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Posted: 9/3/2004 4:08:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 5:02:24 AM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:28:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:21:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:41:36 AM EST
Hope they're gaurding there nuclear facilities???? That would be a mess..
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:25:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:32:31 PM EST
According to Fox News, the death toll is already over 200.

Bastards.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:34:02 PM EST
Another botched Russian military operation. Russia has neither the money, nor the mindset to deal with these type of attacks. Look for many more in the future.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 2:03:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 2:10:41 PM EST
Wow, this was a bad move even by terrorist standards. Who is going to sympathize with them now?

I think the Russians should have us send some Delta guys or something next time, even if it's hush-hush and they are reported as being "local police units" or something.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:36:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:58:41 PM EST
Well said Campy... When you are dealing with people that plan to die, just to make their point, then the outcome can only be bad...

If the same thing happened here, with the same type of terrorists, teh Seals, Delta, Rangers, Green Berets, or Swat would have had no better outcome..

Those terrorists planned to kill kids...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:22:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:23:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:26:51 PM EST
No, some of the children escaped and the fucking bastards started shooting them. The Russians were forced to respond without a plan. Not to mention they were starving and killing the kids with dehydration. Theres a special place in hell for people that hurt kids.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 5:42:13 PM EST
In reference to the terrorists I hear the words of the immortal Gunnery Sergeant Hardman in FULL METAL JACKET.

"You people are Pukes, you are the lowest form of life on this earth!" You are not even human beings!"

I hope it's not a precursor to what's to come here.


B
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 6:07:56 PM EST
As I sit here, having seen news footage and pics of this for several days, I look a tmy children and pray that this never happens to them.
I hope the Russians have the balls to do what we won't, wipe them out, wipe them all out.
This isn't a game, its war and war is hell.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:16:02 PM EST
Once you start negotiating with terrorists, you're done for. You've given up the principles for which your society stands for.

While I and every other GI on this planet should be glad the Russians are bad shots, in this case I do wish the MVD troops, or whoever carried out the raid, were better trained or equiped. The Russians have made a policy and they stand by it; no negotiations with cowardly terrorists. It's always tough when you start counting innocent bodies, but they did the right thing.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 10:35:01 PM EST
The Russians don't do a breach... the kids made a run for it, and the terrorist bastards just started shooting anything that moved.

Some 100+ were killed, 200 wounded.

Russians couldn't really do anything... It would've been like the theater incident, but the thing is they got so much flak over that, what could they have done? The same thing? No...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:10:12 PM EST
One of the reports that I read said that they were removing bodies from the school yard, and they had permission to do it from the terrorists, and the terrorists opened fire.

They ARE a bunch of amatuers... Look at the pictures, they had no perimeter. Before the shooting started, they had no perimeter... inner, outer, nothing. There were civilians mixed in with military everywhere... military guys with magazines scotch taped together like they saw in the movies, guys wearing half a uniform....

After the shit went down there was no containment... neither the victims, nor the terrorists, should have been able to get out with out being processed out of the crime scene, either to a hospital, to be debriefed, or released to their families. A little bit of intel on the missing terrorists would be real handy right now, as well as physical descriptions..

~Doug
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:30:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:00:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:32:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:23:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:00:37 AM EST
This , is why IMHO that people need to pull their heads out of their a%$.
Islam is not the religion of peace, and never will be.l Islam is the religion of terrorists period. You want to root out terrorism? Squash Islam.
I hope this is a wake up call to any and all that dont know that Islam is the scourge of humanity. This conflict between the chchneyans and the Russians is a little bit more complex than this, but still, Islam is the problem.
If there are any muslim members here I challenge you to defend Islam against terrorists actions like these.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:09:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 7:10:26 AM EST by M10KEN]

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
No, some of the children escaped and the fucking bastards started shooting them. The Russians were forced to respond without a plan. Not to mention they were starving and killing the kids with dehydration.


Theres a special place in hell for people that hurt kids.

I'll have to agree with this 100%

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:19:50 AM EST
I hope to hell this is not an omen for us here in the USA.... I fear and dread the day something like that begins here.
Just the thought of what happened fills me with a terrible rage....
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 9:14:06 AM EST
Looking at some of these pictures, and video on TV, of bloody kids and screaming terrified adults, I can't help but wonder what kind of person takes photos/video instead of getting in there and helping someone. People running by you screaming, crying, covered in blood, and you are adjusting the focus? Fucking paparazzi of human misery; just incredible.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 9:34:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 12:20:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By AJjer_Bullets:
Wow, this was a bad move even by terrorist standards. Who is going to sympathize with them now?



