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Posted: 8/20/2005 11:12:48 PM EDT
Whats the most effective 7.62x39mm amunition on the market for defense?....

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 11:15:59 PM EDT
[#1]
I dunno the best but wolf hits pretty hard.  Over penetration could be a problem considering an 8 inch tree won't stop it.  And they are boattail
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 11:37:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Things have REALLY gotten out of hand when you are using an AK for self defense.


I like soft points, I have a bunch of barnaul SP's that won't go through a RR tie because they mushroom..managed to recover one after firing like 15 rounds in the same area, I think I have about 30-40 grains out of the original 123 remaining.  Basically the heel of the bullet with some lead in it.

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 11:41:49 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
Whats the most effective 7.62x39mm amunition on the market for defense?....




The most effective round is the one that exits your rifle and hit's the target.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:54:18 AM EDT
[#4]
I am sure this stuff will work pretty good but I bet it gets expensive loading up a 30 round mag.

www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=X76239&cart=Ny42MngzOW1tIFJ1c3NpYW4=
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:55:39 AM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
I am sure this stuff will work pretty good but I bet it gets expensive loading up a 30 round mag.

www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=X76239&cart=Ny42MngzOW1tIFJ1c3NpYW4=



for better than 95 cents a round it better gang fuck whoever I shoot and make em submit.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 1:15:51 AM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:

for better than 95 cents a round it better gang fuck whoever I shoot and make em submit.



hehehe! aw man, i needed that laugh!!  too funny!
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:38:33 PM EDT
[#7]
 Try Ulyanovsk Hollow Points alongside anything you like on a water bottle/jug at 15 yards.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:46:44 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
I dunno the best but wolf hits pretty hard.  Over penetration could be a problem considering an 8 inch tree won't stop it.  And they are boattail






Wolf powerful?  That's the funnest thing I've heard in awhile.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:16:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:29:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Barnaul makes FMJ milspec ammo for the Russian army. I'm sure it kills people.

There does seem to be plenty of cheap 7.62x39, but no cheap self defense ammo in that caliber... Unless you count the cheap stuff you plink around and practice with.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:52:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 2:48:31 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Has anyone done any real testing of ammo? Im not talking about RR ties, wet phone books, water jugs, etc. None of which will have the same effect on a projectile as if it were to have hit flesh and bone. Im interested in this as well, but would like to have something more coherent than some backyard tests.



Are tests of the 7.62 x 39 actually necessary? Plenty of people have been shot with this round. I think we have a good idea of its effectiveness.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 5:19:46 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 7:17:02 PM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:
I know, and the people who do tests on the rounds, and have recovered them from people say 7.62x39 makes a wound much like a .38 Special. For as many people who have been shot with the round, the great majority of them are fine.



Who are these "people" who say that? How many people have been shot using a 7.62 x 39 in the last 6 months? 1 year? 10 years? How many of them are "just fine"? I don't believe ANYONE has such statistics.
The idea that a rifle bullet leaving the muzzle at 1000fps + faster than a pistol bullet would have the same effectiveness as that pistol bullet is laughable.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 11:37:09 PM EDT
[#15]
It also just completely ignores the laws of traumakinetics....It's like saying hitting a tree with your car at 120 mph will give you the same injuries as doing the the same with 12 mph.

Link Posted: 9/2/2005 4:41:03 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 4:00:03 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:27:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:00:12 AM EDT
[#19]
Am I supposed to believe that as a combat medic Dr. Fackler spent his time determining what country made the bullets which had caused the wounds?  Obviously he has obtained his data by firing into ballistic gelatin.  Tests like that "proved" the 9mm superior to the.45. 'Nuff said.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:29:12 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
Am I supposed to believe that as a combat medic Dr. Fackler spent his time determining what country made the bullets which had caused the wounds?  Obviously he has obtained his data by firing into ballistic gelatin.  Tests like that "proved" the 9mm superior to the.45. 'Nuff said.




You got a source to back up that outrageous statement?  I've never seen a statement from Fackler or any other ballistics expert that would support what you said.  

You got a better test medium?  Lemmie guess.. Water jugs, potroasts, and clay balls..
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:35:42 AM EDT
[#21]
If you were around during the period just before and just after the military adopted the 9mm you would know that the gun magazines were full of articles on tests that showed the 9mm was a superior cartridge because it disrupted ballistic gelatin much better than the .45 auto. Based on those tests the FBI also adopted the 9mm. The FBI (and most law enforcement) abandoned the 9mm after the two FBI agents were killed in Miami after they (and several other agents) shot the suspects repeatedly. The real world results were different than ballistic gelatin results.
The only reliable medium for testing the effects of a bullet on a human is a human. That isn't going to happen. If you read my first post you will see that I discount the need for tests on the 7.62 x 39 round due to the large number of people who have been shot using the cartridge.
The response to my post regarding the lack of statistic to support the statement that "most people" shot with a  7.62 x 39 are "just fine" was a post about ballistic gelatin, which proves my point. There are no such statistics.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 2:39:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:21:23 PM EDT
[#23]
 The old Uly blue and white hp's would frag on a waterbottle everytime.  Doc over at Tactical Forums finally jello tested them, said they look good.  I think they are called Sapsan hp's now.  It took him years to bother with testing them, maybe cause they are cheap?

