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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 12/25/2003 5:30:13 PM EST
Well, they are obviously drying up. Hence they prices going up. WASR-10's still in stock, but few SAR-1's. And no SAR-2's as far as I've been able to find.

I've heard various rumors as to why this is happening.

One story I've heard was that the Romanians jacked up their price, and Century didn't want to pay it.


I've also heard that the Romanians are now hording their rifles because of the geo political situation.

And then there is the ATF and the rulings on importing of parts kits.


What's the REAL story here guys?


Are we stuck with the parts kits we already have and no more?

Will another importer start importing Romanian AK's?

What say you?
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 5:46:24 PM EST
I dont know why they stopped importing them but im hoping its because of something on the Romanian side. We dont need anymore imported rifles being banned.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:06:16 PM EST
I fear somthing sinister is afoot.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 6:43:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2003 6:44:14 PM EST by mattld]
If there is still demand enough for them then I am sure that some arbitrageur will import or export them for a profit.

Basic economics will prevail in all cases.  You may just have to wait a short while until it takes effect.  

You could just sit around and wait or get an Arsenal AK which is not that much more than a SAR-1.  
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:24:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Agcsy:
I dont know why they stopped importing them but im hoping its because of something on the Romanian side. We dont need anymore imported rifles being banned.



Wish I was an 'insider' on these deals... I'll put up $500 that it isn't on the Romanian side...
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:38:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By dinkydow:
I fear somthing sinister is afoot.



A nigga like me feels quite the same. No racial offense intended towards any of you fellas/ (ladies?). Man, it's not like we haven't seen this crapola before....Seems you always have to wonder who's going to be next and we're running out of importable goodies from the various Combloc states.

Now if the '94 Hell actually does go away, well then we'll talk...

Shit, right now it's modified single stack Rommies with thumbhole stocks...

...Almost 7 years though, Fuckin' "Rommie Ruskies" got a bigger piece of the pie than the Chinese, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Egyptians combined. Sheeesh, only the Chinese had a better shot at making money off of us. 'We' "banned" them and they hit us like a ton of bricks with 'compliant' rifles... If only the "U.S. made parts count" crapola had been realized in time...)
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:41:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By mattld:

Basic economics will prevail in all cases.  You may just have to wait a short while until it takes effect.  
 



I tend to disagree. When/ If I see something new I might still have faith.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:49:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By mattld:
 You could just sit around and wait or get an Arsenal AK which is not that much more than a SAR-1.  



Again I disagree, no personal offense intended Matt but the Arsenal rifles are plenty more expensive than the basic SAR/WASR/WUM/CUR....

Perhaps more durable/reliable/better looking than some other 'box-stock' options. Then again you could buy the Arsenal 5.56 with no supply of standard capacity 30 round mags to speak of. And the Global rifles? Good God, I was tempted to let them build a custom rifle for me, appears they have a difficult time with the ones they sell. (I'd buy a Rommie and deal with it's 'ugliness')
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 11:59:24 PM EST
1Gunrunner,

Did I offend you? (it wasn't intentional). My choice of adjectives is mine, not yours. Hey man, I'm The All-American Mother-Fuckin' Anti-Christ.  It's called Freedom baby! Suck on those NUTZ white-boy.

Good Mother-Fucking God, I hope not. (re: Did I offend you?)

With a screen-name like yours I'd be happy to bet you're a less desirable individual than myself. But I don't bet much and your 'politically correct' ass can bite mine)

Suck on these NUTZ, nixxa.

I'll reply here if you wish, IM's will be disregarded.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 12:08:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 12:12:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2003 12:13:49 AM EST by threefiftynone]

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Carry on guys.  Problem solved.

1GR



I wonder how?    What a dumbass...

Edited to wonder what his new username will be?
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 3:36:23 AM EST
WOW, that went south quick! LOL!

Ok, anyone else have any more info? Campy, you got the inside scoop?
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 4:02:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 4:10:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 5:12:23 AM EST
I really wish Arsenal would start making stamped receiver AK's. The seem to make nice rifles but not everyone wants a milled receiver.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 6:10:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 6:51:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
pending awb changes.



WTF?  

Bob, can you give more info?  I would appreciate it.

Link Posted: 12/26/2003 6:52:33 AM EST
Pending AWB changes=sunset.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 6:56:04 AM EST
mmkay, thanks.  But why would the sunset drive up the prices and limit the importation of parts kits.

Sorry to be an AK newbie, but I wanna know.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 7:42:06 AM EST
I'd say it has alot to do with the Iraqi contract.I don't the timetable for delivery but I'd be willing to bet they're working alot of overtime.
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 9:59:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By WildWes:

Again I disagree, no personal offense intended Matt but the Arsenal rifles are plenty more expensive than the basic SAR/WASR/WUM/CUR....



