User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 10/1/2014 12:26:27 PM EDT
[#1]
none currently.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/1/2014 1:09:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Teh interwebz tells us that some Tula uses the 8M3 or 8HP bullet. I'll buy a box of Tula 124 gr HP next time I'm at Sportsman's Warehouse and do a full review. I'll check it for the scoring on the inside of the jacket, pull a bullet, weigh, photograph, etc. Then I'll test it in gel and water. If the rest of us can sample Tula 124 gr HP from various sources and different lots, then maybe we can get a feel for whether the 8M3 or 8HP bullets are used or some other projectile. Please buy a box and check it. Shoot it into water if you have the opportunity. If it frags in water, it will probably fragment in gelatin or tissue, too.
If we can identify an easy way to check the bullet, a guy could just buy one box at a local retailer, check it right there, and buy more if it had the right bullet. At worst, you would have a box of range ammo. It could be as simple as 124 gr HP is the "effect" bullet while 122 gr HP is essentially ball. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/2/2014 9:06:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Teh interwebz tells us that some Tula uses the 8M3 or 8HP bullet. I'll buy a box of Tula 124 gr HP next time I'm at Sportsman's Warehouse and do a full review. I'll check it for the scoring on the inside of the jacket, pull a bullet, weigh, photograph, etc. Then I'll test it in gel and water. If the rest of us can sample Tula 124 gr HP from various sources and different lots, then maybe we can get a feel for whether the 8M3 or 8HP bullets are used or some other projectile. Please buy a box and check it. Shoot it into water if you have the opportunity. If it frags in water, it will probably fragment in gelatin or tissue, too. If we can identify an easy way to check the bullet, a guy could just buy one box at a local retailer, check it right there, and buy more if it had the right bullet. At worst, you would have a box of range ammo. It could be as simple as 124 gr HP is the "effect" bullet while 122 gr HP is essentially ball. That's a great idea, given that a box is only like $5. Is there any way to check it without cutting the bullet in half? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/2/2014 9:18:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a great idea, given that a box is only like $5. Is there any way to check it without cutting the bullet in half? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Teh interwebz tells us that some Tula uses the 8M3 or 8HP bullet. I'll buy a box of Tula 124 gr HP next time I'm at Sportsman's Warehouse and do a full review. I'll check it for the scoring on the inside of the jacket, pull a bullet, weigh, photograph, etc. Then I'll test it in gel and water. If the rest of us can sample Tula 124 gr HP from various sources and different lots, then maybe we can get a feel for whether the 8M3 or 8HP bullets are used or some other projectile. Please buy a box and check it. Shoot it into water if you have the opportunity. If it frags in water, it will probably fragment in gelatin or tissue, too. If we can identify an easy way to check the bullet, a guy could just buy one box at a local retailer, check it right there, and buy more if it had the right bullet. At worst, you would have a box of range ammo. It could be as simple as 124 gr HP is the "effect" bullet while 122 gr HP is essentially ball. That's a great idea, given that a box is only like $5. Is there any way to check it without cutting the bullet in half? You used to be able to tell by feeling around the inside of the tip with a needle or paperclip for the pre-fail cuts, but as this video shows, not all pre-fail cuts are made equal. I have seen "8M3 Effect" printed on the sides of 1000rd boxes. Herters/Tulammo HP Test/Cutaway |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/3/2014 1:14:05 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You used to be able to tell by feeling around the inside of the tip with a needle or paperclip for the pre-fail cuts, but as this video shows, not all pre-fail cuts are made equal. I have seen "8M3 Effect" printed on the sides of 1000rd boxes. Herters/Tulammo HP Test/Cutaway Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Teh interwebz tells us that some Tula uses the 8M3 or 8HP bullet. I'll buy a box of Tula 124 gr HP next time I'm at Sportsman's Warehouse and do a full review. I'll check it for the scoring on the inside of the jacket, pull a bullet, weigh, photograph, etc. Then I'll test it in gel and water. If the rest of us can sample Tula 124 gr HP from various sources and different lots, then maybe we can get a feel for whether the 8M3 or 8HP bullets are used or some other projectile. Please buy a box and check it. Shoot it into water if you have the opportunity. If it frags in water, it will probably fragment in gelatin or tissue, too. If we can identify an easy way to check the bullet, a guy could just buy one box at a local