .223 rifles.

My first stop was a now defunct website devoted to Valmet rifles.  It was here that I met my first disappointment.  I knew of a source for Galil mags, both steel and Orlite for less than $40.  Unfortunately, I learned that Galil mags have a profile that does not allow safe and reliable function in a Valmet.  The feed angle is wrong, and when used in a Valmet, Galil mags allow the fed rounds to slam into the rear of the receiver, causing the projectile to be forced back into the throat of the case, a potentially dangerous situation.  So Galil mags quickly got scratched off the list of possibilities.

I also learned  from that site that Tony Rumor of TROMIX had at one time made quite a business of converting both Steel East German Weigar mags and Bulgarian Waffle mags for use in Valmet rifles.  The site said Tony was getting out of doing this, no longer offering the mags for sale, but might, if contacted, convert user supplied mags using his jig.  So that led me to realize that Bulgarian and E. German mags were possible sources.

Unfortunately, in 2004, Bulgarian mags had become difficult to find.  Arsenal did not have them listed for sale anymore, and they were selling for almost $40 each on the auction sites.  Gunshows locally were a bust, so I decided to concentrate on the Weigars.

I found a vendor who sold me the 5 he had at a show for $50.  As you know, the Weigar mags take some filing and/or dremeling to fit.  Without a jig, it's a trial and error kind of proceedure.  Go slow, use a working mag as your guide, and be prepared to spend some time getting them to fit and even more time getting them to feed.  Using just a file, each mag would take 30-45 minutes...this is slow going, but I recommend hand filing the first one to learn where to remove material and where not to.  Subsequent mags were done by dremel and took maybe 15 or 20 minutes to fit.

Here's a Valmet factory 30 rd. mag-


And a Weigar  (modified) for comparison-


Here's the factory Valmet latch-


And the modified Weigar-


Valmet 30 rd. in the gun-


And the Weigar in the gun-


Positives-
-Inexpensive
-Looks almost factory in appearance
-Steel construction

Negatives-
-A lot of material needs to be removed from the mag to get proper fit/function

Next up is the Bulgarian waffle mag in .223.  
These can be tough to find but if you do come across them, pick them up because they are fairly easy to modify.  The Bulgarians are a polymer over steel construction, and a bit of judicious file and dremel work on the uppser sides of the mag may be needed in addition to the latch work in order to get them to fit.  When they are fitted, they lock up marvelously; good and tight.  Typical dremel time on these was 10 maybe 15 minutes.

Here's a Bulgarian Waffle mag (modified)


Here's the modified rear latch-


And here's the Bulgarian in the gun-


Positives-
-Tight lock up
-Simple modification
-I like the look

Negatives-
-Can be difficult to find Bulgarian waffles at times
-Depending on availability, donor mags will cost $30-$50
-Doesn't look "stock"

As stated earlier, my rifle was shipped with 2 Bakelite AK-74 mags modded to fir the M76.  I had never encountered this before, and when posting pix of my rifle on the 'net, I got a lot of questions about this.  Here's what I know-
They are stock brown plastic Bakelite AK-74 mags.  They have been filed at the feed lips and the latch.  I don't know if the follower has been changed, but they do feed and function, one more reliably than the other.  The "modder" has painted them black and they look okay, but as my other mags make me feel more "comfortable", these don't see much use.  
Now I've been told that this conversion won't work, but these do, so go figure.  I've also been told that to get them to work, one must replace the follower from the 5.45 mag with a .223 follower.  I dunno.  These work, one effectively, one with 2 stoppages in 5-6 trips to the range.

Anyway, for those interested-
AK-74 mag converted for M76 use-


AK74 mag latch (modified)-


AK74 mag in the M76-


Positives-
-Inexpensive mags
-Bakelite is easy to file

Negatives-
-Don't leave me with a comfortable feeling
-Filing bakelite feedlips  could be problematic
-possible follower issues
-I didn't do this conversion, so I'm not totally confident in it.

Well, with those options, and a few factory mags you'd think I'd be content, huh?  Not nearly.