I do agree that they are a little more expensive, but the phrase "plenty more" just doesn't apply.  A Krebs or ORF AK is "plenty more" expensive than a SAR-1.  The Arsenal guns that I am commenting about are the ones at a local gun show (that I saw) that can be had for $450 NIB.  That is only like $150 more than your standard NIB SAR-1.  And if prices on SAR-1s are increasing due to low supply then the slightly higher price of the Arsenal AK is justified.

Plus, quality-wise, I think Arsenal makes some pretty nice stuff, in comparison to an SAR-1.  Now don't get me wrong, my first AK was an SAR-1 and I loved it, but, when I compare it to the Arsenal AKs I see at gunshows, I can tell a major difference between the two quality wise.  

And while I cannot justify the price of a Krebs AK or anything else in the $650 -$800 price range, I can promote the $450-$500 price of an Arsenal 7.62 AK as opposed to the $300 (and rising) price of an SAR-1.  That is just IMO.

And yes, assuming everything stays as it is legal-wise, you can expect someone to import the Romanian SAR-1s for a profit.  I have a friend who exports comic books from the US to Europe and makes large profits.  That same idea holds true in the gun market, barring restrictions and law-changes.  Someone will do it as long as there are profits to be made.  If not, then the basic economic principles that are taught in colleges worldwide collapse.  And something tells me that would not be a good thing.  
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 7:55:05 PM EST
An educated guess from a penguin that has seen how the large scale import business of firearms works, but dosnt know dick shit about this current situation:

Century placed an order for more guns from Romania right when they ran out, selling their remaining inventory to SOG and AIM.

They told SOG and AIM that they have no more. A true statement.

Right about now they have about 10 containers full of AKs sitting on a dock waiting to get on a ship to make the long float to Canada.

Meanwhile SOG and AIM are making up whatever reasons they want to tell you just to squeeze a couple extra bucks outa customers/dealers, just like how they label any random pallet of ammo as ETALON and jack up the price 300%.

Of course this is all wild speculation. :)
Link Posted: 12/26/2003 8:35:11 PM EST
CAI got a contract in Iraq?  Can someone explain the details of this to me?
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 2:51:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 2:59:20 AM EST by Templar]
NO, Century did not get a contract to supply the new Iraqi Police and Militias with AK's..........Romania did.

We are destroying thousands of AK's over there and buying new ones from Romania as a big "Thank You".  Romania was one of the first countries to have our backs in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and the only thing it seems like they can export right now for hard currency are firearms and women.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 4:47:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 5:02:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 5:02:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Templar:
We are destroying thousands of AK's over there and buying new ones from Romania as a big "Thank You".  Romania was one of the first countries to have our backs in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and the only thing it seems like they can export right now for hard currency are firearms and women.



And... the women are not big sellers.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 5:07:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 6:56:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
have you tried to find love at romaniansingles.com?

www.romaniasingles.com/



www.womenbehindbars.com
I have better luck here
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:44:26 AM EST
women behind bars, they look better then i thought they would.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:48:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 11:50:49 AM EST by HeavyMetal]
I have a question.  Are those WASR's current production or unsold due to the arrival of the SAR some years ago??

Mabey this is Century's last chance to move the WASR's because after the AWB sunsets, no one will touch one with a ten foot pole.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 12:50:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:42:18 PM EST
Only speculation on my part, but, I do have some thought-provoking sort of questions to ask...

If it is still perfectly kosher to import the SAR series, why haven't we been able to buy any commercial semi-auto FAL's built on Imbel receivers (like Springfield used to do)?  Why are there no more G3 clones from Greece or Portugal (FMP)?  Why no semi IMI uzis or galils?

There are already enough US made parts for all of the above examples to do exactly what Century was doing with the SAR series.  But yet, it isn't being done.   I can't believe that the demand isn't there, I've seen FMP HK receivers sell for ~$400 online, and the IMI galil receivers, when you can find them, go for the same.   Hell, people were lining up to pay $250 for a freakin Hesse galil receiver, cause that was all that was available (that turned out to never be available in any case).

The willingness to sell exists as well, at least in some cases.  Some of you will perhaps recall the article about IMI being exited about the AWB sunsetting which would allow them to export their guns to the US again.  Of course, they didn't realize that the AWB wouldn't directly effect importation, but that's not the point - the point is that they are willing to sell, and that there appears to be a market for their product here.   So... when you have a seller that wants to send their product here, and there appears to be a market for it, when it doesn't happen I can only think that there are other factors involved - like legal ones.

It seems that the SAR series was unique the past few years.   It is the only "assault style" rifle I can think of that was imported with a receiver that could take standard "hicap" magazines, after the 1998(I think?) further reclassification of "sporting purposes" under Clinton (the same one that halted importation of parts kits as well, later reallowed for "replacement use" under Bush).   Everything else takes proprietary magazines with <=10 round mags and is converted after importation, ala the WASR, which is of course still being imported.   Either that, or not being imported at all - the AK's are the only rifles I can think of offhand that are being converted on a large commercial scale, probably mostly because of the ease of coverting from the proprietary mags to standard mags.

