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Posted: 9/16/2005 3:42:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 3:43:27 PM EDT by fadedsun]
Either..

A) The bolt would slam into the back of the receiver and give you one hell of a kick into your shoulder and shear off the rivets, making the furniture free to go into your shoulder..(Stamped rifle)
B) The bolt carrier would shear off and the top half would go through the dust cover and exhibit impressive penetration on your cranium.
C) I would function as a semi-auto only with the kick of a .600nitro express

Spent last night wondering about it
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:47:52 PM EDT
try it & let us know
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:51:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:52:29 PM EDT
Would it still bump ?
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:52:54 PM EDT
dooo it! dooo it! Dooo It! DOooo IT! DOOO IT! DOOO IT!
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:53:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Either..

A) The bolt would slam into the back of the receiver and give you one hell of a kick into your shoulder and shear off the rivets, making the furniture free to go into your shoulder..(Stamped rifle)
B) The bolt carrier would shear off and the top half would go through the dust cover and exhibit impressive penetration on your cranium.
C) I would function as a semi-auto only with the kick of a .600nitro express

Spent last night wondering about it



It'll tickle.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:20:19 PM EDT
I got my money on losing an eye....
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:21:17 PM EDT
it will still work. but only under water
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:26:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
dooo it! dooo it! Dooo It! DOooo IT! DOOO IT! DOOO IT!




And don't forget the pics. Or better yet, VIDEO!!
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:51:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob:

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
dooo it! dooo it! Dooo It! DOooo IT! DOOO IT! DOOO IT!




And don't forget the pics. Or better yet, VIDEO!!



Yes, video for sure. If you have a high speed camera so that we can watch the video in slow motion that would be even better.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:58:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Either..

A) The bolt would slam into the back of the receiver and give you one hell of a kick into your shoulder and shear off the rivets, making the furniture free to go into your shoulder..(Stamped rifle)
B) The bolt carrier would shear off and the top half would go through the dust cover and exhibit impressive penetration on your cranium.
C) I would function as a semi-auto only with the kick of a .600nitro express

Spent last night wondering about it



Not "C." How are you going to get semi-automatic fire with no spring? I'd guess something milder than "A." It's not that powerful of a round, and there's a lot of metal to get through.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 5:01:25 PM EDT
I imagine it would hit the end of the receiver, maybe bounce forward a little bit, not much else.


Why the hell would you want to do this anyway?
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 5:02:13 PM EDT
tag for video
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 5:04:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
it will still work. but only under water



I knew it!
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 1:12:26 AM EDT


The bolt carrier will smack the rear trunnion. Probably leaving a mark. the bolt carrier may then bounce out of the receiver, thats it.

Don't drink and post
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 2:03:48 AM EDT
I'mnot 100% on what would happed, but my guess is that the word "Ouch" would ensue soon after pulling the trigger. --ST
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 2:22:32 AM EDT
If you use the old Wolf Ammo?

Pretty much nothing other than not having the spring to grab the next round.

Link Posted: 9/17/2005 3:26:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletBait:



Don't drink and post



Sometimes drinking causes the best posts.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 4:21:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
I'mnot 100% on what would happed, but my guess is that the word "Ouch" would ensue soon after pulling the trigger. --ST



Preceeded by the words "Let's try this guys"
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 5:08:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 762bodydropper:

Originally Posted By SchlaffTablett:
I'mnot 100% on what would happed, but my guess is that the word "Ouch" would ensue soon after pulling the trigger. --ST



Preceeded by the words "Let's try this guys"



I thought it was "Here. Hold my beer."
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 7:34:26 AM EDT
My guess is the carrier would move back, hit the rear tang, bounce a little and stop. Maybe jump up out of the rails.
Why do you think it would kick bad? People shoot bolt actions in much higher power cartridges than this all the time and they don't have "the kick of a .600nitro express".
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 8:27:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2005 8:29:09 AM EDT by Darkest2000]

Originally Posted By JimTh:
My guess is the carrier would move back, hit the rear tang, bounce a little and stop. Maybe jump up out of the rails.
Why do you think it would kick bad? People shoot bolt actions in much higher power cartridges than this all the time and they don't have "the kick of a .600nitro express".


