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Posted: 3/29/2012 10:47:06 AM EDT
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 4:38:33 PM EDT
Is the metal one 4.5?
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 5:21:55 PM EDT
there are some copies of the russian poly folding stock, are you sure that yours is not a copy
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 5:51:57 PM EDT
I sold it to him.

It's the real deal from Oleg at rusmilitary.com

Here's a pic:

Link Posted: 3/29/2012 6:13:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 7:50:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.


Im pretty sure the 84-94 sgl receivers are factory done and just assembled by arsenal.
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 8:06:59 PM EDT
If I read it right, when folded the the butt plate is missing the latch and is not locking? Is the butt plate tight against the plastic stock? You could try to remove the butt plate and sand or file a bit of plastic off the stock so the butt plate fits closer to the stock. This may move it in far enough to catch the latch.
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 9:25:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.


Im pretty sure the 84-94 sgl receivers are factory done and just assembled by arsenal.


Unless somehow Arsenal gets a free pass from the ATF, I don't see how they can get a Russian receiver preconfigured for the side folder. The only way it would have been imported would be as sporter rifles and not as parts which means no barrels and no receivers.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 5:47:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2012 5:59:29 AM EDT by Packman]
The metal one is 5.5mm as is the polymer. CPG2 hit the nail on the head. I took the metal butt plate off and it still hits the polymer stock above the notch. It seems to latch in the proper place on the metal one but is at the top of the latching point. I am not going to make a big deal out of it, because it is what is and I will not worry about it. The rifle shoots straight and fires everytime. Arsenal had no answers and did not call me back like promised, so I guess they don't care. I just wanted to hear from you'll what your thoughs were.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 6:14:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Packman:
The metal one is 5.5mm as is the polymer. CPG2 hit the nail on the head. I took the metal butt plate off and it still hits the polymer stock above the notch. It seems to latch in the proper place on the metal one but is at the top of the latching point. I am not going to make a big deal out of it, because it is what is and I will not worry about it. The rifle shoots straight and fires everytime. Arsenal had no answers and did not call me back like promised, so I guess they don't care. I just wanted to hear from you'll what your thoughs were.


I have noticed other Arsenal rifles with this problem, and it is the sole reason I won't buy one of their folders. It seems they are not installing the rear trunnions correctly on the new folders they are making. They are not cutting enough of an angle, which will cause the polymer folder latch to come up short on the hook at the fore end of the receiver. However, the metal one will still lock up because there is more surface area on the stock to hook onto. Basically, your rifle is out of spec.

FYI Arsenal does all modifications to standard receivers in-house, they do not get any from Russian with side folders already installed.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 7:41:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2012 7:46:20 AM EDT by Packman]
You are right mgwantob, that explains why the butt of the triangle metal folders appears to be kick up in the rear when extended. They cut the rear angle on the reciever wrong where the trunnion fits.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 8:43:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Packman:
You are right mgwantob, that explains why the butt of the triangle metal folders appears to be kick up in the rear when extended. They cut the rear angle on the reciever wrong where the trunnion fits.


I imagine you have already tried to contact Arsenal to warranty it? If they won't it is still fixable, though I wouldn't let anyone but InRange, Chris Butler, PoHF, or another pro builder touch it. All that has to be done it have the runnion removed, change the holes very slightly, and cut the angle better. Also, if you go this route I would add the pistol grip re-enfocement plate if it's not already there.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 9:00:16 AM EDT
Arsenal seems to have no interest in the problem as does K-var. Marc Krebs is a friend of mine and he has already said to ship it to him. I may do that or just shoot it like it is.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 9:08:03 AM EDT
Interesting, but that doesn't surprise me. Arsenal sometimes makes me think If you cruise through the various picture threads in the AK forums here, you will find more than a few folders that exhibit bad rear trunnion angle, and most of their owners don't notice it. Like you said, it will shoot fine... but it is just not "right"
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 11:10:44 AM EDT
Interesting read, I though folding stock were installed in Russia factory before importing them.