The timing is also somewhat strange.   This is all hearsay, but even before the announcement, several folks reported the ATF hanging around Century's warehouses on and off for several weeks.   Also, at the same time as the AK announcement, the muzzle brakes disappeared from their G3 and CETME clones.   The apparent ATF audit supposedly reclassified these as either flash hiders or grenade launchers.  Not sure which - Century seems to be quiet about the whole thing.

So...  perhaps I'm getting a bit tin-foil hat-ish, but my thinking is that the SAR series somehow slipped under the radar when the importation of parts kits was lifted.   If you recall, the "last ones" and "banned!" banners were all over Century's ads for the SAR series in the late 90's just like everything else.   After Bush got in and the parts kits started coming back, the SAR's quietly reappeared, but no other complete firearm did.   As to the reason behind a lack of "banned!" advertisements now, I'd speculate it could be the difference between change of policy (as happened before) vs. getting "caught" importing something that shouldn't have really been approved for import in the first place.   If the latter, you don't want to call attention to it.

So... who knows, but that's my opinion, which is probably worth exactly what you paid for it.

Rocko
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:46:39 PM EST
Technically, the SAR's were domestic, not import due to the parts swap while still technically outside the US.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 2:45:40 AM EST
I may be wrong but was not importation of"non-sporting"(as defined by GCA 1968)Assault rifles Banned in 1989? My take is that domestic production of Assault rifles was banned in September of 1994.When the AWB sunsets in in September of 2004......how then,does this suddenly negate the 1989 import ban?Seems to me that with the 1994 ban on manufacture of assault rifles, that are manufactured domestically gone,only domestically manufactured assault rifles will be effected.Not imported assault rifles,which will remain un-importable.Not so? So,also, any firearm(post ban rifle)that was manufactured during the 10 year assault rifle ban,will have "features"that will remain banned because these rifles were mfg,during assault rifle ban period.Nicht var?Sooooooo,when the assault rifle domestic production ban,law,expires......we will be able to have previously "banned features" on rifles produced after September 2004,or before September 1994?  
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:35:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Technically, the SAR's were domestic, not import due to the parts swap while still technically outside the US.



Yes, the rifles as a whole are considered domestically manufactured, but the receiver is still imported - and imported in a configuration that can accept standard mangazines.  The "sporting purposes" test was extended to cover the receivers of effected guns as well in the late 90's.

Up until then, the way SAR's were imported and reconfigured was not unique.   A few quick examples off the top of my head are the Springfield 4800 (imbel FAL) and the SAR-8 (greek HK clone).  These used imported receivers and had the appropriate amount of parts replaced with US made ones, just like the SAR rifles.   However, importation of any other rifle of this type, that I can think of, was started up again after the Bush administration loosened importation restrictions a bit, allowing for "replacement use".  In fact, you can't even get an approved form 6 for any other stripped receiver from rifles that would otherwise be restricted from imporation, except for "replacement use".  Yet despite this, Century had been importing the SAR's at least as barreled receivers.

So, the SAR series is still the oddball, and now is no more...

Rocko
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:09:05 AM EST
Lots of good ideas here, but here's mine:

If I were in charge of CAI and my "turn" (total time to sell) of shipments took 12-18 months then there is no way I would be holding inventory within 12 months of a go/no-go law change in the U.S. It would make for a bad business decision and if there were no other major importers then 'I' would control the market and would be able to sit on my hands until 'I' knew that the law were going to sunset and then negotiate my next price based on the 'new' market (with more potetial players, etc.)

Oh yea and I'd get better monkeys and triggers...
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:49:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 9:55:33 AM EST by smoken44]
I have to agree with Rocko. New high cap semi autos are only available because of a loophole in the current law. The powers to be do not want you (joe tax payer) to be able to buy them. Pure and simple. Since no one can manufacture an "assult rifle" for public consumption, all they have to do is reclasify them as "Non Sporting". Presto.... all semi high cap firearms not under the current AWB / import laws are now included. A very dangerious interpetation.

It is a pipe dream to think that the current AWB is going to go away and not be replaced with something much worse.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 5:28:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By smoken44:
I have to agree with Rocko. New high cap semi autos are only available because of a loophole in the current law. The powers to be do not want you (joe tax payer) to be able to buy them. Pure and simple. Since no one can manufacture an "assult rifle" for public consumption, all they have to do is reclasify them as "Non Sporting". Presto.... all semi high cap firearms not under the current AWB / import laws are now included. A very dangerious interpetation.