 I miss Oberpoopshoot's expert advice, like when he said "a bimetal round fragmenting?  hehe I think not", or some dung like that.  Well now even the jelloheads can enjoy them.

 As far as guys shot with 7.62, if it missed vitals, I suppose they would recover.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:43:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:52:52 PM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:
I dunno the best but wolf hits pretty hard.  Over penetration could be a problem considering an 8 inch tree won't stop it.  And they are boattail




>>>>>Over penetration could be a problem<<<<<<  Understatement of the year.  I have heard of a 200gr AK load..  Can not remember who produced it, but it maybe slow enough to not cause secondary casualties.  Should hit like a truck though.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:15:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:02:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Not to get off topic but I've been wondering, has any one tryed the Winchester 123 gr JSP X76239 in an AK. I'm wondering how the brass holds up to the violent extraction of the Ak, It'd be nice to know if they are using hard primers with that ammo to.

The cheapest I've seen the X76239 is $12.25 a box at Outdoor Marksman, wonder if a better price could be obtained via a group buy, or if any one would be interested in a group buy?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:11:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:18:14 PM EDT
[#29]
If you want to see the effects of AK 7.62 bullet on a human watch "Many Faces of Death" the first one.

It shows a guy on the ground getting hit with a few and then shot in the face, lookes pretty effective to me.

If your defending yourself against a 10lb propane tank then Wolf 154gr. Soft point is the ticket. It will move one around so much more than a FMJ
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:11:03 PM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
If that's the standard Winchester Power Point hunting ammo, it works fine in the Arsenal Inc. and Polytech rifles I've used it in.



How does it treat the brass?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 10:43:16 PM EDT
[#31]
I am no expert here, and a AK newbie myself, but here is my take on bullet "Effectiveness".

The AK47 and all of it's family strikes me like more of an Offensive weapons system than a Defensive one.

Ballistic reports and tests of that nature make great reading, but in the real world pretty much any bullet will be effective if it hits the sweet spot. Carbine traing emphasizes Center Mass shots, and while some bullets do indeed perform better than others (ballistic wise) when all is said and done a bullet in the heart or head will make sure a Bad Guy has a bad day everytime.

I can think of several different weapons that would serve better than an AK for defensive duties. If it's all you have, then by all means, use it, but know that when it comes to an ideal home defense weapon the AK scores pretty darn low in the virtue dept. They are big, bulky, heavy, and most lack adequate sighting devices for low light work. This, added with a decent muzzle flash make the AK a questionable choice for defense work in low light conditions.

I don't have a problem with using FMJ ammo in any of my weapons.  Of course that doesn't mean that I keep all of my weapons loaded with them. I have my favorite rounds for each of my weapons, but when it comes down to it, a FMJ can and will do the job if placed in the right place.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:24:35 AM EDT
[#32]

Quoted:
 

 As far as guys shot with 7.62, if it missed vitals, I suppose they would recover.



The test of the defensive effectiveness of a bullet is NOT whether the target lives or dies. It's whether the target stops doing what caused you to shoot him in the first place. In fact the military would much rather wound an enemy than kill him. A wounded man consumes resources. His buddies stop fighting to help him. He has to be transported and cared for as soon as possible. A dead person does not consume resources in that fashion or on a priority basis.
I am personally aware of a number of people who were shot using the 7.62 x 39 cartridge. The majority of them did not continue fighting after being hit. At least two did. in my experience it is not a perfect fight stopper, but I would not hesitate to use one to defend myself in the unlikely event that the situation called for such action. That doesn't mean that I advocate using the 7.62 x 39 for home defense. The are much more suitable weapon/caliber combinations for that work.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 5:46:28 AM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:21:19 AM EDT
[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
 

 As far as guys shot with 7.62, if it missed vitals, I suppose they would recover.



The test of the defensive effectiveness of a bullet is NOT whether the target lives or dies. It's whether the target stops doing what caused you to shoot him in the first place. In fact the military would much rather wound an enemy than kill him. A wounded man consumes resources. His buddies stop fighting to help him. He has to be transported and cared for as soon as possible. A dead person does not consume resources in that fashion or on a priority basis.
I am personally aware of a number of people who were shot using the 7.62 x 39 cartridge. The majority of them did not continue fighting after being hit. At least two did. in my experience it is not a perfect fight stopper, but I would not hesitate to use one to defend myself in the unlikely event that the situation called for such action. That doesn't mean that I advocate using the 7.62 x 39 for home defense. The are much more suitable weapon/caliber combinations for that work.