Scanning eBay one day after getting my rifle (back when Valmet parts could still be found on eBay...before the "Assault weapons auction ban"), I came across an auction for a Galil M-16 mag adapter.  I'd seen these before, and basically, it's a part that fits in the mag well of a Galil and allows use of the ubiquitous and chap AR mags in the high dollar rifle.  It got me thinking.  I looked at one of my AR mags, and one of my Valmet mags.  They looked like they had similar bolt clearance, and that *possibly*  the adapter might work.

The auction was ending in 5 minutes and I picked the adapter up for $20.  At the time, there were lots of 20 of these being offered "in the white", so I had the idea, I'd make this work, buy 100 or so, mill them to work in the Valmet and make some cash.  Heh.

First problem is the adapter I got didn't want to fit my rifle, or my buddy SCRAMBLD's rifle.  So some dremeling would be required.  SCRAMBLD cranked up his grinder and went to work.  Lon story short, after a couple of hours, and grinding it down to a point where we worried about its structural integrity, we got the adapter to fit.  Hm.  If we were gonna sell these, we'd charge a fortune for them; there was what much work involved.

We got the adapter to fit, the M16 mag was inserted, and it seemed to hand cycle okay.

Off to the range.  Got through three mags with no issues, and on mag 4, round 18, I got the dreaded Galil mag problem...slammed the projectile into the casemouth.  Firing stopped, we considered a bit more filing, tried another mag, and the same issue.  Hrm.  A lot of work was put into this, but also, a lot of metal was removed.  It's possible I *can* get this to work, but is it worth all the effort?  Well, to be honest, I haven't worked on it in months, and I might not again.  Neat idea, but...

Galil AR mag adapter-


Adatper rear (note how much metal needed to be removed)


Adapter with 40 rd AR15/AR180 mag in rifle  (too bad this didn't work better...looks wicked)


So after the long and winding road, what did I learn about Valmet .223 mags?
1.  Factory mags are almost prohibitively expensive
2.  Factory mags are scarce
3.  Weigar and Bulgarian mags are relatively easy to modify for use in a Valmet
4.  Bulgarian mags are more easily modified than Weigars
5.  Galil mag adapters *might* work, but what's the point...Weigar and Bulgarians are so easy to fix.

Okay, this has been long-winded, but I figured you guys might learn from my journey to find mags.

Here's the 5 mags I discussed-


Left to right-Bulgarian Waffle 30 rd, Valmet Factory 30 rd,  Weigar 30 rd., AK74 modified 30rd., Galil adapter on a Sterling 40 rd.

Anyway, hope that helps.

I'd like to thank my Dremel buddy SCRAMBLD for helping me file, dremel, and test all these mags.

If you've got any questions, I'd be happy to answer them if I can.

Have you considered trying Polish 5.56 mags? They might be a little expensive though.

Robinson Arms sells mags for the VEPR .223 that are AK74 mags with a new follower and the feed lips opened up slightly, might be worth a try. You might even be able to buy the followers individually.

Nice work!  Here are some of my experiences with aftermarket mags:

Weigar - I tried the Weigar mag a while back, but I was not happy with the way rounds fed into chamber.  To check for proper feeding, I loaded up a mag full of dummy 223 (bullets/cases but no primer/powder), manually racking the rounds with the top cover off and observed feed angle.  The Weiger fed a little low compare to the Valmet.

Bulgarian - Same problem as above, but even worse than the Weigar's feed angle.  I abandoned this project altogether.  Note - I experimented with 10 rds Bulgie 223 mag since the 30 rds were hard to get back then.  May be the 30 rds feeds differently, but I didn't want to spend $50 or more just to find out.

Bulgarian 5.45x39 - Got one to work!  Fitted a AR15 green follower (lots of dremel work) into the mag body, using the AR15 mag spring The thing worked like a charm!  32 rounds total capacity and fed directly into the chamber.  

Bravo5two,

I decided to take a look at the Weigar and bulgy mags that I have, trying your Idea of feeding rounds with the top cover off. I saw the problem you described with the weigar mag and while comparing the weigar to my Valmet 30 rd mag I spotted the problem with the weigar mag.

at the very front of the mag, just above the catch the weigar mag is notched out so that the top of the follower is roughly a 3/16th" higher than the leading edge of the mag. On the Valmet mag the follower is barely a 1/16th" taller the leading edge of the mag.