retailer, check it right there, and buy more if it had the right bullet. At worst, you would have a box of range ammo. It could be as simple as 124 gr HP is the "effect" bullet while 122 gr HP is essentially ball. That's a great idea, given that a box is only like $5. Is there any way to check it without cutting the bullet in half? You used to be able to tell by feeling around the inside of the tip with a needle or paperclip for the pre-fail cuts, but as this video shows, not all pre-fail cuts are made equal. I have seen "8M3 Effect" printed on the sides of 1000rd boxes. Herters/Tulammo HP Test/Cutaway We can each still take photos, feel the inside, note the lot and weight, and shoot into water jugs. Maybe if we get a large enough sample size, we can see some common factors so that we can learn how to find cheap ammo with the 8M3 or 8HP bullets. In the mean time, it looks as though all of the Russian 123 gr soft point performs well. If I was going to buy only one case of ammo for SHTF and home defense and it had to be cheap, that's what I'd get. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/3/2014 2:38:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Okay, I bought a box each of Tula 124 gr HP, 124 gr SP, and 154 gr SP. I also cut open the 124 gr HP and found scoring that looks pretty near identical to the scoring in the video above. Not really surprising at all, but it's still possible that the 124 gr HP may perform differently than the 122 gr HP. If you cut one open, I found that the easiest way for me was to lay it horizontally in my vice and cut with my dremmel just above that half way mark. Don't bother trying to cut the lead with the dremmel, just get through the jacket and then use a sharp knife to cut right through the soft lead. Be mindful of lead dust, of course. I still want to see if other people are seeing different results. I couldn't really feel the scoring marks with a staple inserted in the cavity so it looks like the only way to know would be to cut it open and/or shoot into water.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/5/2014 4:21:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Interesting
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/9/2014 10:18:39 PM EDT
[#8]
I just checked the Tula ammo I have on hand and mine is the 122 gr HP. So obviously this isn't the 8M3 bullet, as that is a 124 gr projectile. But interestingly, on the bottom of the box it lists "The Ulyanovsk Cartridge Works" as the manufacturer. So if you get some of the Tula ammo that is made by Ulynovsk and contains a 124 gr HP, does that mean you have the 8M3 bullet? Or are there actually two different 124 gr HP bullet designs used in Uly loads with vastly different performance?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/11/2014 3:16:11 AM EDT
[#9]
My 124 gr says the same thing.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/13/2014 4:20:16 PM EDT
[#10]
I wouldn't trust on ANY of them using that bullet. They change their primer/bullet/powder/case whenever it suits them to keep costs down. They're not concerned with terminal performance at all.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/14/2014 4:34:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't trust on ANY of them using that bullet. They change their primer/bullet/powder/case whenever it suits them to keep costs down. They're not concerned with terminal performance at all. +1 Yeah unfortunately it seems like there is zero consistency these days. Seems like one manufacturer could offer it and get a bit more sales than the rest, but I suppose last offerings must not have sold well enough for them to spend the extra money. This is one of the reasons I haven't bought x39 in years. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/14/2014 9:29:02 PM EDT
[#12]
99.9% of consumers don't care about terminal performance and wouldn't know 8M3 from the man in the moon. It's probably not worth it for them. Too bad though...
[ETA] If you want reliable terminal performance, buy something with the Hornady SST. More expensive, but just buy a box every once in a while and you'll start building up a little stockpile eventually. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/15/2014 12:20:33 PM EDT
[#13]
From the various amateur testers on YouTube, it looks like pretty much any Russian soft point will expand and fragment well and still make minimum penetration. I intend to test Tula 154 gr soft point and 123 gr soft point soon. Here's my 7.62x39mm SST test.
Mrgunsngear's test of 7.62x39mm SST:
Zhukov, what do you think of the Winchester PDX1 for defense? I think it's certainly better than FMJ but at that price point I think that SST is a far better choice.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/1/2014 7:02:08 PM EDT
[#14]
So I tested that Tula 124 gr HP today but the bullet yawed sharply and exited the block at around the 11" mark. The good news is that it left a few fragments behinds so I think it might have been coming apart. I'll probably post pics Monday. It definitely merits retesting but it may be hard to keep it in the block.
