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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/26/2003 6:36:00 PM EDT
It must have been a couple months ago, but there were some posts/information on the Siaga .308 conversion, in addition to MRW's info on the 7.62-39 project. In the topic I am refering to, there were photos of the trigger group, traced with red, showing some differences in the trigger mechanisms. There was also a list of the needed parts (and sources), with the rational behind needing more US parts with the .308 Saiga than for the 7.62 Saiga conversion... Is that info or post still available somewhere? If so, please advise... Thanks!
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 7:50:35 PM EDT
that would be great. i too am egarly awaiting the link to this info. i keep staring at my .308 saiga. theres deffinatly some diferences in reciver. im pretty handy with this type of stuff. man, the ak conversion along with m-14 mags would be a fun project
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 9:38:38 AM EDT
i just bought a membership. when i get it ill serch those old posts out and link to them here. hopfuly this time they will get stickyed
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 11:07:32 AM EDT
I think that was over on ak47.nuts. If you want to, go over to that site and search for posts by "Fredness" I believe

hope this helps!

Link Posted: 6/29/2003 3:50:36 PM EDT
im in the procces of registering over there now so i can search. but i looked for a long time and didnt see any good pictured posts on the .308 conversion
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 6:06:38 PM EDT
here ya go!

rogueperformance.com/AK.html


BTW, you owe me an hour
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 6:34:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2003 6:45:46 PM EDT by ryan163]
hah i was just coming to post the same findings. lol it was hard to find. ever one of freds posts keep talking about the "www". took me forever to figure out what he was talking about. the conversion sounds good. might be some spiting and whittling but theres three of us here ready to do it.

one thing id like to adress is the fact that people are having mixed results on triggers/hammers. i think my .308 has the bottom plate(thing covering the ak triger hole) atached diferently. mine has a rivet at the front and one at the rear also holding the rear of the triger guard. then instead of a center rivet, i have two spot welds side by side just in front of the trigger. what do you guys have?

also it seems we are stuck with these magizines for now. although they can be modified to hold up to ten rounds. my barrel is severly hot after 8 rounds anyhow.

and it seems we will need 6 parts to be legal.
-hammer
-trigger
-diconector
-buttstock
what else will fit and work?
gas piston?
what did hesse do?
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 7:13:17 PM EDT
I don't own a saiga 308 but would if it could get to a 20rd mag. I've seen several posts on using cetme mags, that they say that the three lug bolt feeds the round, but there is no more postings on why they don't use them in there conv. It seems that no one wants to state how far they get before they give up. Could someone post what the hang up is. If the amg fits and strips the lock in would be simple.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:56:34 AM EDT
another US part is the pistol grip.

That's all I have in mine, the 3 pieces of the FCG, the buttstock and the pistol grip.

Where did you see that we needed 6 parts?

All we have to do is make sure there are only 10 imported parts in the gun based on the BATF list of parts.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 12:33:29 PM EDT
on freds web site he states that the .308 and .410 need 6 us parts added and only 5 for the 7.62 and 223. im not sure about that and i dont understand what would make the .308 any different than the 223.
ive got to get it right because this will be my deer hunting rifle. who do you contact to ask on a state to state basis?

any of you guys have a stubern front sight post? i cant turn mine to lower the point of impact. the thing is froze right up
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 7:38:35 PM EDT
Thanks for the information and the link to the rogueperformance site.

I think I can answer ryan163's question on the differences between the 7.62-39 saiga and the .308 siaga... If you review the rogueperformance site carefully, he notes that the .308 saiga is based on a different action than the 7.62-39 saiga. This different action includes a sear (part #13 on his list) that is not part of the 7.62-39 saiga. Since there is no US-made part available to use, another US-made part must be used somewhere else in the conversion to make up for the imported sear necessary in the .308 saiga. Hence, the extra US-made part needed for the .308 saiga over and above those needed for the 7.62-39 saiga conversions.

