I'm interested in getting my first "combat/tactical" rifle and I've narrowed the field to the two obvious choices, an AK47 or an AR15/10 (I like .30 cals and would lean towards an AR10).  I was especially interested in the AKs cuz I found out you can get a romanian for under $400...  But then I've read a lot of vague posts about them being not up to snuff...

So what's the true story?  What's wrong with the Romanian AKs?

Also, slightly unrelated, is there any difference in the Druganov "Sniper" rifles I've seen and other AKs other than the stocks + scope mounts?

Thanks,

Kevin

Quoted: I'm interested in getting my first "combat/tactical" rifle and I've narrowed the field to the two obvious choices, an AK47 or an AR15/10 (I like .30 cals and would lean towards an AR10).  I was especially interested in the AKs cuz I found out you can get a romanian for under $400...  But then I've read a lot of vague posts about them being not up to snuff... So what's the true story?  What's wrong with the Romanian AKs? Also, slightly unrelated, is there any difference in the Druganov "Sniper" rifles I've seen and other AKs other than the stocks + scope mounts? Thanks, Kevin

Its not that Romaks are bad.  They are built to run no matter what abuse you put them thru.  Most complaints is that the Romanian AKs are built shotty.  Front sight post on most are canted badly to one side and their fit and finish just doesn't compare to the more expensive AK's.  That being said with the exception to fit and finish Romanian AKs are just as accurate and reliable as their more expensive cousins.  There is nothing wrong with ROmanian AKs as a matter of fact they are a GREAT entry value rifle if you can get past their quirks.

On your Dragunove question I'm guessing you mean the ROmak3 and with the exception of caliber, barrel length, and over all size not there is no difference.  Its basically a BIG BIG AK chambered in 7.62 X 54R.  

I'm am not an expert by any means on any guns but this is how I see it.  Hope the info helps.  

Do they make dragunov stocks for standard AKs?  Cuz it would be nice to retain the size/weight of the AK as a general "battle" rifle, but I really like the dragunov stocks.

Quoted: Do they make dragunov stocks for standard AKs?  Cuz it would be nice to retain the size/weight of the AK as a general "battle" rifle, but I really like the dragunov stocks.

Yes.

BTW, I just bought a Romanian AK a couple of weeks ago and have put a couple hundred rounds through it so far and I love it.

I have found Romanian SARs and WASR's to be as good as any other AK variant, especially for the money. Functionally, they are excellent. I have found them to be very accurate and reliable.
The WASR GP is about as close as you can get to an actual "milspec" AKM. I have owned several Romanian AK's and I have found the original SAR's and the WASR GP to be among the best. Non-GP WASR's I have owned have been of nominal quality. I bought 2 brand new WASR's, a 5.45 and 5.56 for 300.00 for both. Both weapons were non-functional as they wouldn't cycle properly or chamber rounds, though they looked "ok". Non-GP WASRs tend to have the lowest level of quality, IMO while the GP and SAR are tied for the best. If you buy a Romanian AK, I would reccomend a WASR GP or an original SAR as opposed to a WASR10. Quality varies between examples, though not really dropping below a certain point. Some examples have beautiful fit/finish and excellent

triggers, so try and pick from a few to get the best one. Besides the two WASR10's, I have had absolutely no problems with any SAR or GP's that I have owned. All have been extremely reliable and accurate. They workmanship isn't going to be as good as a Vector, but the price is much better. Functionally, they will be nearly identical. I absolutely love my WASR GP. Its not an underfolder which might actually appreciate in value and resale value isn't great so I can feel free to abuse the hell out of it. The abuse I have subjected my GP to would make an African rebel cringe. While I do take care of it and all, I can fully enjoy it without worrying about hurting it. Its very liberating, not like shooting an Arsenal which I care about damaging. I highly reccomend buying a WASR GP as they are excellent weapons. With the exception of an underfolder, spending a few hundred more isnt likely going to get you a better rifle.

does no one look at the other pages on the forum or  the 100000 other threads on this topic?

Quoted: does no one look at the other pages on the forum or  the 100000 other threads on this topic?

Apparently not Dieter....I was thinking the same thing.