ETA: Here's rough video of the test. I won't be posting a proper test video for this one unless and until I can get a bullet to stay in the block. Link for phones
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/2/2014 3:30:56 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Zhukov, what do you think of the Winchester PDX1 for defense? I think it's certainly better than FMJ but at that price point I think that SST is a far better choice.  http://youtu.be/6IvIpwDGa_sHard to tell what happened on that first shot - the bullet penetrated way too deep. The second one looked alright, but I agree: The Hornady stuff looks more consistent. I bought a couple of boxes of the Zombie Max ammo since it's loaded with the SST bullet. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/2/2014 3:32:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I tested that Tula 124 gr HP today but the bullet yawed sharply and exited the block at around the 11" mark. The good news is that it left a few fragments behinds so I think it might have been coming apart. I'll probably post pics Monday. It definitely merits retesting but it may be hard to keep it in the block. I don't think it fragmented. If it did, it would have done so shortly after entering the block. The fact that it yawed and existed the block sounds like what the M43 bullet (FMJ) does. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/2/2014 8:57:38 PM EDT
[#17]
So you think the fragments I saw were just squeezed out the base? It would make sense. I'll see if I can get some pics up tomorrow and maybe it will be clear enough that you would care to speculate.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/2/2014 9:43:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you think the fragments I saw were just squeezed out the base? It would make sense. I'll see if I can get some pics up tomorrow and maybe it will be clear enough that you would care to speculate. More than likely. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/3/2014 4:45:08 AM EDT
[#19]
I have 122gr tulammo that has the prefail cuts in the HP. It fragments to all hell. I can post the lot number tuesday. Its fairly recent within the last 6months old.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/3/2014 12:14:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Here's the photo of the gelatin. There were numerous very small fragments and one larger fragment that measured about 0.1" x 0.2". Care to speculate, Zhukov? I don't think I'm alone in saying that your opinion is highly regarded around here.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/3/2014 10:11:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Yeah, that doesn't look like fragmentation to me. If the bullet flattens, quite a bit of lead can be squeezed out of the base. I've shot some Russian stuff into water where you had definite metal fragments, not just a little lead.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/3/2014 10:13:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Thank you, sir. Not surprising, based on what we've seen in other testing.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2014 12:31:46 AM EDT
[#23]
I will admit i didnt use gel, but gallon milk jugs of water, and of the fragments i found they were large, very jagged and most were about 1/3rd- 1/2 the length of the bullet. I am not at all trying to say it is consistent everytime, just that the 5 or so i tried all had similar fragmentation. BUT the point of HPs is expansion NOT fragmentation.
I should say all of the fragments were from the copper jacket and not the lead core. Bluefalcon you asked about pdx1 for home defense, have you ever consitered east getman nylon core training ammo? It is still lethal but over penetration isnt as bad of an issue. It comes in 10 round sealed plastic packs. Its still out there some places, see it at gun shows alot. And was a wts add for 250rds for about 100$. It is collectorish ammo but still reasonably priced compared to pdx1. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2014 1:12:49 AM EDT
[#24]
What were you testing in water? I think water is a good way to determine how and how much a bullet can upset. The penetration in water doesn't seem to have a linear relationship with gelatin or tissue, though. I could be wrong on that point. It wouldn't be the first time.
