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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/14/2005 5:17:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 6:33:08 PM EDT by C-4]
My parents are originally from Hungary and I've always been intrigued by Soviet block firearms. I recently purchased a CZ-52 pistol and have done some reading about it. I've come across a lot of threads that tout its soft body armor piercing capability but I would like to see what others have to say about this.

What I've found seems rather underwhelming for 85gr. FMJ lead-core ammo, although I didn't buy the pistol so I could shoot criminals wearing level IIA vests. That's what AR's (ETA: and AK's) are for.

The following is what I've found on the internet (big qualification) and I'm simply interested in people's comments about it:

1) According to Body Armor #1:

Level III-A
(24-28 Layers of Kevlar)

Caliber-----------Bullet Weight (Grains)---Bullet Type-----Barrel (Inches)----Velocity (Feet/Second)
7.62x25 Tokarev-----------86---------------------AP-----------------?---------------------------1440

This does back up the body armor piercing capability, but since AP ammo is not legally available in the U.S. in handgun calibers it is a moot point.

2) According to Body Armor #2,

Level II
(20-24 Layers of Kevlar)

Caliber--------Bullet Weight (Grains)----Bullet Type----Barrel (Inches)------Velocity (Feet/Second)
7.62X25--------------------85gr.----------------VSP FMJ----------24------------------------------1250

I'm not sure where they got the 24" barrel. Since it is a British site I thought maybe it is in cm, but it clearly shows that it is in inches. I don't know of any rifles that shoot the 7.62X25mm cartridge, but I'm sure there are some. I thought maybe the CZ/VZ-52 but according to this it is chambered in either 7.62 x 45mm M52 cartridge or 7.62 x 39 mm M43.

ETA: I'm not sure why the velocity was so low with such a long barrel.

The submachine guns chambered in 7.62X25mm have much shorter barrels. An example is the Klin-2:



Klin-2


The Klin-2 was designed by Victor kalashnikov and Alexey Dragunov, the sons of the two most notable Russian smallarms designers. The weapon utilizes a modified version of the AK-108s balanced recoil system which is reported to make the high rate of fire very controlable. 7.62x25mm is best known for it's use in the TT-33 Tokarev, but was chosen for the Kiln-2 because the terminal ballistics and armor penetration are superior to the 9x18mm and 9x19mm.



3) According to Body Armor #3:

Level III-A+ (not sure what the "+" means)
(24-28 Layers of Kevlar)

Caliber-----------Bullet Weight (Grains)---Bullet Type-----Barrel (Inches)----Velocity (Feet/Second)
7.62x25 Tokarev--------------?---------------'steel jacket'----------?----------------------1443 (440m/s)

I'm not sure if they truly mean a copper gilding steel jacket or steel-core (AP), but I'm guessing the former.

There are other sites that give even more incomplete descriptions such as only describing the bullet as '7.62X25 Tokarev'.

Comments?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 9:23:17 PM EDT
Several years ago, when these terrible cop-killer gun came out, we tested one against an old III-A vest made by ABA. The rounds we used were the copper-washed Chinese ones that came in a paper box. The vest stopped them cold.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 9:27:20 PM EDT
I want a CZ-52 with a .22 Reed Express barrel. 7.62x25 necked down to .22.

It eats the FN 5.7 for breakfast.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:20:57 PM EDT
Ok, from what I have been able to gather on the mysterious 7.62x25 No 1 there are a few different types

Bulgarians made a pistol and a submachinegun round loaded to different pressures and velocities- I don't have any data on these I have used both out of a PPSH-41 and there is a difference but I did'nt have a chronograph. on the box or packet is will say in cyrillic Pistolet or Automat

Russia I am usure of if they had two different types or not-I believe they did.

China, all I have ever seen is pistol ammo.- I want to sy between 1300-1450 fps been awhile since I can remember the exact numbers.

Czechoslovakians made all their ammo hot that we checked we clocked it at about 1600 fps if memory serves. Not safe for any pistols but the CZ 52 that I am aware of.

I remeber reading awhile back in a SOF mag that you needed to have a rating for 7.62x25 on your vest to stop this round.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:49:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KMFDM:
Ok, from what I have been able to gather on the mysterious 7.62x25 No 1 there are a few different types
etc...
Czechoslovakians made all their ammo hot that we checked we clocked it at about 1600 fps if memory serves. Not safe for any pistols but the CZ 52 that I am aware of.

I remeber reading awhile back in a SOF mag that you needed to have a rating for 7.62x25 on your vest to stop this round.



Thanks for the info. Was the Czech ammo S&B or military surplus SMG? I've shot only the Czech S&B and Portuguese FNM. Both are said to be around 1600fps, but I've never chronographed it either. I know over on gunboards.com in the CZ forum that people have chronographed the S&B around that velocity. These are, of course, both lead-core ammo and I think it makes a huge difference as far as vest-penetrating capability.

We still don't have any info that would indicate that the ammo we have available and is safe to shoot in a CZ-52 pistol would require any more than level II. So it could only go through a level I vest. You might get more velocity with some of the Yugo or other SMG ammo but I don't think that is safe in the pistol.

Anyone else?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:18:23 AM EDT
S&B we used was steel cored surplus probably for SMG but the pistol (CZ52) was designed to use SMG ammo for ease of logistics and it is a pretty tough little gun. When I get back to the real world I have a few vests I want to shoot and see what it really does. I know from my CZ that the SMG ammo is pretty much right on at 25m but the chinese stuff is quite low.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:45:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KMFDM:
S&B we used was steel cored surplus probably for SMG but the pistol (CZ52) was designed to use SMG ammo for ease of logistics and it is a pretty tough little gun. When I get back to the real world I have a few vests I want to shoot and see what it really does. I know from my CZ that the SMG ammo is pretty much right on at 25m but the chinese stuff is quite low.



I don't know when you get back, but I'm sure many of us would be interested in seeing results against some vests. It would be good to know for certain what the pistols capabilities are with commercial Czech or Portuguese ammo vs. the different vests. I'd be glad to send you some ammo for testing, just send me an IM or email.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:41:28 PM EDT
It'll be a bit before I get back, but I'll keep you in mind-I've wanted to do this for some time now, myself
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