That's a good point but you forgot about the added "oomph" from the momentum created by the SPEED and WEIGHT of the bolt carrier as the recoil forces it back.

There's no such thing on a bolt action because the speed and weight is zero. Also we're talking about a smaller impact area and a block of STEEL, not a rubber buttpad.

Remember the bolt carrier of a HK G3 travels back with a force of 3 tons, and that's after the "delayed" roller blowback.

I don't think the AK will create as much force due to the weaker cartridge and gas operating system but it'd be interesting to see what happens.

Another thing is without the recoil spring there's obviously no way to keep the top cover on, so I would think there's a good chance the bolt carrier will jump out.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 8:56:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:
That's a good point but you forgot about the added "oomph" from the momentum created by the SPEED and WEIGHT of the bolt carrier as the recoil forces it back.

There's no such thing on a bolt action because the speed and weight is zero. Also we're talking about a smaller impact area and a block of STEEL, not a rubber buttpad.

Remember the bolt carrier of a HK G3 travels back with a force of 3 tons, and that's after the "delayed" roller blowback.

I don't think the AK will create as much force due to the weaker cartridge and gas operating system but it'd be interesting to see what happens.

Another thing is without the recoil spring there's obviously no way to keep the top cover on, so I would think there's a good chance the bolt carrier will jump out.




the act of moving all that weight and accelerating the bolt carrier uses up energy, if you have a spring installed it uses even more energy. it wouldn't be that bad of recoil, all the energy would easily push the bolt carrier back and no "push" would be on the rifle so recoil would be less than when you have the spring in. at the end of the track the bolt carrier would probably jump track and maybe wack you in the face. most of the energy would already be used up and it would leave a nasty bruse, loose and eye, buy not penetrate your skull. of course all that hot gas comming out of the chamber as the case comes out would go directly into your face.

Link Posted: 9/17/2005 9:14:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 9:33:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

and no "push" would be on the rifle so recoil would be less than when you have the spring in.


Your physics-fu is non-existant.




why? all the recoil energy would be on the bolt carrier, and without the spring, would not be transfered to the rifle until the carrier hit the back of the receiver. at that time it would probably jump track and hit you in the face. less energy is impacted on the rifle and more to throwing the bolt carrier back at you. RECOIL on the rilfle would be minimal. if the carrier stayed in the rifle, (seems unlikely to me), then the energy would be transfered to your shoulder. It would also be the same amount of energy then as if you had fired with the spring in. it would just be "sharper" than with the spring. but the total foot pounds would be the same.

if my physics-fu is bad, tell me where i am wrong.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 9:43:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 10:21:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
1) The spring does convert a slight amount of mechanical energy into thermal energy.

this would be so tiny that it is not even a factor.

2) The bolt carrier would be pushed up out of its track by spring compression on the hammer. This would not act on the bolt carrier untill the bolt carrier has struck the rear trunion and imparted its full recoil energy.

ok, i just checked my AK, and you will probably be right, with the spring removed, and if i pull back the carrier really fast it will hit the trunion every time. If i pull back slowly, it will pop up and out without hitting the trunion, but only by about 1/16 of an inch. so, i will conclude that it would hit the trunion before poping off it's track. i still stand by the statement that recoil energy will be the same. just delivered differently.



Link Posted: 9/18/2005 10:39:18 AM EDT
Boy the Wanted to buy AK section sure is swell.

Link Posted: 9/18/2005 1:13:31 PM EDT
My brain hurts
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 1:57:35 PM EDT
I was hoping that since this was posted on a weekend that somebody would have tried it by now. Come on guys! Where is the old "hold my beer and watch this" spirit??
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 2:09:50 PM EDT
You first.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 2:14:34 PM EDT
I went shooting yesterday and completely forgot to do it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 3:17:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
dooo it! dooo it! Dooo It! DOooo IT! DOOO IT! DOOO IT!