It is a pipe dream to think that the current AWB is going to go away and not be replaced with something much worse.

Link Posted: 12/31/2003 5:17:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By RustyTX:
Lots of good ideas here, but here's mine:

If I were in charge of CAI and my "turn" (total time to sell) of shipments took 12-18 months then there is no way I would be holding inventory within 12 months of a go/no-go law change in the U.S. It would make for a bad business decision and if there were no other major importers then 'I' would control the market and would be able to sit on my hands until 'I' knew that the law were going to sunset and then negotiate my next price based on the 'new' market (with more potetial players, etc.)...



Since the whole thread is only speculation, my speculation tends to agree with that of RustyTX.  I'm not connected with CAI and I wonder what will happen to SARs, etc. should the AWB die next Sept.  Century and any other importer needs to consider the impact of the sunset (or not) and have some plan in place for continuance of business in either event.  If all of a sudden in the fall of 2004 the physical appearance of semi-auto rifles with detachable magazines changes to include features that were previously kosher, then who would want SARs that had already been bought and paid for, and how much would they be willing to pay when other options would be springing up?  

Given that, and the fact that Congress could attach an AWB re-up authorization as a rider to a necessary funding bill and that would be that.

Too many unknowns, but one thing remains.  "Jerry Maguire" was right.  Follow the money.

Noah
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:22:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 4:23:25 AM EST by rocko]

Originally Posted By noah:
Since the whole thread is only speculation, my speculation tends to agree with that of RustyTX.  I'm not connected with CAI and I wonder what will happen to SARs, etc. should the AWB die next Sept.  Century and any other importer needs to consider the impact of the sunset (or not) and have some plan in place for continuance of business in either event.  If all of a sudden in the fall of 2004 the physical appearance of semi-auto rifles with detachable magazines changes to include features that were previously kosher, then who would want SARs that had already been bought and paid for, and how much would they be willing to pay when other options would be springing up?  

Given that, and the fact that Congress could attach an AWB re-up authorization as a rider to a necessary funding bill and that would be that.

Too many unknowns, but one thing remains.  "Jerry Maguire" was right.  Follow the money.

Noah



Perhaps, but what exactly do the SAR's lack that would make them that unattractive if the AWB is not reupped?   How much effort would it really take for one of the monkey's at Century to thread the muzzle using a muzzle die?   Perhaps it is not the proper way to thread a muzzle, but then Century has never really been concerned with that in the past.    I don't know chops the bayo lug - the romanians or Century.  If the former, I'd think that Century could simply change the order to ship with the lugs, and chop them off themselves as necessary until the AWB sunsets.  If the latter, then it is already a non-issue.

Perhaps this would be more work that they are willing to do, but I'd think it actually takes more work to convert a WASR to accept the standard mags than chop the bayo lug now, or thread muzzles post-AWB.   I can't believe it costs more for the romanians to produce a SAR than a WASR, so unless they got tons of WASR's already sitting around collecting dust (admittedly, these are pretty much attractive only to the US market, while the SAR's presumably have a wider worldwide market) I don't see how there could be that much of a price difference between the two.

Rocko
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 6:26:57 AM EST
I talked to a Century Rep on Monday and he stated that the SAR-1s are being banned in the US because these rifles are manufactured on "military machines" in Romania and the US will not allow the importation of weapons that are produced in military factories...

I just picked up my first AK variant in a hi-cap WASR 10 and I must say I really like the Dragonov stock...another shop had a 2002 SAR1 and I didn't like th ergonomics of that rifle...I located some SAR 1's, so a friend and I are going to be picking up at least two...glad we found them because the person we are buying them from stated that his prices were going to increase.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 7:15:35 AM EST


I talked to a Century Rep on Monday and he stated that the SAR-1s are being banned in the US because these rifles are manufactured on "military machines" in Romania and the US will not allow the importation of weapons that are produced in military factories...



Never heard that one before.

Wonder how long it took Cnetury to make up that story?
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 9:27:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:11:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 10:13:24 AM EST by HeavyMetal]
P.S.

Are the WASR's not also made on much of the same "Military Equipment" by the same people in the same fatories on the same assembly lines?

I'll stick with my original theory that this is to get rid of as many WASR's before sept as possibleso they aren't stuck with them for all time.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 2:43:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 3:00:22 PM EST
Well that is the thing...don't always believe what you see or hear.  A local FFL holder stated that the BATF shut down Century a few months ago and they were surprised that Century was back in business...it's difficult at times to weed out rumors and speculation from the reality.  All I know is I like my WASR10 and I have a SAR1 on it's way.  I don't know all the politics that goes on, but I do know that buying a $300 AK variant is a good deal to me.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 3:20:44 PM EST

I do know that buying a $300 AK variant is a good deal to me.


As I am taking my laminated SAR-1 to the range tommorow.  Weather permitting.
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