Now I am having second though about getting a folding stock model.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 5:55:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.


Im pretty sure the 84-94 sgl receivers are factory done and just assembled by arsenal.


Unless somehow Arsenal gets a free pass from the ATF, I don't see how they can get a Russian receiver preconfigured for the side folder. The only way it would have been imported would be as sporter rifles and not as parts which means no barrels and no receivers.


What I meant to say was that the receivers are pre-cut in russia, imported in a sporterized config. and assembled properly in the U.S. at arsenal.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 6:00:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.


Im pretty sure the 84-94 sgl receivers are factory done and just assembled by arsenal.


Unless somehow Arsenal gets a free pass from the ATF, I don't see how they can get a Russian receiver preconfigured for the side folder. The only way it would have been imported would be as sporter rifles and not as parts which means no barrels and no receivers.


What I meant to say was that the receivers are pre-cut in russia, imported in a sporterized config. and assembled properly in the U.S. at arsenal.


Do you have proof?
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 6:11:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mgwantob:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.


Im pretty sure the 84-94 sgl receivers are factory done and just assembled by arsenal.


Unless somehow Arsenal gets a free pass from the ATF, I don't see how they can get a Russian receiver preconfigured for the side folder. The only way it would have been imported would be as sporter rifles and not as parts which means no barrels and no receivers.


What I meant to say was that the receivers are pre-cut in russia, imported in a sporterized config. and assembled properly in the U.S. at arsenal.


Do you have proof?


No, but I was told by an arsenal rep at shot show in 2009 that is how they import the slr's so I figured it would be the same for the sgl's. I took it with a grain of salt, the rep could have been talking out of his ass, but thats why i said I was pretty sure, and not 110% guaranteed.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 6:25:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.


Does this mean that more than likely putting a triangle folder on a 94 with the polymer folding stock shouldn't be an issue?
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 9:10:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2012 9:19:10 PM EDT by CGP2]
Originally Posted By Molive:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.


Does this mean that more than likely putting a triangle folder on a 94 with the polymer folding stock shouldn't be an issue?


Correct, as long as you use the correct triangle stock. There are a few variations, and you want to put the triangle stock with the 5.5mm pin holes.

Link Posted: 3/30/2012 9:18:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Packman:
I just wanted to see if anybody else might have had this issue. I bought an SGL31-84 about one month ago and decided that I also wanted a AK-100 polymer side folder stock on it. I know the pin is 5.5mm, so I bought a Russian 5.5 polymer stock. When I got it and took off the triangle stock and put the polymer on, it locked open just fine and hinged just fine and smooth. The problem came when I tried to fold it to the side and latch it. No good. The hook latch was hitting about 1/32 of an inch above the latch cut out. Spoke with Marc Krebs and he said that he has not heard of this issue. Have any of you ever had this issue? I don't know if the trunnion is out of spec or just what gives. I spoke with Arsenal and all I got was uhhhh.


2 possibilities I can think of - front latch or rear trunnion. Both are added by Arsenal. These SGLs come in the US as sporter rifles. Arsenal converts them to the SGL 31-84, 31-94, etc etc. It is possible that Arsenal cut out the front latch slot on the receiver too high or installed the rear trunnion a few degrees off the correct angle. You probably did not notice because the triangle stock has a lot more area for the latch to catch compared to the polymer.


Im pretty sure the 84-94 sgl receivers are factory done and just assembled by arsenal.


Unless somehow Arsenal gets a free pass from the ATF, I don't see how they can get a Russian receiver preconfigured for the side folder. The only way it would have been imported would be as sporter rifles and not as parts which means no barrels and no receivers.


What I meant to say was that the receivers are pre-cut in russia, imported in a sporterized config. and assembled properly in the U.S. at arsenal.