You will be able to own one in Illinois at least until they pass HB2414, and the governor signs that
California type weapons ban in to law.

Nothing is wrong with them. They are quite serviceable weapons. check them for canted front sights
and gas blocks.  Install a RSA FCG, refinish the stock wood that comes on it and they can look quite good.

KyARGuy

My WASR-10 doesn't have canted sights, gas tube, or anything. In fact, except for the crappy finish that gets scratched up easily and the occasional problem sticking a magazine in, I have nothing but praise for the thing.

Just handled one a couple hours ago at a pawn shop that was just as good as mine, the only differences being:

It had no bayonet lug or slant brake; my rifle does.

It had the Dragunov-style stock, while mine has the military stock and pistol grip. I like both.



As for your Dragunov/Romak question, which has already been answered so I'm just covering old territory:

Romak-3's are basically just regular AK's that have been expanded to take 7.62x54R ammo. They have longer barrels, different furniture, muzzle brakes, and scopes, but they are essentially just bigger and more accurate AK's.

Dragunovs are not AK's, despite the superficial resemblance. As designated marksmen/"sniper" rifles, they totally kick butt.

I plan on getting a Romak-3 some day as a deer rifle.

Quoted: Quoted: does no one look at the other pages on the forum or  the 100000 other threads on this topic? Apparently not Dieter....I was thinking the same thing. You will be able to own one in Illinois at least until they pass HB2414, and the governor signs that California type weapons ban in to law. Nothing is wrong with them. They are quite serviceable weapons. check them for canted front sights and gas blocks.  Install a RSA FCG, refinish the stock wood that comes on it and they can look quite good. KyARGuy

their definitly "project" guns....

Id rather build an AK from the ground up than own a WASR...thats just me

I have a Romanian SAR I got for $300.  It is not as pretty as my other AKs but always works and is very accurate.  The only issue I had with the gun was with trigger slap which I was able to fix myself easily.  I would recommend checking out the gun before you buy, but keep in mind most issues (trigger slap, canted front sight, etc) can be fixed pretty easily.  I would look for this stuff but not consider it a deal breaker if you can find a nice deal on a gun.



Ron

I have shot many a times a romak. Honestly I would never pay for one. Total piece of shit because of the awful trigger slap along with the inherent inaccuracy of an AK, a badly made one to boot. Save up for a better AK

Quoted: I have shot many a times a romak. Honestly I would never pay for one. Total piece of shit because of the awful trigger slap along with the inherent inaccuracy of an AK, a badly made one to boot. Save up for a better AK

A Romak is not a WASR-10.  Different rifle.  I have seen a number of people posting this on the forum in the last couple of weeks.  There were several models of the Romak brought in, some single stack some not.

If you are saying that all Romanian AK's are crap, then you are speaking from obvious ignorance.  The SAR models along with several of the other models are very good weapons for what they were designed to be.  As for accuracy.  Do you think that these rifles were made for the purpose of pinpoint accuracy?  The AK rifle has killed enough people in the world to prove that it does what it was designed to do.  You obviously need some reading on the subject www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/model.htm

The supposed inaccuracy is because the cartridge most of these weapons use is not a cartridge designed for benchrest rifles.  The cartridge is designed for its ability to kill or wound in battle.  You can not compare that to a match .308 round being shot out of a sniper rifle or a match .223 round being shot off a bench with a scope through a free-floated AR-15.  

As for trigger slap.  Anyone with any knowledge about the rifle and any firearms maintenance ability can fix the problem in 10 minutes.

Instead of trolling here on the AK side go back to General Discussion and ask some more questions about how to ask someone to be you Valentine

Hey man,
              Dont listen to the people who talk shit about the wasr. Most of these people seem to be gun snobs who want to justify their more expensive aks when the wasr does the same thing but on a tighter budget. I got my wasr in december 2005 and have put thousands of rounds through it without a single problem. It is true the finish blows goats but i corrected that in an afternoon and i like it even more now.
It is combat accurate and i believe a very good gun. What do you buy an ak for? Ruggedness, reliability, high capacity, loud as hell, fun as hell. These should have been your answers, and the wasr passes these with flying color. Also century is fetting their shit together. I bought a wasr in the same month as a friend and they were both fine. no trigger slap, no cants, nothin. The only thing i didnt like was the finish, which as i said was taken care of in 2 hours and a week or drying. I would recommend you get the wasr because for the price it cant be beat.

