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Posted: 8/20/2005 1:20:47 AM EDT
It seems like the .223 AK's are pretty popular around here. Is it just because they are fun to shoot and ammo is easier to find than 5.45? I have an unconverted Saiga in .223 and have been wanting a short AK, so I started thinking about doing a 102, but I am reluctant because I'm worried about .223 not performing spectacularly out of such a short barrel.

Isn't 7.63x39 a better choice for shorter barrels? It's not dependent on high velocities to fragment like .223. Are there any advantages to using .223 in a shorter weapon except for the low recoil? Should I get another 7.62 AK and do a 104 instead? Make the .223 a 101?
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 2:16:24 AM EDT
Ammo is cheap and EASY to find. I think thats the biggest advantage.

I know I dont plan on shooting anyone with an AK anyway, so all that fragmenting garbage means nothing.

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:26:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 3:31:14 AM EDT by Kyarguy]

Originally Posted By ReverendBuck:
but I am reluctant because I'm worried about .223 not performing spectacularly out of such a short barrel.



Perform spectaculararly on what?? Paper targets?? What are you planning on shooting with it?

My converted Saiga is a blast to shoot. Easy to handle, and accurate too. Im not worried about bullet performance out of it. I've got 30 rounds! If it's not dead after the first shot, I'll shoot it again until it is.
Most paper plates and cardboard targets only require single shot kills anyway.

KyARGuy
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 4:54:58 AM EDT
Ammo availability and makes a good companion to the AR.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 5:06:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 5:43:21 AM EDT by Jicky]
Variety of flavors,collect em all....

ETA:As long as I can get a AR15 I see no real need for a 223 AK..Other than variety...
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 6:03:05 AM EDT
To convert the Saiga .223 to accept all the 'real AK' stuff requires 'mucho trabajo'. The barrel OD's are ALL off. You will have to lathe the barrel down to the correct dimensions to accept the HGR and GB, and if you coose the full length barrel the FSb as well.
The Saiga 7.62 is a much easier conversion, amazingly the barrel OD's are all good on the larger bore??

my 101 and 103
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 6:39:21 AM EDT
In my opinion/experience, .223 AK's are popular with people that already own AR's.

Either because they use the same ammo, or the like the idea of a single caliber, or they buy into all the hype about the supposed "superiority" of the .223/5.56x45 round, or finally, someone thinks that a .223 AK is some kind of "ultra-elite accuracy platform" simply because of the round.

Me, I think .223 AK's are kinda lame - I believe they were originally chambered in .223 for the US civilian market, so there's not really a lot of comblock authenticity with them.

Flame me all you want, .223 AK owners - it's a commie rifle, buy a commie caliber!
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 6:54:37 AM EDT
Because it's different would be my guess............I have one of each, and kind of like the idea of having the .223 AK along with a 74 and 47. Since the Russians are producing AK-101 and AK-102 rifles for export, having a clone of one of those fits a gap in my collection
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 6:58:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kythri:
In my opinion/experience, .223 AK's are popular with people that already own AR's.

Either because they use the same ammo, or the like the idea of a single caliber, or they buy into all the hype about the supposed "superiority" of the .223/5.56x45 round, or finally, someone thinks that a .223 AK is some kind of "ultra-elite accuracy platform" simply because of the round.

Me, I think .223 AK's are kinda lame - I believe they were originally chambered in .223 for the US civilian market, so there's not really a lot of comblock authenticity with them.

Flame me all you want, .223 AK owners - it's a commie rifle, buy a commie caliber!



I agree completely... It is a lot like buying an AR-15 in 7.62x39 - it just ain't right... I also think that since it isn't a comblock original there is no standardization across the different countries. I know there isn't a lot of standardization across the 7.62 or 5.45 world, but it is better than the 5.56 versions.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:41:02 AM EDT
I'll take accuracy over authenticity any day. My SA M-5S is the most accurate AK I've ever shot, including the Galils I've had ...
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:48:07 AM EDT
I see a few anti-defense posts in this thread.