HOWEVER, when reviewing this information, I created another question myself... I would like someone (MRW?) to specify what the 10 imported parts used in the conversion of a 7.62-39 saiga are. The way I see the 922(r) section (c) parts list break down is as follows... Starting with the 7.62-39 saiga, the 10 imported (original saiga) parts easiest to use for a conversion are (and please correct me!)
1: Receiver
2: Barrel
3: Mounting Block / Trunion
4: Bolt
5: Bolt Carrier
6: Trigger Housing
7: Gas piston
8: Magazine Bodies
9: Magazine Followers
10: Magazine Floorplates
And, the necessary US-made parts to complete a functioning AK are:
11: Trigger
12: Hammer
13: Disconnector
14: Buttstock
15: Pistol Grip
16: Forearm / Handguard
17: Muzzle Attachment (if used at all...)
So, how can the Forearm / Handguard in a legal conversion remain the original saiga imported part? What fact am I missing (or what did I overlook) to have come to this conclusion??? Is there some part in my 1-10 list that is not actually required for an AK to work?

If we get this straight, then we can more easily tackle the .308 saiga...
Again, thanks for the info.

Link Posted: 7/1/2003 8:49:31 PM EDT
I copied this off the web somewhere and put it into a word document, so here ya go:

This is a list of the parts that apply specifically to AK's.

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or
stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Mounting blocks (trunnions)
(4) Muzzle attachments
(5) Bolts
(6) Bolt carriers
(7) Gas pistons
(8) Triggers
(9) Hammers
(10) Disconnectors
(11) Buttstocks
(12) Pistol grips
(13) Forearm handguards
(14) Magazine body
(15) Followers
(16) Floorplates

A milled rifle without a muzzle brake has 14 parts because it doesn't have a trunnion. The part that serves that purpose is built in to the reciever.

With a muzzle brake makes 15.

A stamped rifle without a muzzle brake has 15 parts. Pesky trunnion. (Saiga's are stamped)

With a brake 16.

To get that pistol grip on there you have to change the status of the rifle from that of an imported product,(e-vil assault rifle), to that of a domestically manufactured product,(modern sporting rifle).

A domestically produced sporting rifle may have no more than 10 imported parts for it to still be considered domestic. So, depending on whether you have a milled or stamped rifle and whether or not it has a muzzle brake, you will have to replace up to 6 of the imported parts with made in the USA ones.

That's a key phrase there. You can't just slap on some US doohickies and go. You have to replace parts that were on the original rifle with made in the US ones. That's why it works in our favor that the butthole stocks are counted as 2 parts during the parts count for importation. If it were only counted as one part you would be adding another part to the total count when you put a pistol grip on. It could easily be offset by adding a US pistol grip, just like a made in the US muzzle brake will, in effect, offset itself but it would add an additional twist to an already convoluted subject.

Replacement US parts include:

Buttstock 1
pistol grip 1
upper and lower handguards 1
muzzle brake 1
gas piston 1
hammer 1
trigger 1
disconnector 1
magazine body 1
follower 1
floorplate 1
reciever 1

Please note that the upper and lower handguards are counted as one part. If you only replace one or the other it will not be counted as a US part regardless of what is molded into the plastic. Both the upper and lower must be of US manufacture for it to count toward changing it's import status. Also, a muzzle nut is not an attachment if it is secured properly but a brake is an attachment regardless of whether or not there are threads holding it on.

No. Not all of the above parts are made for every AK variety out there, 5.45 followers, floorplates for waffle mags, etc.. Nor can all of the listed parts be used easily. The work to replace the the reciever of a MISR with a US one would not be cost effective,(not to mention that some might question the ... wisdom of a move like that).

First find out what number of parts you need to replace.
Then, find out how many different US parts are made for the model rifle you have.
Choose the correct number of parts from that list and install them properly on your rifle.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 8:51:37 PM EDT
and also:


1989 was the actual IMPORT cutoff date to import complete foreign made weapons that were semi versions of automatic firearms, AND took a high capacity magazine.
Pres. Bush Sr told the ATF to do a 'sporting" review on them, and they hashed a BS "study" out to say they weren’t sporting.... instant import BAN.

This was an IMPORT ban, not an assembly ban. If they imported a post 89 AK, it had to have NONE of the following:
attached bipod
Bayo-lug
night sights
grenade launcher
flashhider or threaded muzzle
folding or telescoping stock
pistolgrip.

This is why they invented thumbhole stocks for the AKs and such. After the gun came in though, it was 100% LEGAL to add all those features back on, so in 11/90, Section 922(r) came into law, which prohibited ASSEMBLY of a firearm that is banned from importation, if it contained MORE than 10 imported parts, and they gave a specific parts list. Between 11/90-now, if you can make enough US parts to replace bits and pieces of the imported firearm, so the imported parts content fell below 10, the gun is considered domestic, and, at least before the AW Ban of 1994, you could have added those banned features back on.