I am so glad school starts up for most kids next week. I'm so tired of the children disrupting AK threads .
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:30:58 AM EDT
[#35]
I shot some of the Winchester SP at the range today after using Wolf FMJ and JHP to test my new Vector underfolder.  All of the ammo worked fine.  The Winchester SP was definetly more accurate also.  I plan on buying more Winchester SP and another case of Yugo M67 for when my Wolf ammo is gone.  

Ron
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 5:51:06 PM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:
 
I am so glad school starts up for most kids next week. I'm so tired of the children disrupting AK threads .



School started here two weeks ago. Some people NEVER learn no matter how hard you try to teach them.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:29:04 PM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
 
I am so glad school starts up for most kids next week. I'm so tired of the children disrupting AK threads .



School started here two weeks ago. Some people NEVER learn no matter how hard you try to teach them.



Wait till Daddy cuts off the money for school. In this case internet access money will do

BOT, this silliness of wounding an enemy with rifle fire to use up his resources is civilian fantasy. Only the victors recover the gunshot wounded from the battlefield. The loser leaves the wounded when he gives up the ground. The logic is as flawed as french military tactics of the first world war. You won't find it in any U.S. Military texts.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 4:00:05 AM EDT
[#38]
Daddy died in 1980. His money ran out some time ago.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 4:22:08 AM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:
It also just completely ignores the laws of traumakinetics..



come on you just made that word up and stuck "laws" to make it sound official, didn't you?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:32:41 AM EDT
[#40]
safd
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:53:34 PM EDT
[#41]
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 4:57:50 AM EDT
[#42]
aewF
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:48:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Wolf stinks (literally) but it works. I liked the 154 grain SP for hunting the deer hated it. But he died fairly quick to complain. The silver bear ammo seems good too for about $2 a box its good for plinking too. Winchester ammo in brass and it has soft primers too. Not very nice in aks. I have had double fires and the necks ripped off of the ammo. But I don't shoot it that much to have a wide sample to talk about.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 8:26:04 AM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:
Ballistics Testing: AK-47 Surplus Russain Ammo (122 gr. FMJ) versus 5.56 SS-109.

Test Article: a laminate of  1/4 inch steel plate, 2x4, 2x4, 3/16 inch steel plate.
Test rifles: Mini-30, AR-15 (16 inch barrel)

Distance from muzzle to Test Article: 10 yards.

Results:

AK: sliced through like "budda", entry holes and exit holes nearly the same diameter, and kicked up mucho dirt in the berm (i.e. still had lots of energy).

AR: jacket stopped by 1/4 inch plate; the pentrator (about the one half the size of a BB) was stopped by the first 2x4 (about half way through).

OBTW: 9mm (various types) from Glock-17 and Mini Uzi barely dented the 1/4 inch steel plate.




This test proved one thing, you are not very bright.

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 11:07:02 AM EDT
[#45]


BOT, this silliness of wounding an enemy with rifle fire to use up his resources is civilian fantasy. Only the victors recover the gunshot wounded from the battlefield. The loser leaves the wounded when he gives up the ground. The logic is as flawed as french military tactics of the first world war. You won't find it in any U.S. Military texts.



I think this wound an enemy instead of killing him concept is a little flawed.  I can think of several potential opponents who probably won't take the time to recover their wounded, like China, Russia, etc. They consider their troops to be expendable and medical treatment is way low on the list of priorities. I suspect that our troops go out of their way to recover their wounded buddies, but who else would?

While I have an AK, if a defense situation came up, I'd be grabbing the ARs first. Only if a situation came up where I needed the extra penetration of the 7.62x39, (like roving cars full of thugs raiding) would I grab the AK. It DOES swiss-cheese cars better than 5.56.

In any event, the skill of the shooter and bullet placement are more important than which gun is used, IMHO.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 1:56:57 PM EDT
[#46]
You underestimate the humanity of the troops of other nations. they act just like we do. in addition they're not stupid. If it is clear that no one will make any effort to treat them if they are wounded their morale and effectiveness plummets. I don't know how the Chinese or the Soviets treated their wounded but i do know the VC and the NVA did all they could for theirs.

ETA Some might be suprised that all the accumulated knowledge of the U.S. military is not contained in its publications.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:25:43 AM EDT
[#47]
asfh
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:24:14 AM EDT
[#48]

Quoted:
Stove_Pipe:  You are assuming facts not in evidence, and you know what they say about assumptions.






Shooting steel at 10 yards = trying to win Darwin Award.  The only assumption in my last comment was that what you posted was somewhat true.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:39:32 AM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:
I remember reading years ago that Fackler was "impressed" with the Yugoslavian M67 lead core flat base copper jacketed stuff, and bought as much of the Hansen (Prvi-Partizan) stuff I could get my hands on in the 80's.



+1 - Some Google searching should turn it up.  IIRC comparisons were based on data obtained by shooting anesthetized pigs.  There was at least one impressive photo of an M67 exit wound.  Fackler was comparing military ammo, though.  He did not compare M67 to soft-point or JHP ammo.  IIRC, the M67 was loaded fairly hot and the flat-base design promoted rapid yawing.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:21:58 AM EDT
[#50]
asfb
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