I don't "plan" on shooting anyone with any of my guns, but I am certainly prepared to. I have no use for a gun that I can't defend myself with.

By law, your .223 AK will have to have a 16" barrel (unless you go SBR). .223/5.56 is fine out of a 16" barrel out to at least 125 yards. That'll do just fine for burglars, Al Queda's or whatever.

Now, all that said I STILL prefer 7.62x39 for an AK.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:52:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kythri:
Me, I think .223 AK's are kinda lame - I believe they were originally chambered in .223 for the US civilian market, so there's not really a lot of comblock authenticity with them.



I thought that the reason they started making .223 AK's were because countries who use AK's (Poland, Bulgaria, Hungry, etc.) joined NATO and they wanted to be able to use the NATO round.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:25:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I see a few anti-defense posts in this thread.

I don't "plan" on shooting anyone with any of my guns, but I am certainly prepared to. I have no use for a gun that I can't defend myself with.

By law, your .223 AK will have to have a 16" barrel (unless you go SBR). .223/5.56 is fine out of a 16" barrel out to at least 125 yards. That'll do just fine for burglars, Al Queda's or whatever.

Now, all that said I STILL prefer 7.62x39 for an AK.



+ 1
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:15:34 AM EDT
Too bad we can't get any of the Czech CZ-2000 rifles inported............those would be very nice


Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By kythri:
Me, I think .223 AK's are kinda lame - I believe they were originally chambered in .223 for the US civilian market, so there's not really a lot of comblock authenticity with them.



I thought that the reason they started making .223 AK's were because countries who use AK's (Poland, Bulgaria, Hungry, etc.) joined NATO and they wanted to be able to use the NATO round.

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:51:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Apache659:
I'll take accuracy over authenticity any day. My SA M-5S is the most accurate AK I've ever shot, including the Galils I've had ...



But see, you're still choosing an AK - you're not choosing accuracy.

It may be accurate for an AK, but it's still not THAT accurate.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 10:52:02 AM EDT
Dont get me wrong I love me some AK's, but if yer trying to squeeze out accuracy in 223 AR is better...
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 11:44:48 AM EDT
Off the top of my head:

you can reload .223
many more quality ammo options with .223
many more effective defensive ammo options (esp. w/ 1:7 barrel)
better overall availability of ammo in the U.S.
enthusiasts want to add a 101/102 to their collection

A Kalashnikov system is a viable tool for self-defense. The 7.62x39 and 5.45mm rounds are conventional (despite the "poison bullet hoopla of the 5.45mm) and generally don't fragment, i.e. they act as FMJ rounds. The primary kill mechanism of the M193 and M855 ammo is fragmentation when the velocity at impact is greater than 2700 fps. Rifles with 1:7 barrels may also employ heavier loads like Black Hill's "Mk262 Mod1" loads (77gr Nosler or Sierra) allowing reliable fragmentation at extended ranges out of shorter barrels.

An AK102 carbine with a 12.5" 1:7 barrel using 77gr. Mk262 gives tremendous flexibility and lethality in an extremely small, utterly reliable package.

Of course if you just want to shoot paper, then all of the above is academic.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 11:53:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kythri:

Originally Posted By Apache659:
I'll take accuracy over authenticity any day. My SA M-5S is the most accurate AK I've ever shot, including the Galils I've had ...



But see, you're still choosing an AK - you're not choosing accuracy.

It may be accurate for an AK, but it's still not THAT accurate.



I'll alway's choose an AK over anything else but now we have an "accurate" AK to choose. I shot this group last Sunday from the bench with the SA M-5S using 62gr. SS109 ammo with open sights. It measures just under 1 5/8in., these are rounds 71-80. If I ever need better than this I'll use my .300 Win Mag ...
I was a benchrest shooter almost exclusively for nearly 8 years so my results may differ from yours ...