Hollow point rifle bullets are generally not designed to expand. The open tip is a biproduct of the manufacturing process. They often fragment more readily than FMJ. I doubt the nylon core bullets would penetrate deeply enough to be suitable for defense. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2014 5:54:22 AM EDT
[#25]
I was just testing to see how the 122gr tulammo HPs with the prefail cuts would perform. They fragmented for me. All i coukd recover was large fragments of the jackets but no lead.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwsOO7TF0bA Heres a good vid of the nylon core training anmo in action i think it woukd do a pretty good job. It may still penetrate too much inside of a house to be relatively safe for HD. I have a few packs of it. Idk if id ever actually use it or not its more of a novelty/collector item but i would still feel confident shooting at a threat not wearing body armor. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2014 9:03:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Keep in mind that a lot of steel-jacketed ammo can fragment, but only a near muzzle velocities. As soon as the bullet loses some velocity it won't fragment anymore.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2014 2:07:06 PM EDT
[#27]
I said id post the lot number for the tulammo 122gr HPs with the cuts, here it is
B15 |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/6/2014 9:31:08 AM EDT
[#28]
FWIW- I just received 1K of WPA Military Classic 124gr. HP from Sportsmans Guide and it is NOT loaded with 8M3. I purchased it because I needed range fodder but was hoping for 8M3 as a bonus. Like I said, I bought it because I need something for the range so I'm still good.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/6/2014 12:20:52 PM EDT
[#29]
I remember back in the day (early aughts, I think) the black box Wolf HP had a very deep cavity. Inserting a paper clip, it seemed at least a quarter inch deep. It was much larger than the hole on Silver/Brown Bear at the time. I've often wondered whether that point would shear off and allow the core to fragment. I don't have any left, though.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/7/2014 1:09:05 AM EDT
[#30]
One difference i have seen is that the 8m3 is that the copper plating on the rounds looks like it was done after the opening was cut or formed. The non 8m3 stuff looks like the tip was cut off after the plating was added, so you can see a bit of the steel jacket around the tip. The 8m3 I got a few years ago was Wolf MC with the paper wrap inside the box, but the newer stuff with same packaging was not 8m3.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2014 11:24:57 PM EDT
[#31]
What would a 1000 round case of this Wolf Military Classic with the 8M3 bullet be worth???
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2014 11:45:47 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What would a 1000 round case of this Wolf Military Classic with the 8M3 bullet be worth??? Probably not a lot more than regular AK ammo - not many people would appreciate the difference. If you're lucky, someone might shell out a premium but I wouldn't count on it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/21/2014 11:24:34 AM EDT
[#33]
I have some old wolf military classic 124g JHP for bluefalcon to test
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/21/2014 12:05:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Thank you for the offer, sir. I look forward to testing it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2014 6:08:25 PM EDT
[#35]
I tested some older Wolf 122 gr HP today and it came apart pretty dramatically. I'll post more details later.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/30/2014 1:38:55 AM EDT
[#36]
122 gr Wolf HP fired from 10.5" barrel Zastava M92 PAP into 10% gelatin. NOTE: The gelatin failed calibration, due to being out of the temperature range. BB calibration result was 592.5 fps, 4.5". Impact velocity: 2,206 fps Penetration: N/A Retained weight: 108.1 gr Max expansion: 0.921" Min expansion: 0.478" As you can see in the image of the jacket recovered from the third jug, this bullet does have cuts on the inside of the jacket. I tested a TulAmmo 124 gr HP recently that also had the cuts but did not fragment. This video actually represents three shots. One into water and two into gelatin. In each shot, it appeared to fragment substantially. Because the BB calibration was out of spec, I can't speculate on the penetration depth, but there is no reason to believe that it wouldn't have been at least 13" based on the recovered weight of the projectile. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/30/2014 11:54:48 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
[img][/url] 122 gr Wolf HP fired from 10.5" barrel Zastava M92 PAP into 10% gelatin. NOTE: The gelatin failed calibration, due to being out of the temperature range. BB calibration result was 592.5 fps, 4.5". Impact velocity: 2,206 fps Penetration: N/A Retained weight: 108.1 gr Max expansion: 0.921" Min expansion: 0.478" As you can see in the image of the jacket recovered from the third jug, this bullet does have cuts on the inside of the jacket. I tested a TulAmmo 124 gr HP recently that also had the cuts but did not fragment. This video actually represents three shots. One into water and two into gelatin. In each shot, it appeared to fragment substantially. Because the BB calibration was out of spec, I can't speculate on the penetration depth, but there is no reason to believe that it wouldn't have been at least 13" based on the recovered weight of the projectile. I checked my records today and this was the (Old stock/'09) stuff that SGAmmo was selling last May for $219/case. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