Lon Horiuchi and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team?

I confess to being utterly baffled by the ability of ANY of the terrorists to escape.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 12:29:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By obershutze916:
Just saw the pictures, MVD and Alpha were there. It looked like maybe some Spetnaz.

In effect, the Russians won. I fully believe that the plan for these terrorist was to kill everyone inside. It didn't work.

With pictures like these www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23659 on the news, how could this not work against these bastards.



How could pictures of people on fire jumping out of the WTC work to Al Qaeda's advantage? But they DO, at least with the people who support them. Everybody else, they just want to scare. And in some cases, it works, Spain for instance. Us, we just get the Josey Wales squint and start loading magazines.

The ONE thing which informs all of these Islamofascist groups is a childish love of gratuitous cruelty. Down deep, I think they know they can't win. Failing that, they just want to hurt a lot of people before the JDAM flies through the window. They're like the Japanese in Manilia in 1945, doomed lunatic sadists.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 12:33:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By GaryM:
I hope to hell this is not an omen for us here in the USA.... I fear and dread the day something like that begins here.
Just the thought of what happened fills me with a terrible rage....



The first time will be the last time. The Palestinians gave up on that kind of thing when they kept getting shot to pieces by armed Israeli civilians.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 12:36:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Moe-Ron:
Looking at some of these pictures, and video on TV, of bloody kids and screaming terrified adults, I can't help but wonder what kind of person takes photos/video instead of getting in there and helping someone. People running by you screaming, crying, covered in blood, and you are adjusting the focus? Fucking paparazzi of human misery; just incredible. hr


Would you rather there were no pictures? This kind of thing needs to be seen by as many people as possible. As someone else noted, I used to have considerable sympathy for the Chechens. I learned my lesson after the Moscow theater massacre.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:51:27 PM EST
Is it just me, or does the blood covering the Russian soldier show posted here look fake? Not to infer the events didn't happen, but that shot looks staged. Why?
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:51:57 PM EST
I think that the soldiers gave their all to save those kids, and each one of them probably would have given his own life to save those kids...

But from the complete and total lack of control at the scene, I don't think they had any idea what they were doing. The lack of a perimeter... 'they won't get out, we've shut off the border..' Geez, wouldn't it have been easier to secure the school? They had at least two days... there was probably a brigade, if not a division, plus police, surrounding the school.

I hope it was the Beslan national guard that responded, because if that's the best they've got the russians are hosed..

Check out the guy with the RPG. Not the recommended tool for shooting in schools full of kids.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 8:35:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 9:57:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:
Well said Campy... When you are dealing with people that plan to die, just to make their point, then the outcome can only be bad...

If the same thing happened here, with the same type of terrorists, teh Seals, Delta, Rangers, Green Berets, or Swat would have had no better outcome..

Those terrorists planned to kill kids...



I must agree here. The only difference here is with widespread CCW by both our off duty police and citizens, it is more likely that the terrorists would be interdicted. When this does happen here I would almost bet that it happens first in states that either limit, or prohibit CCW. Terrorists are evil, not stupid. They will always go for soft targets when they can.




Well said!
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 10:10:08 PM EST
I cut and pasted this from one of my posts in another thread:  

Children... O.K. so NOW it's innocent children.
Islamic people everywhere, guilty and innocent, will soon bear the world's anger and outrage. All because of a very small minority of fundamentalist "Child Killers". I wonder if ALLAH would approve of the killing of HIS innocent children? The dead terrorists are probably burning in Hell about now. Oh, and about those promised virgins... in Hell YOU are the virgin! Bend over babykiller!!!
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:04:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By GaryM:
I hope to hell this is not an omen for us here in the USA.... I fear and dread the day something like that begins here.
Just the thought of what happened fills me with a terrible rage....



Where have you been for the last 10 years? If I recall correctly something happend with a few large skyscrapers in New York a few times alone with other random things with western goverment buildings.