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 2:16:12 PM EDT
No doubt a $600 to $700 dollar AK with $20 dollar 223 mag's and $220 dollar per thousand round ammo can shoot very accurate..
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 2:34:52 PM EDT
So that you can use the .223/5.56 in a reliable platform
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 2:44:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:

An AK102 carbine with a 12.5" 1:7 barrel using 77gr. Mk262 gives tremendous flexibility and lethality in an extremely small, utterly reliable package.



Where do you find a 1:7 .223 barrel for an AK? I just kind of assumed I was stuck with the 1:9.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 2:49:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I see a few anti-defense posts in this thread.

I don't "plan" on shooting anyone with any of my guns, but I am certainly prepared to. I have no use for a gun that I can't defend myself with.



Exactly.



By law, your .223 AK will have to have a 16" barrel (unless you go SBR). .223/5.56 is fine out of a 16" barrel out to at least 125 yards. That'll do just fine for burglars, Al Queda's or whatever.

Now, all that said I STILL prefer 7.62x39 for an AK.



I will probably do 12" barrel with a 4" Krink type brake permanently attached to hit 16".
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:12:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:28:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Templar:

Bulgarian barrels are 1/7".



Hence the reason I used the 62gr. SS109 made for the 1/7 ...

Oh yeah Templar, you were dead on when you said the SA M-5's are sweet rifles ...
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:32:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:32:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Apache659:

Originally Posted By Templar:

Bulgarian barrels are 1/7".



Hence the reason I used the 62gr. SS109 made for the 1/7 ...

Oh yeah Templar, you were dead on when you said the SA M-5's are sweet rifles ...



In my experience 1/9 will stabilize SS109, but 1/12 will not
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:51:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Barrelburner:

In my experience 1/9 will stabilize SS109, but 1/12 will not



Correct. 1/9 will stabilize all but the heaviest loads (85 or 100 gr.)
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:53:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kevin_M4:
To convert the Saiga .223 to accept all the 'real AK' stuff requires 'mucho trabajo'. The barrel OD's are ALL off. You will have to lathe the barrel down to the correct dimensions to accept the HGR and GB, and if you coose the full length barrel the FSb as well.
The Saiga 7.62 is a much easier conversion, amazingly the barrel OD's are all good on the larger bore??

my 101 and 103


Very impressive and nice conversions on both. First 223 Saiga turned to AK-101 I've seen.
All the rest I've seen just have the pistol grip and standard buttstock added.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:32:36 PM EDT

I have them in .223 Air Force, 5.45 Sputnik, 7.62 Siberia, and 7.62 Garand. If they make one in 6.8 Jihad I'll get that too.

The .223 AKs are in use with a number of nations, starting back in the early seventies with Israel. And what do you think the South Africans made all that .223 ammo for? Some of you guys are so focused on pre-1950 designs you forget all the AK developments since 1970. We've been to the moon guys, it's okay to get an AK in .223
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:52:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:04:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Either because they use the same ammo, or the like the idea of a single caliber, or they buy into all the hype about the supposed "superiority" of the .223/5.56x45 round, or finally, someone thinks that a .223 AK is some kind of "ultra-elite accuracy platform" simply because of the round.


My SAR-3 will shoot MK262, Mod 1 which blows Wolf hollwopoint out of the proverbial water. But you keep buying into the hype about 7.62x39 effectiveness when it is the least effective centerfire round in current widespread service. People love to dwell on a few problems with M-855 in Blackhawk Down but ignore the legion of Rangers shot with 7.62x39 and kept on fighting until rescued hours later.


The Russians admitted that 7.62x39mm was stopped by the use of body armor. Which the Rangers were probably wearing. This came to light during their time in Afghanistan. They also stated that 5.45mm was better at penerating body armor. This is what made the 5.45mm Krinkov a popular idea because it would useful in that situation as compared to designing a new SMG using the 9x18 Makarov, which would be useless against body armor.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:55:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Barrelburner:
So that you can use the .223/5.56 in a reliable platform



Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:16:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
Some of you guys are so focused on pre-1950 designs you forget all the AK developments since 1970. We've been to the moon guys, it's okay to get an AK in .223



Since 1970?