http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/sightin.htm

this is a good source of info

My GP WASR-10, I think it looks great, I love the not classic non-wooden finish. I havent had any problems with it yet, Feeds great, shoots steady, excellent recoil that's noticeable but not to the point that it throws off your shot. I haven't shot if folded yet but I'm getting ready to learn how to bumpfire it. I especially love the sound of it( You hear it and know it a MilSpec Rifle)
It has a G2 FCG, Tapco Galil Forehand grip, Tapco Sidefolder Stock, And I have a Kobra Red Dot Sight on the way!
It'll make you fall in love with the hobby, all over again or for the first time!  
BTW  I'm in Kansas City, Missouri
Here's a Pic of my rifle for those of your not in the Romanian Board:)
http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/4631/kgroup5pa.th.jpg http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/8323/akoutside14wi.th.jpg http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/2391/akunfoldedoutside4kz.th.jpg http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/1569/gp19oj.th.jpg http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6569/romaniangpwasr100fy.th.jpg http://img497.imageshack.us/img497/3792/myak7wc.th.jpg http://img497.imageshack.us/img497/4396/meandmyak1ku.th.jpg http://img497.imageshack.us/img497/6098/kay864oi.th.jpg

Quoted: My GP WASR-10, I think it looks great, I love the not classic non-wooden finish. I havent had any problems with it yet, Feeds great, shoots steady, excellent recoil that's noticeable but not to the point that it throws off your shot. I haven't shot if folded yet but I'm getting ready to learn how to bumpfire it. I especially love the sound of it( You hear it and know it a MilSpec Rifle) It has a G2 FCG, Tapco Galil Forehand grip, Tapco Sidefolder Stock, And I have a Kobra Red Dot Sight on the way! It'll make you fall in love with the hobby, all over again or for the first time!   BTW  I'm in Kansas City, Missouri

I'm not a big fan of the TAPCO furniture, but if you like it, that is all that matters.  If the rifle works then a WASR is a good deal for the price.  Too bad we won't be seeing anymore $288.00 SAR-1's anymore.  

Quoted: Quoted: I have shot many a times a romak. Honestly I would never pay for one. Total piece of shit because of the awful trigger slap along with the inherent inaccuracy of an AK, a badly made one to boot. Save up for a better AK A Romak is not a WASR-10.  Different rifle.  I have seen a number of people posting this on the forum in the last couple of weeks.  There were several models of the Romak brought in, some single stack some not. If you are saying that all Romanian AK's are crap, then you are speaking from obvious ignorance.  The SAR models along with several of the other models are very good weapons for what they were designed to be.  As for accuracy.  Do you think that these rifles were made for the purpose of pinpoint accuracy?  The AK rifle has killed enough people in the world to prove that it does what it was designed to do.  You obviously need some reading on the subject www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/model.htm The supposed inaccuracy is because the cartridge most of these weapons use is not a cartridge designed for benchrest rifles.  The cartridge is designed for its ability to kill or wound in battle.  You can not compare that to a match .308 round being shot out of a sniper rifle or a match .223 round being shot off a bench with a scope through a free-floated AR-15.   As for trigger slap.  Anyone with any knowledge about the rifle and any firearms maintenance ability can fix the problem in 10 minutes. Instead of trolling here on the AK side go back to General Discussion and ask some more questions about how to ask someone to be you Valentine

romak whatever, sar 10, All Im saying is that it is one of the lowest quality guns out there IMHO. I dont even own any AKs but If I did want one I would never consider a romanian AK. Just feels like junk in my hands simple as that, he asked for input thats mine.

When my friend brings his rom ak with us to go shooting I look at it in pure disgust. Some friendly fellows at the range showed us some Yugo AK's and some other makes, now THAT is a much better rifle

Quoted: romak whatever, sar 10, All Im saying is that it is one of the lowest quality guns out there IMHO. I dont even own any AKs but If I did want one I would never consider a romanian AK. Just feels like junk in my hands simple as that, he asked for input thats mine. When my friend brings his rom ak with us to go shooting I look at it in pure disgust. Some friendly fellows at the range showed us some Yugo AK's and some other makes, now THAT is a much better rifle

Like I said.  You are speaking out of ignorance.  You don't even own an AK but you are over here trolling calling something you know nothing about junk, go troll somewhere else.