As for not forgeting this lesson, I think most people already have. After all who can care about Russa's problems when Scott Petterson is on trail? I think I saw a 20 second blurb on the two airplane bombings, yet funning how we can endure weeks of self hatred over the Iraqi prison scandals.

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:03:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By GaryM:
I hope to hell this is not an omen for us here in the USA.... I fear and dread the day something like that begins here.
Just the thought of what happened fills me with a terrible rage....



Pray that they don't bring this tactic here. I hate to say it but eventually if they ( The Terrorists )
get frustrated with not being able to hit hard targets here or pulling off a Radiological / Bio attack then they will resort to this type of attack.

The Media has downplayed the role of Islam / Al- Qaeda in this attack.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:00:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 7:01:10 AM EST by AJjer_Bullets]

Originally Posted By colossians323:
This , is why IMHO that people need to pull their heads out of their a%$.
Islam is not the religion of peace, and never will be.l Islam is the religion of terrorists period. You want to root out terrorism? Squash Islam.
I hope this is a wake up call to any and all that dont know that Islam is the scourge of humanity. This conflict between the chchneyans and the Russians is a little bit more complex than this, but still, Islam is the problem.
If there are any muslim members here I challenge you to defend Islam against terrorists actions like these.



I don't know how many times I'm gonna have to say this, but blaming religion for acts of violence is like blaming guns for acts of violence.

A religion is merely a set of words and customs, it's the people who decide how to use it. Any religion you can name can be used to alternately bring peace and incite horrible violence depending upon the mindset of the followers, the teachings or passages emphisised and especially the degree to which the message is twisted by those who seek to use it to their own advantage.

It happens to be trendy at this time to use Islam to incite violence and unrest. It is more circumstance however then the particular religion used. The middle east is awash with poor uneducated, exploited, and above all angry youths which are perfect fodder for religious manipulation.

The only religion which has consistantly upheld the principals of peace is Buddhism, it's that simple.

Every other major religion can and has been used as a tool of violence, right now Islam happens to be the most popular in this role, but mainly because of the make-up of it's followers rather then the things it teaches.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:48:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By AJjer_Bullets:
I don't know how many times I'm gonna have to say this, but blaming religion for acts of violence is like blaming guns for acts of violence.

A religion is merely a set of words and customs, it's the people who decide how to use it. Any religion you can name can be used to alternately bring peace and incite horrible violence depending upon the mindset of the followers, the teachings or passages emphisised and especially the degree to which the message is twisted by those who seek to use it to their own advantage.

It happens to be trendy at this time to use Islam to incite violence and unrest. It is more circumstance however then the particular religion used. The middle east is awash with poor uneducated, exploited, and above all angry youths which are perfect fodder for religious manipulation.

The only religion which has consistantly upheld the principals of peace is Buddhism, it's that simple.

Every other major religion can and has been used as a tool of violence, right now Islam happens to be the most popular in this role, but mainly because of the make-up of it's followers rather then the things it teaches.



1. That's a bad analogy. Blaming guns is silly because they're inanimate objects. It's like blaming mailboxes for kiddieporn. Blaming religion is blaming PEOPLE who make choices about what they'll do in life, including blowing up children. Religion (and pseudo-religion, like communism and fascism) makes these things easier because it provides you with an all-powerful imaginary friend who tells you (or whom you SAY tells you) to turn toddlers into goulash with hexagen. Human beings have free will. Religion gives people an excuse to pretend they DON'T have free will. "I didn't want to shoot those schoolgirls in the back, but 'god' TOLD me too."

2. The idea of Buddhists as pacifists doesn't survive even a cursory examination of even just Japanese history. Look up the term "yamabushi" and see where it leads you. That leaves aside the fact that a lot of Buddhist fingers pulled a lot of triggers in Vietnam.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:49:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By obershutze916:
Let the soldiers do their job and stay out of the way. The camera man has no ability to help. He can only record the event. That is his job to help, so that others may know of the horror these people went through.




COPY THAT!
If it weren't for the cameraman, we probabily would not be involved in this discussion right now. And as sad as the situation was, everyone worldwide should use the film to examine what went wrong and how to better prevent it from happening again.