If you'll put one round in the mag and slowly push it out of the mag, you'll see the shoulder of the cartridge will hit this lip on the Valmet mag and jump up allowing the cartridge to enter the chamber uninterupted.

where as the Weigar mag not having this lip the bullet point will just barely enters the chamber 99% of the time and the Chamber acts as the lip on the mag popping the round up and into the chamber fully. that 1% that the bullet point misses the chamber opening and it shoves the bullet back into the case neck is a serious problem, especially in $1500+ rifles.

now, I propose that if I were to add a piece of metal to the leading edge of the Mag body on the Weigars that it will act the same as the Valmet mag. I'm going to try this tommorow afternoon. hopefully It'll work like I think it will.

now on the Bulgy waffle mags, they are made the same way as the Weigars with the low front lip. however I can't weld on them as they are mostly plastic with a few steel inserts made into them. The only thing I can think of for them would be to make a steel strip the full legnth of the mag and rivet it to the inside of the mag and modify the follower accordingly, BUT............

every one of the Bulgy mags I have release the cartridge early enough that the bullet tip enters the chamber very close to the centerline.

Pitbull,
I like your post and as long as we've been using these mags I had never noticed the problems that Bravo5two had mentioned. assuming the the Mod I suggested to the Weigars works like I think it will, I'll fix your Weigars as soon as you can get them to me.

Jason

where as the Weigar mag not having this lip the bullet point will just barely enters the chamber 99% of the time and the Chamber acts as the lip on the mag popping the round up and into the chamber fully. that 1% that the bullet point misses the chamber opening and it shoves the bullet back into the case neck is a serious problem, especially in $1500+ rifles

.


Exactly as you'd described!  I did noticed at manual racking speed, the bullet hitting chamber wall rate increased to more like 20%.  Out of a full 30 rounds mag, I had 5 or 6 with bullet shoved all the way into the case neck.  I don't know if the loading speed from firing changes thing or not, but I was not about to find out in live fire

now on the Bulgy waffle mags, they are made the same way as the Weigars with the low front lip. however I can't weld on them as they are mostly plastic with a few steel inserts made into them. The only thing I can think of for them would be to make a steel strip the full legnth of the mag and rivet it to the inside of the mag and modify the follower accordingly, BUT............ every one of the Bulgy mags I have release the cartridge early enough that the bullet tip enters the chamber very close to the centerline.

Hmmm...interesting.  Since I only tried the 10 rounder back then, your observation is making me think that may be the 30 rounds Bulgie would feed a bit higher.  I might have to order one from KVar to try.  Thanks!!!

btt

sorry thats its been so long since I posted a reveiw of my Modifications to the Weigar front feed lip.

I went to my work shop and rummaged around in the scrap metal pile to find a suitable piece of metal to build the front lip of the mag up to the same level of the Factory Valmet Mag. After a little light tack work to get it in place. I then tried to insert the mag, No go.


after a little inspection work I relised that the piece of metal I put in the mag was too thick and was preventing the fron't mag catch to slip into its notch in the trunnion and there by forced the mag rearward and would'nt allow it to latch in. I went to the Grinder and thinned that piece out enough to allow it to latch in.

I then went and hand cycled a full 30rd mag, it worked perfectly. every round entered the chamber with the bullet tip going right into the chamber at the bore centerline.