Ah yes.

Let's see, that would be the AK-74 in 5.45x39 (And the AK-74M revision...)
The AKS-74U in 5.45x39
The AK-103 (7.62), AK-104 (7.62), AK-105 (5.45) (Being as the AK-101 and AK-102 were produced for export, not internal use...)

Even the AN-94 in 5.45.

Heck, since we've been talking about greentimber's sexy Black Tantal handguards recently, let's reference a page on the Tantal (another rifle in 5.45x39, produced well after 1970):

hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Tantal.htm:


Since Poland is to became a NATO member, a 5.56 mm NATO version was developed (wz.90), but was not accepted by the Polish military.


You can keep your cute little 5.56x45/.223 round. It seems that quite a few of the former Eastern Bloc countries don't want it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:29:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Either because they use the same ammo, or the like the idea of a single caliber, or they buy into all the hype about the supposed "superiority" of the .223/5.56x45 round, or finally, someone thinks that a .223 AK is some kind of "ultra-elite accuracy platform" simply because of the round.


My SAR-3 will shoot MK262, Mod 1 which blows Wolf hollwopoint out of the proverbial water. But you keep buying into the hype about 7.62x39 effectiveness when it is the least effective centerfire round in current widespread service. People love to dwell on a few problems with M-855 in Blackhawk Down but ignore the legion of Rangers shot with 7.62x39 and kept on fighting until rescued hours later.



I never said 7.62x39 was superior to 5.56x45 - you're assuming that my distaste for 5.56x45 AK's means I prefer the 7.62x39 round.

Not that I dislike it, but please. I never once tried to tout the 7.62x39 cartridge as any kind of miracle cartridge. I simply said/implied that 5.56x45 AK's are gimmicky rifles mainly produced for commercial (i.e. non-military) use/sales because there's a whole bunch of armchair commandos people out there that shake their little fists every time someone denigrates their favorite caliber - one that they believe is superior to any other caliber in existence.

For the record, I also really have no issue with the 5.56x45 cartridge. I have a couple of AR's, I want more. I shoot Federal XM193 and Federal XM855 almost exclusively through them. It's a nice round.

Also, for what it's worth, 7.62x39 doesn't belong in an AR...so...whatever.

I find it amusing that you've compared match-grade ammunition (The Mk262 Mod 1 stuff) to mass-produced cheap ammo (The Wolf). Of course it's going to perform better. That's what happens when you spend around a buck a round, compared to Wolf's 12.5-cents per round.

Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:54:47 AM EDT

I simply said/implied that 5.56x45 AK's are gimmicky rifles mainly produced for commercial (i.e. non-military)


Since joining NATO, the Bulgarian military is in the process of phasing out production of 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 in favor of the 5.56x45, so that statement isn't exactly true, LOL ...
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:55:14 AM EDT

The ultimate AK is the .223 Galil and South African R5.

Link Posted: 9/4/2005 7:06:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 7:10:19 AM EDT by smoken44]



My SAR-3 will shoot MK262, Mod 1 which blows Wolf hollwopoint out of the proverbial water. But you keep buying into the hype about 7.62x39 effectiveness when it is the least effective centerfire round in current widespread service. People love to dwell on a few problems with M-855 in Blackhawk Down but ignore the legion of Rangers shot with 7.62x39 and kept on fighting until rescued hours later.



If you want to compare apples to apples (MK262) VS 7.62x39 load up a few of these. Care to place any bets?? Hornady A-MAX 155gr



Link Posted: 9/4/2005 7:19:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Apache659:

I simply said/implied that 5.56x45 AK's are gimmicky rifles mainly produced for commercial (i.e. non-military)


Since joining NATO, the Bulgarian military is in the process of phasing out production of 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 in favor of the 5.56x45, so that statement isn't exactly true, LOL ...



I didn't say ALL...

I said "mainly" and "quite a few".
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 7:33:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 7:34:32 AM EDT by Apache659]
The Hornady A-MAX 155gr is a .308 diameter bullet, Russian 7.62's are .311 diameter, bust out the calipers and check. So you can't really compare apples to apples in that regard other than to say that one apple is bigger than another apple, LOL ...