As much as I hate to say it, we should have several armed police officers in every school in this country. We are no longer living in the 1950's. This Islamic threat is as real here in the U.S. as it is in Israel. We should not wait for it to happen here even once, at any one school! That would be the worst thing possible given that we have SEEN the writing on the wall in this film footage from Russia. We need to be PROACTIVE to protect OUR children!!! As is done in Israel. Are they not worth the expense of defending???? Instead of trying to ban "assault weapons", why don't the Soccer Moms and the Liberal Left cry out for better protection of their children in schools? The children are more at risk today than ever before. We've seen that right here in this thread and on all of the major news broadcasts. So listen up everyone, especially all the misguided Liberals, we are ALL in a warzone. Just by being an American we become targets. It is high time that we all wake up. This Russian school incident is your alarm clock going off!!!!!!!!!

It was an armed populace which gave birth to our nation and has kept it free up to this date. To disarm our citizens would most certainly invite our demise.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:41:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By deanimator:
1. That's a bad analogy. Blaming guns is silly because they're inanimate objects. It's like blaming mailboxes for kiddieporn. Blaming religion is blaming PEOPLE who make choices about what they'll do in life, including blowing up children. Religion (and pseudo-religion, like communism and fascism) makes these things easier because it provides you with an all-powerful imaginary friend who tells you (or whom you SAY tells you) to turn toddlers into goulash with hexagen. Human beings have free will. Religion gives people an excuse to pretend they DON'T have free will. "I didn't want to shoot those schoolgirls in the back, but 'god' TOLD me too."

2. The idea of Buddhists as pacifists doesn't survive even a cursory examination of even just Japanese history. Look up the term "yamabushi" and see where it leads you. That leaves aside the fact that a lot of Buddhist fingers pulled a lot of triggers in Vietnam.



1. Religions are sets of words, teachings and customs, which people can choose to use, enterpret and follow as they see fit. My point is that religion tells us only what we want or are willing to hear. Depending upon my ambitions and outlook I could re-enterpret the "word of god" to mean practically anything. You say that blaming religion is blaming people, I say blaming people is blaming people and blaming religion is blaming books and teachings and stories, all of which we can choose to follow or not follow. Why not skip the religion and go right to the people who actually commited the acts?

My other point is that religious fanatasism and violence floureshes under conditions of poverty and ignorance, regardless of what religion it might be. In the middle ages Europe was rife with poverty and people were rarely educated and as a result the dominant religion, which happened to be Christianity was followed fanatically and also used as a tool of violence. With the coming of the age of enlightenment this was greatly reduced, but why? The religion remained the same as before, but the people had changed.

2. A swing and a miss. In neither case were the people you mention trying to spread Buddhism or fight in it's name. Simply because they happened to subscribe to, or officially belong to that religion doesn't mean it had anything to do with their military actions or acts of violence. Notably, I never said Buddhist were pacifists, only that there have rarely been mass acts of violence commited against non-buddhists specifically in the name of that religion, which cannot be said for the other major religions.

Link Posted: 9/7/2004 2:40:01 AM EST
School takeover with either weapons caching or weapons smuggled in by insiders, for media execution of hostages, was a specific Al-Qaeda training scenario in Afghanistan.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:48:43 AM EST

2. A swing and a miss. In neither case were the people you mention trying to spread Buddhism or fight in it's name. Simply because they happened to subscribe to, or officially belong to that religion doesn't mean it had anything to do with their military actions or acts of violence. Notably, I never said Buddhist were pacifists, only that there have rarely been mass acts of violence commited against non-buddhists specifically in the name of that religion, which cannot be said for the other major religions.




I really have to agree, although shortly before before WWII Japanese Buddism did take a turn for the worse and got twistedly used. Although not really used for a religious cause the twisted view of the mixed Shinto/Buddhism psychlogically allowed Japanese troops to commit horrific acts in Manchuria and throughout WWII.

On the flipside the only "Buddhist" act I remember from Vietnam was the monk burning himself to death in protest. Allthough this act was decidely against Buddhist doctrine, being an act of violence in of itself, I find that it was an immesurably honorably way to protest a war on one's own soil compared to any sort of terrorist act. He chose to harm nobody but himself and anyone who has seen the footage I doubt has ever forgoten it. That is a lasting act of protest. Any one remember who blew themselves and dozens of other Jews last month? I don't, and they don't deserve to be remembered except as ingnorant people that who don't care who they kill. In other words filth.
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