The rear trunion for a SGL X1-84 and X1-94 is vastly different from a fixed stock AK which happens to be the same trunion used by the Monte Carlo stock. The rear of the receiver itself is slanted and not squared.

Link Posted: 3/30/2012 10:53:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2012 10:54:38 PM EDT by xjedix]
Based on the mere $300 price difference between the fixed stock SGL and the folders, I don't think there is any way Arsenal is cutting the receivers in house.

Same deal with Arsenal Saiga's in general. I don't believe they import them in the sporting config that we're used to. I'm guessing they import them in some fashion that puts them in a grey area of not having the evil features but being prepped and ready for them.

That's just my guess as I've never seen evidence of the SGL receivers having the sporter FCG holes welded up. They just appear to have never been there at all.


D.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 11:24:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By xjedix:
Based on the mere $300 price difference between the fixed stock SGL and the folders, I don't think there is any way Arsenal is cutting the receivers in house.

Same deal with Arsenal Saiga's in general. I don't believe they import them in the sporting config that we're used to. I'm guessing they import them in some fashion that puts them in a grey area of not having the evil features but being prepped and ready for them.

That's just my guess as I've never seen evidence of the SGL receivers having the sporter FCG holes welded up. They just appear to have never been there at all.


D.


With the right equipment, those holes can be plugged. All my SGLs still have the rectangle cut on the bottom of the receiver where the old monte carlo trigger used to be. I suspect they are not welded because it's covered up by the pistol grip when the rifle is assembled. Also, you're comparing how much those parts retail. So Arsenal (via K-Var) is selling the folding stock assemblies for $250 a pop which includes the poly stock, trunnion, latch and springs. How much do you think their profit is on that $250? Just my own guess, they know how much people are willing to pay for these parts. Given the perceived scarcity of these, they can pretty much dictate how much they sell. Since they are selling both assembled rifle and parts, they would want to price the rifle competitively enough so that a prospective buyer would think that they are getting an awesome deal just buying the rifle instead of buying the parts then building as the cost would be a lot more. Why is that? Because the parts are priced retail. They, being the importer and manufacturer, has the advantage of buying in bulk and cheaper overall prices. I am not going to be surprised if it costs Arsenal $10 for each folding stock assembly they get from Izhmash.

Just my guess. Who really knows?
Link Posted: 3/31/2012 6:27:02 AM EDT
They may have the rectangular hole under the pistol grip but they definitely did not ever have the side pin holes. We may never know how they actually come on or what Arsenal does to them.
Link Posted: 3/31/2012 7:52:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Farmer-Ted:
They may have the rectangular hole under the pistol grip but they definitely did not ever have the side pin holes. We may never know how they actually come on or what Arsenal does to them.


One of these days, I'll have the kahunas to completely strip the receiver finish off my SGL just to see the finish underneath the crappy paint. I would expect factory parts to be parkerized.
Link Posted: 3/31/2012 8:45:54 AM EDT
I'm still skeptical as to how they are imported. Look back a couple years ago when Kvar had the SGL's on sale for $499. At the time sporter Saigas were going for $350. So your telling me they imported the sporter Saigas, demilled the sporter trigger, welded the receivers, complete refinish and new FCG, furniture and barrel components all priced $150 over a sporter Saiga? Again, just based on price you can get a good idea of what work Arsenal puts into them.


D.
Link Posted: 3/31/2012 9:01:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2012 9:06:12 AM EDT by Farmer-Ted]
Originally Posted By CGP2:
Originally Posted By Farmer-Ted:
They may have the rectangular hole under the pistol grip but they definitely did not ever have the side pin holes. We may never know how they actually come on or what Arsenal does to them.


One of these days, I'll have the kahunas to completely strip the receiver finish off my SGL just to see the finish underneath the crappy paint. I would expect factory parts to be parkerized.


Looking inside the receiver there is absolutely no sign of the pin holes being welded. It would be pretty much impossible to make the filled hole invisible especially with the rear trunion in the way.
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