EDIT: I'm sorry kythri, I was just screwin' with ya ...
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 7:35:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 8:20:43 AM EDT
"that three Special forces Designated Marksmen used to kill nearly 170 Iraqis in a one engagement where they defeated a company sized element with three highly accurized M-16's. Enough proof in that pudding for me."

WOW, where did you hear about this? That is Medal of Honor type heroics there. Definatly proof that the .223 can be made pretty lethal.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 8:46:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 8:48:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 8:50:01 AM EDT by smoken44]



That isn't a military issue round or a close counterpart. If you want to compare that, then I will compare the Hornady TAP rouond that is a little less accurate, much cheaper and slightly more terminally effective than the M262 Mod 1 that three Special forces Designated Marksmen used to kill nearly 170 Iraqis in a one engagement where they defeated a company sized element with three highly accurized M-16's. Enough proof in that pudding for me.


I was comparing bullets........each was designed to put bad guys down quickly. A 155 amax is more destructive than a 75-77gr tap.....period. They happen to shoot pretty good despite being undersize. 100 yds irons...


Link Posted: 9/4/2005 8:51:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 8:54:31 AM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 9:11:07 AM EDT
Okay.....this call for the box of truth. 16" barrels......50yds into water jugs or gel....whatever OP can do.....I'll supply 10 155 amax(just pull bullets from 154gr Wolf and reseat Amax).....you supply the MK262.....Okay??? (Rumble in the jungle 7.62X39 VS 5.56)

Will be out of town for a week...will get a hold of OP when I get back.

Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:37:22 PM EDT
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=386569

Accuracy of 5.56 Military Ammo.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:48:33 PM EDT

Since Poland is to became a NATO member, a 5.56 mm NATO version was developed (wz.90), but was not accepted by the Polish military.


Because they went with the 5.56 Beryl instead.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:21:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:54:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 3:57:35 PM EDT by mach6]
Why a 5.56mm AK? Well, in my case because I want a commonly available round for an utterly reliable weapon (i.e. my Arsenal M5S) that's also somewhat out of the ordinary. I suppose the latter point is what intrigues me most. That's what so special about AKs anyway: the opportunity to get as esoteric as you want. For example, I've got original Wieger StG 940 stock sets (ther real deal), together with Wieger FSHs and flash hiders....and bolts and bolt carriers. No, they weren't scrapped...not by a long shot. Consider it a bennie of being stationed in Berlin at the time of the collapse. Imagine how cool that weapon will be after someone like Newton or Butler get finished with it! That's the real appeal of 5.56mm AKs to me. The forgoing arguments on relative terminal ballistics iare indeed moot at this stage in my life.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 4:06:39 PM EDT
Where is the link to this? I think the Geneva convention prevent them from using anything other that FMJ rounds. I have heard that you can be tried for murder using a non-FMJ round.



Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By smoken44:



My SAR-3 will shoot MK262, Mod 1 which blows Wolf hollwopoint out of the proverbial water. But you keep buying into the hype about 7.62x39 effectiveness when it is the least effective centerfire round in current widespread service. People love to dwell on a few problems with M-855 in Blackhawk Down but ignore the legion of Rangers shot with 7.62x39 and kept on fighting until rescued hours later.



If you want to compare apples to apples (MK262) VS 7.62x39 load up a few of these. Care to place any bets?? Hornady
secure.centercube.com/ProductImages/middle/Product_75090.jpg




That isn't a military issue round or a close counterpart. If you want to compare that, then I will compare the Hornady TAP rouond that is a little less accurate, much cheaper and slightly more terminally effective than the M262 Mod 1 that three Special forces Designated Marksmen used to kill nearly 170 Iraqis in a one engagement where they defeated a company sized element with three highly accurized M-16's. Enough proof in that pudding for me.

Link Posted: 9/4/2005 4:23:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 4:24:31 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
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