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Posted: 11/1/2009 3:37:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 3:38:51 PM EST by Tony44]
Probably going to send K-Var $500 for something. Either the 7.62 AK or the 410 converted shotgun. I have a pair of AKs s and thought the 410 shotgun would be neat for home defense (close quarters). What's your opinion on that? How cheap are the 410 mags? What would be a good 410 load?

Thanks for your input.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:44:14 PM EST
I'd recommend the 12 or 20 gauge.
.410 bore is pretty pricey ammo, minimum $8 per box of 25 for birdshot, which is NOT good for home defense.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:49:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rick_NE:
I'd recommend the 12 or 20 gauge.
.410 bore is pretty pricey ammo, minimum $8 per box of 25 for birdshot, which is NOT good for home defense.


I agree on that point. I just thought a 410 in the Ak package with a 10rd or 15rd mag would be a good setup for a small house/condo. Low recoil, low chance of over penetration, quick follow up shots, etc
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 6:12:18 PM EST
.410 is not adequate for HD.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 7:00:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By azoutdoorsman:
.410 is not adequate for HD.


A .410 slug carries has more energy then .357 Magnum - which certainly would be sufficient for home defense.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 7:07:26 PM EST
Which also means it will penetrate more than a .357...Unless I lived in a rural setting with no close neighbors, and no children, I would never use a slug for home defense in a shotgun. They over penetrate...period. If I was going to use a shotgun for home defense I would use bird shot. It may not be the most lethal round but it will not penetrate much. You would be better off with .223 TAP or something than a shotgun slug.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 7:59:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
Which also means it will penetrate more than a .357...Unless I lived in a rural setting with no close neighbors, and no children, I would never use a slug for home defense in a shotgun. They over penetrate...period. If I was going to use a shotgun for home defense I would use bird shot. It may not be the most lethal round but it will not penetrate much. You would be better off with .223 TAP or something than a shotgun slug.


Good luck in court when the prosecution nails you for attempting to wound when using "deadly" force ............
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 9:14:06 PM EST
These are great for home defense as long as you are defending your home from snakes.

Warrant
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 3:20:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By space_weazel:
Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
Which also means it will penetrate more than a .357...Unless I lived in a rural setting with no close neighbors, and no children, I would never use a slug for home defense in a shotgun. They over penetrate...period. If I was going to use a shotgun for home defense I would use bird shot. It may not be the most lethal round but it will not penetrate much. You would be better off with .223 TAP or something than a shotgun slug.


Good luck in court when the prosecution nails you for attempting to wound when using "deadly" force ............


no luck needed.....i don't live in libtard state.

Link Posted: 11/2/2009 3:40:24 AM EST
over penetration is over rated. Look for the deadliest load that will function reliably in your firearm and use it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 3:44:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 3:52:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 4:01:59 AM EST
If you're dead set on .410, I would look into the Safir Arms AT14 AR upper. As far as the Saigas go, the 20 or 12 would be a better buy, especially when you consider the price of ammo.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 4:44:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
Which also means it will penetrate more than a .357...Unless I lived in a rural setting with no close neighbors, and no children, I would never use a slug for home defense in a shotgun. They over penetrate...period. If I was going to use a shotgun for home defense I would use bird shot. It may not be the most lethal round but it will not penetrate much. You would be better off with .223 TAP or something than a shotgun slug.


Actually, it penetrates less.

Box'o'Truth is down at the moment, so I can't post a link. But yes, it penetrates less than necessary for a bullet to be effective at incapacitating a criminal. Believe it or not, the 00 buck pellets actually have better sectional density, though they are going slow enough that they aren't that great either.

Bottom line is that a .410 isn't a very good defensive caliber in any platform. 20 gauge has minimal recoil, and can be had in large enough shot sizes to be effective.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 5:28:06 AM EST
Birdshot - THE PREMIER HOME DEFENSE ROUND! Just ask the guy Cheney shot.

Some of you folks are unreachable...
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 5:49:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 5:55:55 AM EST
I am just going by videos I have seen....I have watched videos of a guy shooting home made interior walls, a 12ga. slug or 00 buck penetrated much more than a 5.56mm, and more than a 9mm. The 5.56 penetrated less, the video is on youtube somewhere.