Go ahead and do it, but first let me be the sole beneficiary on your life insurance.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 3:25:54 PM EDT
For this feat you would surely reach "FULL MORON" status. But I am wondering now. If I had 10 or 12 aks and a buncha kits laying around. I would try this. hint hint. However, I would not be holding said AK when I did this. probably on a bench using a stick and ABSOLUTELY with a camera on.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:04:28 PM EDT
Benchrest/sandbags...video camera...piece of string.....let's see the video.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 5:35:59 PM EDT
how is you top cover going to stay on with out the recoil spring guide in the rear trunnion?
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:17:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
how is you top cover going to stay on with out the recoil spring guide in the rear trunnion?



duct tape.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 6:56:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
how is you top cover going to stay on with out the recoil spring guide in the rear trunnion?



More importantly, how are you going to keep the bolt carrier from sliding backwards in the receiver without the spring tension holding it in? Even if you forced it forward with your hand it still might not be tight enough against the trunnion to get a good strike on the primer.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 7:00:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pomofo:

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
how is you top cover going to stay on with out the recoil spring guide in the rear trunnion?



More importantly, how are you going to keep the bolt carrier from sliding backwards in the receiver without the spring tension holding it in? Even if you forced it forward with your hand it still might not be tight enough against the trunnion to get a good strike on the primer.



The sliding rotating bolt should lock negating this problem but good analysis
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 8:41:27 PM EDT
If this isnt a "Hold my beer" moment I dont know what one is.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 2:40:52 AM EDT

If this isnt a "Hold my beer" moment I dont know what one is.





No kidding.....my first thought when I saw the topic to this thread.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 5:54:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 8:53:18 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
You are not the same guy that wanted to "Borrow" an AK for an experiment and the owner should not expect to receive their gun back in the same condition are you...?

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=128&t=297346

OH MAN... IT IS YOU!!!



Link Posted: 9/20/2005 12:11:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 9:34:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
You are not the same guy that wanted to "Borrow" an AK for an experiment and the owner should not expect to receive their gun back in the same condition are you...?

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=128&t=297346

OH MAN... IT IS YOU!!!






Umm yup . Hey, it's all for experimentation and for the sake of science.

Still no takers !

Link Posted: 9/21/2005 9:46:37 AM EDT
Ya'll have it all wrong, it's not "here, hold my beer" It's "hey ya'll, watch this"
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:17:24 AM EDT
Tagged
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:36:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 762bodydropper:
For this feat you would surely reach "FULL MORON" status. But I am wondering now. If I had 10 or 12 aks and a buncha kits laying around. I would try this. hint hint. However, I would not be holding said AK when I did this. probably on a bench using a stick and ABSOLUTELY with a camera on.



At LEAST that status.

I have several AK's and a bunch more kits and theres no way in HELL that I'd pull a FUBAR stunt like that. Here's what's going to happen: It's not going to work! Some peoples kids.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:00:43 PM EDT
How about one of you people that work at an ak dealer, Like arsenal.......You know R&D purposes....Come on I know you guys got something laying around the shop.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 8:45:47 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:07:03 PM EDT
Heck, let's do a drawing. Everyone sends a buck or two, then use that cash to buy a cheap AK and see what it does. The winner, drawn at random from everyone who submitted a dollar, get's the destroyed AK as a trophy.

Maybe they could also test out some other "AK Myths"...MythBusters AR15.com style.

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:22:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By grizzlyarms:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
1) The spring does convert a slight amount of mechanical energy into thermal energy.

this would be so tiny that it is not even a factor.

2) The bolt carrier would be pushed up out of its track by spring compression on the hammer. This would not act on the bolt carrier untill the bolt carrier has struck the rear trunion and imparted its full recoil energy.

ok, i just checked my AK, and you will probably be right, with the spring removed, and if i pull back the carrier really fast it will hit the trunion every time. If i pull back slowly, it will pop up and out without hitting the trunion, but only by about 1/16 of an inch. so, i will conclude that it would hit the trunion before poping off it's track. i still stand by the statement that recoil energy will be the same. just delivered differently.






Initially the bolt will be locked, so the majority of the recoil energy will be transferred to the whole rifle. The movement of the bolt group is primarily derived from the gas pressure acting on the piston, not recoil on the bolt face.
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