Can you even own a firearm, legally?

christ0ph Member Joined :: May 2005 Post Number :: 500 I was arrested during 2nd period at high school once. for stealing 10k worth of band equipment and pawning it at Portland Pawn shops Felony charges. settled under the table. 6 mos probation. expunged record.

Quoted: Quoted: romak whatever, sar 10, All Im saying is that it is one of the lowest quality guns out there IMHO. I dont even own any AKs but If I did want one I would never consider a romanian AK. Just feels like junk in my hands simple as that, he asked for input thats mine. When my friend brings his rom ak with us to go shooting I look at it in pure disgust. Some friendly fellows at the range showed us some Yugo AK's and some other makes, now THAT is a much better rifle Like I said.  You are speaking out of ignorance.  You don't even own an AK but you are over here trolling calling something you know nothing about junk, go troll somewhere else. Can you even own a firearm, legally? christ0ph Member Joined :: May 2005 Post Number :: 500 I was arrested during 2nd period at high school once. for stealing 10k worth of band equipment and pawning it at Portland Pawn shops Felony charges. settled under the table. 6 mos probation. expunged record.

Calm down sir. What are you trying to say by digging up non-relevant stuff like a little bitch? I have shot hundereds of rounds through a romanian ak so what if I dont actually own one, I am simply offering my opinion and experience with it, whats wrong with that? Yes I can own a gun legally, I am 19 and own several including handguns. are you happy now?

Considering I've worked in for the DOJ for 19+ years, which means longer than you have been alive, I would not take advice from a convicted felon on anything, whether the charges were expunged due to his youthful indiscretions and settled under the table.  The fact of the matter is that you know very little about AK's and you are a self admitted thief.  I don't associate with thieves.  

Just my opinion.  Oh, by the way, I was serving in The USMC more than 10 years before you were born so I have your bitch any time you want to come and get it.

who needs daytime television when you have Arfcom?

I owned a Romanian SAR1 that ran like a top.  I've since sold it (regretably) and will be looking for another one soon.

Quoted: Considering I've worked in for the DOJ for 19+ years, which means longer than you have been alive, I would not take advice from a convicted felon on anything, whether the charges were expunged due to his youthful indiscretions and settled under the table.  The fact of the matter is that you know very little about AK's and you are a self admitted thief.  I don't associate with thieves.   Just my opinion.  Oh, by the way, I was serving in The USMC more than 10 years before you were born so I have your bitch any time you want to come and get it.

thats great. by the way, WASRs suck

Kevin, this is my question.

You listed you'd also look into an AR15 or even an AR10.

The AR series of weapons are on a completely different level on certain advantages like ergonomics and in some ways accuracy, but they also carry a high price if you want all the bells and whistles.  Substituting a WASR in place of a well built AR15 for the purpose of "tactical/combat" practice doesn't make much sense.  The WASR is a great gun if you can't afford a $1000 AR15 or a $1500 AR10.  If you can afford either of those I wouldn't go near a WASR, but if you really have your eyes set on one, with that amount of money you might as well buy 3 or 4.  See what I'm saying?

If you have that amount to spend and want something top of the line, built for tactical training (i.e. lights, forward grips, a plethora of optics) than the AR15 is probably going to be your best choice.

I'm not at all bashing the AK platform, I have 2 AKs both bulgarian, and no ARs, and you'll never see me on the AR side of this board, but I give credit where it's due.  

Another scenario is if you have your heart set on an AK then you should put that money towards an Arsenal, or a professional kit build like those from www.ak-103.com (AK-USA).  They're high dollar around the $700-$1000 range, but you get what you pay for.  

Also, for the draqunov question.