That being said, I don't even own a shotgun so I will not be using it for self defense. My AR loaded with TAP is my HD weapon. I am also protected by the Castle Law or whatever. Good to live in a conservative state.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 6:05:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 6:06:04 AM EST by CavalierX]
12 gauge- since you are talking about HOME DEFENSE and man sized animals. Ballistic testing (ballistic gelatin) found that #4 shot was just about perfect. More pellets on target plue 9"+ penatration = more damage.

Lethality means hitting center mass and expedient multi system failure.

Link Posted: 11/2/2009 6:12:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Krater:
Originally Posted By azoutdoorsman:
.410 is not adequate for HD.


A .410 slug carries has more energy then .357 Magnum - which certainly would be sufficient for home defense.

I never understand why people can think that a round not sufficient to hunt a deer(where you have ample time to aim and choose where your ruond goes), is sufficent to protect the lives of you and your family in a stressful situation where you will most likely lose any fine motor skills, and just start pulling the trigger.

.410 is NOT A GOOD CHOICE FOR HOME DEFENSE. Will it work? Maybe. Is it in the top ten choices? Not even close, so why take that risk?
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 6:14:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:
Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
Which also means it will penetrate more than a .357...Unless I lived in a rural setting with no close neighbors, and no children, I would never use a slug for home defense in a shotgun. They over penetrate...period. If I was going to use a shotgun for home defense I would use bird shot. It may not be the most lethal round but it will not penetrate much. You would be better off with .223 TAP or something than a shotgun slug.


Actually, it penetrates less.

Box'o'Truth is down at the moment, so I can't post a link. But yes, it penetrates less than necessary for a bullet to be effective at incapacitating a criminal. Believe it or not, the 00 buck pellets actually have better sectional density, though they are going slow enough that they aren't that great either.

Bottom line is that a .410 isn't a very good defensive caliber in any platform. 20 gauge has minimal recoil, and can be had in large enough shot sizes to be effective.


Yep, that tiny little slug doesn't weigh anything, and is pretty much a hollow "U" shape, like all shotgun slugs. It's also dead-soft lead, so when it hits it flattens out and only penetrates a few inches. You'd be better off with a pistol round.

If you're going to use a .410 for home defense, you want to use buckshot. You'll only get 3-pellet buck in the Saiga.

Will it work? Yes...

Is it a good choice? No! There are much better options out there!

Countless little old ladies have successfully defended their homes with old single-shot .410 shotguns...will it work? Yeah, probably, it is a gun afterall...is it a good choice? NO! There are much better options out there.

Like a Saiga 20 or 12 gauge, with BUCKSHOT.

A compact semiautomatic carbine is pretty much your best bet.

Like others have said, all rounds that penetrate deep enough to reliably stop an attacker will penetrate several interior walls. That's physics. There are no magic bullets.


Damn, you pretty much summed up what I said and more, guess I should read the whole thread before responding
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 7:29:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 7:29:29 AM EST by Lazyshooter]
I think this 410 from K-Var, is meant to be more as a fun gun than anything else; sort of like the Marlin and Winchester lever action 410 shotguns.
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 10:50:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By CavalierX:
12 gauge- since you are talking about HOME DEFENSE and man sized animals. Ballistic testing (ballistic gelatin) found that #4 buckshot was just about perfect. More pellets on target plue 9"+ penatration = more damage.

Lethality means hitting center mass and expedient multi system failure.



Fixed it for you. #4 shot is a poor penetrator, #4 buck isn't great but some consider it acceptable for indoor use. #1 or #2 buck are the smallest pellet sizes which reliably penetrate 12 inches. Out past a few yards (in-the-home distance), it's 1 or 00 or go home.


Link Posted: 11/2/2009 1:47:57 PM EST
great article on shotgun defense ammo selection. doesn't even include .410 if that tells you anything.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm


12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.


Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.



20 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition Recommendations
We're unaware of any ammunition company who offers a 20 gauge shotshell that is loaded with #1 buckshot. The largest shot size commercially available that we know of is number 2 buck.


From a strict wound ballistics standpoint, we feel the Federal Classic 3-inch 20 gauge Magnum number 2 buckshot cartridge is the best choice. It contains 18 pellets of number 2 buckshot in a plastic shotcup with granulated plastic shot buffer.

Shot
Number
Pellet Diameter
(Inches)
Average Pellet
Weight (Grains)
4 .24 20.6
3 .25 23.4
2 .27 29.4
1 .30 40.0
0 .32 48.3
00 .33 53.8
000 .36 68.0



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