Not anymore, at least not for civvies.

On Sept 13th 1994 the AW Ban took place. this went after the domestic stuff primarily, but they also listed models of guns by name, along with a definition of "Assault Weapon"(which is BS, it banned cosmetic features mostly)
here is that law:
(30) The term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means --

(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any
caliber, known as --

(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all

models);

(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;

(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);

(iv) Colt AR-15;

(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;

(vii) Steyr AUG;

(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and

(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street

Sweeper and Striker 12;

(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable

magazine and has at least 2 of --

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of

the weapon;

(iii) a bayonet mount;

(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a

flash suppressor; and

(v) a grenade launcher;

(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable

magazine and has at least 2 of --

(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the

pistol grip;

(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash

suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely

encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with
the non-trigger hand without being burned;

(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is

unloaded; and

(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of --

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of

the weapon;

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

What this boils down to is this:
if you want a preban AK, its pretty much going to be PRE-89 if you want to be SURE. Everyone can dispute this all they want, with a post 89 gun that someone put the stuff on before 11/90. I wouldn't have it, due to the fact that its a 'gray area", and that area the courts put the burden on YOU to prove its legal, they go on the assumption that your gun is illegal.

So, try to verify the provenance of the gun if you can, because civilian:
Possession of a post 94 AW is a felony
Manufacturing a postban AW is a felony
Manufacture of a post 11/90 gun without US parts is a felony.
Possession of the same gun is not a felony, but the gun is contraband.

Pain in the ass isn’t it?

Link Posted: 7/1/2003 8:53:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 8:55:30 PM EDT by MRW]
PS, I have all of the currently available Saiga rifles and I do not know of any "extra" part that the 308 has over the 223/762 AFTER CONVERSION, which is what we're talking about anyway.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:51:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 1:52:56 PM EDT by ryan163]
ah i see now. i had to read it a bunch but this is my take.
when you mod the gun it is no longer a saiga.
it becomes a post ban assult rifle and as such it can not have more than 10 imported parts. so then the list for our "NEW" gun witch we made is as follows with the * showing the ten parts we have. let me know if im confused. thanks for all your help!


(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or
stampings *
(2) Barrels *
(3) Mounting blocks (trunnions)*
(4) Muzzle attachments X
(5) Bolts *
(6) Bolt carriers*
(7) Gas pistons *
(8) Triggers
(9) Hammers
(10) Disconnectors
(11) Buttstocks
(12) Pistol grips
(13) Forearm handguards*
(14) Magazine body *
(15) Followers *
(16) Floorplates*
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:41:29 PM EDT
Thanks! Looks like I counted the trigger housing (sheet metal trigger guard) as a part when it was not necessary (part #6 in reply of 6/30/2003 11:38:35 PM). That is how my count was one more than necessary...

Link Posted: 7/3/2003 8:40:34 PM EDT
alrighty...whos ordering what from where?

im gonna go with the gorden double hook trigger from tapco and the black butstock and grip from k-var. that kvar stock on mrws rifle looks great
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 8:57:37 PM EDT
Thanks! Marty likes it. Hi Marty!

I actually like the standard stock length, and the Kvar stock is longer. I'm patiently waiting for a standard length US stock...

Link Posted: 7/17/2003 8:06:03 PM EDT
welp im nearly done my conversion. the 308 seems to be a little harder to mod then the 7.62. over all i am amazed at how long of a prodject it is. but i like that. it looks like a million bucks though.

-the hammer
the gordens hammer will need to be modified heavily by removing material. basicaly make it look exaclty like the saiga one in every dimension.

-the safety
will not work when your done. material will needs to be added. might be easyier to just get an ak safty

ive got some more work to do yet, but ill report back next with range reports:)

Link Posted: 7/20/2003 3:32:37 PM EDT
well ive got the final touches on her and brought her to the range. the gun works flawlessly as expected. and the new trigger is light years ahead of the siaga unit
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 12:28:24 PM EDT
post a pic!
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 6:00:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 6:01:24 AM EDT by ryan163]
ok i got a few of my pics finaly. hopefully you can make out where the square hole for the pistol grip goes, where to drill the hole for the trigger gaurd and some idea of how much machining goes into the hammer



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