Now for a little live fire range test. I loaded up the mag and stepped out into the front yard and capped off all 30 rds as fast as I could pull the trigger and get back on target. it worked flawlessly so I loaded up another 30 and tried it again and again and again and again. I had Zero FTL or FTE's . Previously I would occasionally get maybe one FTL in 120rds though the one Weigar mag that I have, after that test session  I believe that I won't have that problem any morehope
Jason

Very usefull information! Hopefully, I will be the owner of a M76 with plastic furniture very soon. I know the plastic B/S is not the greatest, but the price seems good and I have been jonesin for a Valmet for over 20 years. Anyhoo, the rifle I am looking at comes with a moded HK53 40rnd mag- anyone ever run into one of these? Do they work?
Thanks,
Dean

Quoted: sorry thats its been so long since I posted a reveiw of my Modifications to the Weigar front feed lip. I went to my work shop and rummaged around in the scrap metal pile to find a suitable piece of metal to build the front lip of the mag up to the same level of the Factory Valmet Mag. After a little light tack work to get it in place. I then tried to insert the mag, No go. after a little inspection work I relised that the piece of metal I put in the mag was too thick and was preventing the fron't mag catch to slip into its notch in the trunnion and there by forced the mag rearward and would'nt allow it to latch in. I went to the Grinder and thinned that piece out enough to allow it to latch in. I then went and hand cycled a full 30rd mag, it worked perfectly. every round entered the chamber with the bullet tip going right into the chamber at the bore centerline. Now for a little live fire range test. I loaded up the mag and stepped out into the front yard and capped off all 30 rds as fast as I could pull the trigger and get back on target. it worked flawlessly so I loaded up another 30 and tried it again and again and again and again. I had Zero FTL or FTE's . Previously I would occasionally get maybe one FTL in 120rds though the one Weigar mag that I have, after that test session  I believe that I won't have that problem any more I hope that helps you guys out, if you need pics or better details lemme know. Jason

Your post makes me wonder about taking another look at Galil mags, since the major complaint with them is the "lower feeding problem."

Anyone got a Galil mag to check it out?



Lonny

No Galil mags but i just bought a Polish AK74 tantal mag and it will almost lock in with no work.  feed angle is gonna be wrong though.

As soon as I get a chance I'll fit it to my 76 and see what happens, BTW I picked this mag up for $10 at the last Charlotte gun show.

Jason

Edit:

I tried to make the Polish tantal mag fit the Valmet today. You will have to cut the front tab to allow it to fit into the Front trunnion. then you have to remove a little metal just above the rear mag tab and shorten it slightly. Once I got the mag in, i noticed that the bolt was hitting the rear of the feed lips. beveled the ends of the feed lips and the bolt passed through them cleanly.

so loaded a few rounds in the mag and hand cycled the action, bolt passes over the rim and catchs on the cartridge body. Removed a little material from the top of the rear tab so the mag could be seated higher. this helped but now the bullet is hitting the barrel shoulder.  I'd have to add some material to the underside of the tab if it would have workedto hold the mag in this new higher rear position.

I quit, The Tantal mag is more work than the $5 dollar differance in price vs. a weigar .223 mag

Jason

btt

Tag for my M76

Temp thread Hi-jack!  Any info on where to get night sites recharged/replaced?   End of Hi-jack!

B.Wood who hangs out on Falfiles now, used to run Valmet-Weapons.org, and at one time did group buys for replacing the tritium nightsights on Valmets.

He's shut that site down, but he may still have a source for the sights,

Sto by Falfiles and ask him hug.gif

Quoted: B.Wood who hangs out on Falfiles now, used to run Valmet-Weapons.org, and at one time did group buys for replacing the tritium nightsights on Valmets. He's shut that site down, but he may still have a source for the sights, Sto by Falfiles and ask him

Thanks for the lead!

No problem

Has anyone tried using chinese .223 ak mags for this conversion? would it be the same work involved as with the 5.45 mags?

By the way,found the german steel .223 mag at  david's collectables. Just type that in the search and it comes up, don't know the web addy. $21 each.

I havn't found any chinese mags. If I could find one cheap I'd be willing to try it.  As it stands I thing the German Weigars are the best option for use with a Valmet short of the original Valmet mags.

Jason

well I have 3 gallons of new 20 and 30 round .223 chinese ak mags and a valmet 76. I guess I will give them a try, what is the first step?

I understand the problesm most have had with Galil Mags.  I've had a '76W since the 80's and the Galil mags are the only mags I've ever used and that's a few thousand rounds by now.  Maybe I've been lucky :)

clutchsmoke
I just bought 4 brand new in the wrap Weigers from Aim Surplus for $14.95 each- in case you are looking for more.


www.aimsurplus.com

Thanks for the heads up on the mags..

