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Posted: 8/16/2004 4:21:52 AM EDT
Ok, me and my buddy go this guys ranch about once or twice a month to ride around in the back of his pickup and blast bunnies. Hes got a real nice browning? automatic 12gauge, but it only holds 3 shells :/ so its a pain in the ass to reload while the guys in the cab are like "wtf why arent you shooting?!"

So I was looking on gunsamerica and came across this

Incase the link doesn't work, its a 12 ga Saiga AK47 Shotgun, Russian-made. $279. The 5 shell clip is what got my attention.

Is this worth getting? I noticed mags are 25 bucks each, so no joy there :/ but still...

Any info on this gun would be much appreciated.
Suggestions on any other high capacity shotguns are also desired.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:13:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 6:14:50 AM EDT by RS39]
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:26:53 AM EDT
Most tube-fed shotties come with a little dowel inside thier tube, because IIRC, many states limit duck-hunters to 3 rounds.

As for the Saiga choke, How long is the choke? Saiga has a 19" BBL, if it's under or around one inch, you can cut it off and still be of legal bbl length.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:09:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:37:37 AM EDT
They are $199 at CDNN. 8rd mags are available for these guns as well.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:46:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 11:46:52 AM EDT by Dave_A]
1) They can be re-choked... I have heard of gunsmiths modifying them to take Rem-Choke tubes...

2) The going rate is around $200-250 for one, depending on chambering (12ga is more than .410, obv)...

3) Post AWB you can have a smith do a conversion, and make your gun 'evil' with folding stock & pistol grip again

4) Due to russian gun laws, they are made with 19" bbls...
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 2:48:37 PM EDT
You can't convert to pistol grip/regular stock after the ban unless you get the parts count correct. Otherwise it would be in an unimportable condition. So you have to add the parts to make it domestic. Same rules that applies to regular AKs, and all other imported weapons. Rig an RSA trigger group, US buttstock, US pistol grip, then see where you are. I'm not sure on the total number of necessary parts.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 4:45:12 PM EDT
thanks for the info guys!

Anybody out there know the correct number of US made parts necessary to make it legal? Link to law anyone?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:29:44 PM EDT
Should be the same 5 parts (w/o a muzzle brake) as any AK, nothing is different on the shotguns I don't think...

I want to know if we'll really get the 8 rnd mags, or if there will be something that blocks those (being Russian, hi-caps are a no-no, at what point are shotgun mags limited?)
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:59:27 PM EDT
So would it technically be legal if I made my own wooden stock, pistol grip, and handguard (3 peices there), added a US-made trigger group(4th), and fashioned my own magazines for it for the fifth part?

I read somewhere that the ATF stated in an opinion letter that 8 round magazines were illegal to use with it because it violated the 5 round fixed mag rule.

Yeah, I know it says "fixed" but fixed means whatever the ATF says it means.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:15:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 8:18:09 PM EDT by TXN]
Actually, the parts of the FCG count seperately: trigger, hammer and disconnecter = 3 parts.
Add a buttstock and PG and you should be there.

There is a thread on the parts count in the AK ABCs forum. The parts count question
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:20:08 PM EDT
I found this at a saiga 12 site forum


27 CFR section 178.39

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle, or any
shotgun, using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in
paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is
prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not
being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
sporting purposes.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or
distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United
States or any department or agency thereof, or to any
State or any department, agency, or political subdivision
thereof; or

(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the
purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the
Director under the provisions of section 178.151; or

(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been
imported into or assembled in the United States prior to
November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such
firearm.

© For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or
stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates



so the way I read that... i actually need 10 US made parts to replace 10 of the 20 total counted Russian parts. well 9 not counting muzzle attachments.

any help on info where I can find 9 parts to replace items from this list would be much appreciated.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 6:16:05 PM EDT
Not all of those parts are on the Saiga. You'll only need to replace five.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:17:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
So would it technically be legal if I made my own wooden stock, pistol grip, and handguard (3 peices there), added a US-made trigger group(4th), and fashioned my own magazines for it for the fifth part?

I read somewhere that the ATF stated in an opinion letter that 8 round magazines were illegal to use with it because it violated the 5 round fixed mag rule.

Yeah, I know it says "fixed" but fixed means whatever the ATF says it means.



If a shotty has a detachable mag the mag can not hold more than 5 rounds(it;s an AWB thing) if and only if it's semiauto. Same with a tube fed. The tub can not hold more than 5 rounds if the shotty is semi auto. After the ban dies, fuck make a 10rd mag if you want, hell devise and buiold a 25rd drum if you want. Once the AWB is bye-bye there are no mag restrictions.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:33:04 AM EDT
Here is your list as it applies to the Saiga (rifles for sure, someone correct me with the shotguns).
I crossed out the things that do not exist in the Saiga. Muzzle attachments (#5) usually refer to brakes, flash hiders, ect., but I don't know about removable chokes.

(1) receiver
(2) Barrel
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

That's either 15 or 16 parts total, depending on #5. now replace 5 ( or 6) of them and you should be 922r compliant.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:49:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
So would it technically be legal if I made my own wooden stock, pistol grip, and handguard (3 peices there), added a US-made trigger group(4th), and fashioned my own magazines for it for the fifth part?

I read somewhere that the ATF stated in an opinion letter that 8 round magazines were illegal to use with it because it violated the 5 round fixed mag rule.

Yeah, I know it says "fixed" but fixed means whatever the ATF says it means.



If a shotty has a detachable mag the mag can not hold more than 5 rounds(it;s an AWB thing) if and only if it's semiauto. Same with a tube fed. The tub can not hold more than 5 rounds if the shotty is semi auto. After the ban dies, fuck make a 10rd mag if you want, hell devise and buiold a 25rd drum if you want. Once the AWB is bye-bye there are no mag restrictions.



The clear wording of the law lists it as a FIXED magazine capable of holding no more than 5 rounds. However, because the ATF has assumed the power to legislate, they decided to include DETACHEABLE mags in that.

However, you could legally hold more than 5 rounds in the gun if you disabled it from accepting a detachable magazine since the only reason you can't hold more than 5 rounds and have a detachable magazine is that it consitutes 2 "Assault Shotgun" features. Having 1 evil feature is perfectly legal.



Here is your list as it applies to the Saiga (rifles for sure, someone correct me with the shotguns).
I crossed out the things that do not exist in the Saiga. Muzzle attachments (#5) usually refer to brakes, flash hiders, ect., but I don't know about removable chokes.

(1) receiver
(2) Barrel
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

That's either 15 or 16 parts total, depending on #5. now replace 5 ( or 6) of them and you should be 922r compliant.



Hey thanks TXN. I found a manual for the SAIGA 12 at www.eaacorp.com/ but I couldn't see where it had a disconnector listed as a part. What is the disconnector anyways?

And from what I've read up on about the last 3 parts, simply using a domesticly made mag would fulfill that requirement, correct? Replacing the Forearm is easy enough right? The pistol grip will be a domestic addition too, as will the buttstock.

So technically could I be legal just by using a domestic mag and adding a domestic forearm, pistol grip, and buttstock? That brings the total evil parts to 9(not including the muzzle attachment).

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