You're probably referring to the more commonly seen Romak III's.  They are in fact large AKs built for the 7.62x54r round with beefier receivers which add more to the accuracy.  The reports are mixed, but well built Romak III's from Romania are supposed to be a great gun for the cost and what you get in return.  You're not going to shoot out a dear's left eye at 800 meters, but shouldn't have a problem getting a good shot with enough practice.  I think most reports say anywhere aroudn 2-1MOA at 100 yards.  Which is about 2"-1" sized groupings with good quality ammunition.   That's pretty good in my opinion.  

Now the real dragunovs and their clones, like the Tigers and Chinese NDM's are another weapon all together, inheriting little if anything from the AK design.  They're more in similarity to the SKS gas system.  But those are going to run you in the $2000 range if you can find one.

Hope this helps.

-mark

I have a WASR and a few other AKs as well.

My WASR is a great little gun - I would buy another without hesitation.  The wood isnt great, the finish isnt great but it functions 100%.  I also went back and forth on the WASR before ordering, I finally decided to try one despite what others said and Im happy I did.  It was my first AK and its been great.

The only "problem" I have had with mine is...........

I have about 20 AK magazines - 2 of the 20 dont fit in the WASR (magazines seem to be to large).  The other 18 slip in like a dream.

Thanks for all the input, and the drama...

I've been doing a lot of reading online, here and elsewhere... and I definately want an AK.  The AR platform is great for what it does... but I don't need a super accurate competition rifle.  I need a rugged, super reliable rifle that will be fun to shoot and train with and will come in handy in an SHTF situations.  If I decide to take up hunting I already have a highly accurate, though aging, Enfield that would do just fine.

As for the WASRs... I went out and looked at as many as I could find.  I'm sure they function just fine, and I love getting old beat up Mil-Surp rifles... I wouldn't refinish my Enfield or Garand for nothing-they've got character!  But those Romanians... wow.  At least all the ones I saw had more pins than wood on the stocks... Hell, I want to be the one to beat up my rifle!  Anyways, I found a sweet deal on what looks to be a pretty good Hungarian SA-85 on one of the "other" forums dedicated to this great platform..

Oh, and you got to admit... there's something beautiful about an ex-marine telling some high school punk his place in the world.  Actually, come to think of it, this country would be in better shape if marines told more high school punks what their net worth is to society... in boot camp!

Thanks again for all the help guys!

Quoted: Oh, and you got to admit... there's something beautiful about an ex-marine telling some high school punk his place in the world.  Actually, come to think of it, this country would be in better shape if marines told more high school punks what their net worth is to society... in boot camp!

Yeah, no shit!

Semper Fi Mak
I didn't know you were a jarhead. Knew I liked you for some damn reason.

Quoted: Quoted: Oh, and you got to admit... there's something beautiful about an ex-marine telling some high school punk his place in the world.  Actually, come to think of it, this country would be in better shape if marines told more high school punks what their net worth is to society... in boot camp! Yeah, no shit! Semper Fi Mak I didn't know you were a jarhead. Knew I liked you for some damn reason.

Semper Fi right back at you  

Quoted: www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/sightin.htm this is a good source of info

Above site is required reading by all AK owners.

I paid $400 for my 1st Sar1 and $100 for my Wasr10. I had the finish on the SAR1 redone by Krebs Custom. My Wasr10 I bought used, cheap, and rusty. I like em both.

Here my Sar1


And my Wasr10, repainted (home job) and restocked.


Can you guess which is my favorite?

red x's of death drobs,.....

i have a GP-WASR-10,...man i tell you i love that fucking gun,...is it a nice looking as my Arsenal?,.. nope,..not even close!.....is it as accurate?,... nope,.. but its damn good!

does it shoot whatever ammo i feed it?,.. hell yes!,..has it ever malfunctioned? nope not one time yet!

it is my beater gun,.. i abuse the hell out of it,....but i wouldent get rid of that little 300 dollar rifle for anything.

the finish is really bad beacuse of what i put it thru,...but im going to fix that soon,....and with some new wood and some TLC,...heres how it looks now

everyone should have that one special rifle that they know they'd never get rid of. i just got mine, err i just paid for it at least. now i'm waiting anxiously and impatiently for that call...that single telephone call...that will be the day my life changes with one simple phone call. yes..my first AK will be ready to be picked up from the dealer.

It's a great feeling. Personally, I was smiling all the way there as soon as the dealer called.

Lousy red x's!!!