Urban_ops,
First thing, remove the topcover and bolt, carrier and spring.

Attempt to insert the mag, does it fit? (prolly not)

ok, figure out why its not fitting. look at the front catch. does it look the same as a Valmet mag? if not whats different and can it be made to look similar?

ok, assuming that the front latch looks right, will the mag go in? whats stopping it? is the rear catch to long? is there any other part of the mag in the way? is there a strap just above the catch like the weigar mag pictured ablove? if so its most likely hitting the mag well and stopping the mag from  going in. remove that strap of metal.

will the mag lock in now? no what stopping it. you may have to thin the rear catch a little to get it to lock in.

make sure the bolt will clear the feed lips. if not you'll have to opne them up a bit.

HTH,
Jason

BTW, would you be interested in selling a 20 rd and 30 rd chinese mag.

J

Thanks SCRAMBLD,
I am going to try fitting one this week and if it tests out ok I will make a fixture for my mill and do the whole batch.
As far as selling any of the Chinese mags, I would rather buy some more mags rather than sell any that I have.
Thanks for all the info.

Josh

urban ops, any like with the chiacom mags?

great post, read thru 3 times.   just bought .223 valmet today, appreciate info

got five mags w/ (orlite galil) reported to work by orig. owner, will test sat      edited to add: turns out, also got fac. 30 rnd

edited w/range report....    the five galil worked equally w/fact. mag.....   that is to say... occasional probs.   turns out rifle had two owners before me..... appears in near brand new cond.     had FTEs and next round smashed into rear of barrel....   I would remove mag.   shake out smashed round,  let bolt go forward,  empty shell extracted then no probs.

was firing AE, 193, and ADCOM

turns out someone put JB weld or something, in an attemp to make a feed ramp????    then worked the bolt carrier to get the bolt to "lap" into the JB.....   removed it tonight....   will test again after IPSC match Sun.

but rifle looks almost brand new..... like it never got hot.... finish still perfect around ejection area, etc.   price was right, I'll get her to work perfect

and a very accurate RK

I have also just procured a Valmet, a 71S.  I have been following this tread and would like to thank ThePitbulloflove for the great pictorial on the mags he has tried.  I have ordered 2 other styles of mags to help and see if perhaps they would fit without much modification.  I will post when I receive them and after fitments modification.  I am waiting on Norinco .223 and a Yugo .223 mag.  I read here that Urbanops was going to modify the Chicoms, but has not reported back yet.  I'll let you all know how it comes out.

Sorry about the delay, I machined a couple of chinese .223 mags with great succes. I will try to get some pics of the machining once I get my camera back. Basically just a little off the rear catch to clear the mag latch and relief on the left lip to clear the ejector.
I screwed up my first mag by removing to much from the front catch and caused the rounds to feed a little low. I just need to Tig weld it back to shape and machine it the same as the rest.

Received my Yugo mags today, here is the report.  [ pics later ]  After cleaning off the usual Yugo cosmoline, they looked correct enough to be a direct fit.  Nope.  The front of the mag above the lip needed to be thinner.  No problem as that  area on the Yugo had 2 layers of metal, just trimmed off the first layer.  The rear needed to be trimmed as do all the other mags.  It was close enough though that it maybe took 5 min.  Keep the rifle close to keep fitting to keep from removing too much material.  I'll be able to do my other 3 in about 10 min each.  The yugo mags appear to have the same feed angle as the Valmet after the modification.  No other work was need to make them work, just front and rear.  Now for the range report.  No failures at all.  I ran 1 mag fully loaded 2 times.  Tested fast, slow, but no bump firing.  There were no problems at all.   I got these from Ohio Rapid Fire who have the Yugo .223 kits.

Here are the Yugo mag comparason pics.  
First is a top photo, you may see how closely they match. Yugo is on the left.

Next is a comparason of a Valmet front, Yugo unmodified, and Yugo modified.

Last is a the yugo modified next to the Valmet.