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Posted: 10/2/2004 8:39:36 PM EST
Ok I definately dont want to fuck up the whole steel core 5.45 ammo deal but I had a thought earlier. It may have already been covered and I'm just now remembering it but I want to make sure to ask it. Are AOW's held to the same rules as pistols? I mean NFA usually doesnt count on other things like this and an AOW isnt a pistol. The only downside is you couldnt carry concealed since NFA is not allowed for self defense etc.

Like I said, my point was to have similar characteristics as a 74 pistol but not screw up the whole ammo deal. It would be real easy for builders to mandate a forward pistol grip and form 4 on all builds.

Link Posted: 10/2/2004 9:41:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By LHD:
It would be real easy for builders to mandate a forward pistol grip and form 4 on all builds.



It would be easy for them to do anything but if a manufacturer only offers AOWs then they won't sell jack. Who wants to go through the hassle of filing for a Form 3 xfer in exchange for the remote POSSIBILITY of paying a few buck less for a case of 5.45?

I am almost ready to start my 5.45 pistol build. I am sure there are 100's if not 1000's of others that are underway or already completed. Remember, people were saying the same thing 10 years ago when import steel core 7.62x39 was nixed. I paid $69 for last case of Russian I bought. Does anyone think it would be any cheaper if it hadn't been?
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 10:59:56 PM EST
Cheaper no. Cooler yes. The penetrative ability and the little moving plug are cool. From what I remember they make the bullet flip and contort since the center of gravity changes as the plug moves. More so than normal 5.45.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:27:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 5:43:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
i'm concerned about getting 7n6 in the states



Pardon my ignorance..................7n6?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:30:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
i'm concerned about getting 7n6 in the states



Pardon my ignorance..................7n6?



Russkie milspec 5.45 I believe.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:32:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
i'm concerned about getting 7n6 in the states



Pardon my ignorance..................7n6?



Military issue 5.45 ammo w/steel penetrator similar to our SS109. There's got to be billions of rds sitting around in ex-ComBloc warehouses just waiting for a little hard currency to "liberate" them to the US.
Tomac
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:23:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 9:26:31 AM EST by Corbic]
You also notice how limited the current 5.45 ammo supply it, its not like 7.62 or .223. Why try an screw everything up for the rest of us? Potential 5.45 can become as cheap as 7 cents a round and still be awesome quality military ammunition. Well the last fiasco happened we lost all the cool Chinese and South African ammunition...

Have you thought of this also, what if all this crap about making "assault pistols" causes the next ban to come around sooner, and this time they just ban the importation of ammunition? I'm sure many American companies would LOVE that, just like the love the ban for importing "assault rifles".

If that happends I doubt you ever be able to buy 5.45 again, and 7.62x39 will run for $17.99 a box.

Jack
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:42:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 9:44:36 AM EST by AR-15Fan]

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By LHD:
It would be real easy for builders to mandate a forward pistol grip and form 4 on all builds.



It would be easy for them to do anything but if a manufacturer only offers AOWs then they won't sell jack. Who wants to go through the hassle of filing for a Form 3 xfer in exchange for the remote POSSIBILITY of paying a few buck less for a case of 5.45?

I am almost ready to start my 5.45 pistol build. I am sure there are 100's if not 1000's of others that are underway or already completed. Remember, people were saying the same thing 10 years ago when import steel core 7.62x39 was nixed. I paid $69 for last case of Russian I bought. Does anyone think it would be any cheaper if it hadn't been?



Think about it for a minute. Our choices for 5.45 ammo are extremely limited, what two sources, barnual and Wolf currently? Sometimes another manufacturer's offerings hits a bit, all the same stuff, all from Russia. A new trade deal with Russia concerning ammunition imports that cuts off popular military calibers could have us royally fucked (and could happen at anytime, our import agreements with them are very anti-military weapon/ammo...). A half dozen nations over there are in the process of switching or thinking of switching to 5.56 weapons to join NATO and such. What are they going to do with the millions apon millions of steel core 5.45 they've got sitting around? Why sell it on the surplus market of course, much of it will come here. That will open up a huge source of 5.45 for us if boneheads don't screw it up building some worthless curiousity AK74 pistol. It definitely should drive down the price of 5.45 but that is secondary. First off we'll have a solid source for the future from multiple countries, and we'll have a new loading that we've so far not had (in any quantity)

The idea that "well it's cheap enough already, who cares" is the lamest thing I've heard in quite awhile... We need this ammo to be available on a larger scale, and I would love to have another choice in the loadings/bullet types...

Even if a 1000 have already been built if we spread and word and keep them from popping up all over the place and certainly stop any commercial production and we may keep it under the ATF's radar and avoid a ban...
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:21:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR-15Fan:
That will open up a huge source of 5.45 for us if boneheads don't screw it up building some worthless curiousity AK74 pistol



I guess I am one of the "boneheads" you are referring to here. So be it.

First......This whole issue is the definition of reckless speculation. It is a non issue right now and there is no indication that it will ever become one.

Second...........When in the hell did it become acceptable in our community to start to "Sanction" what other gun owners can and can't own. "Some worthless curiousity AK74 pistol"? I apologize to those who may feel otherwise but I will build/own any damn legal weapon I choose to!

Third........To think that an importer will tie up the money and bring in "Millions" of rounds of 5.45 to sit in a warehouse somewhere is pure fantasy. 5.45 is not a high demand caliber, never has been. Will it be in the future? I doubt it but even if it ever becomes one, the surplus stocks in Europe will be scrapped and the powder will be sold for fertilizer by that time.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:22:19 AM EST
Remember, the 7.62x39 steel-core 'ban' was a decision made by CLINTON'S ATF... The present administration has NOT arbitrarily banned ANYTHING
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:50:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By AR-15Fan:
That will open up a huge source of 5.45 for us if boneheads don't screw it up building some worthless curiousity AK74 pistol



I guess I am one of the "boneheads" you are referring to here. So be it.


Second...........When in the hell did it become acceptable in our community to start to "Sanction" what other gun owners can and can't own.




When it fucks over the rest of us for the purpose of a "ooh I gotta have one" project.

It's basic common courtesy to your fellow gun owners.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:16:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 12:49:36 PM EST by AR-15Fan]

Second...........When in the hell did it become acceptable in our community to start to "Sanction" what other gun owners can and can't own. "Some worthless curiousity AK74 pistol"? I apologize to those who may feel otherwise but I will build/own any damn legal weapon I choose to!

Third........To think that an importer will tie up the money and bring in "Millions" of rounds of 5.45 to sit in a warehouse somewhere is pure fantasy. 5.45 is not a high demand caliber, never has been. Will it be in the future? I doubt it but even if it ever becomes one, the surplus stocks in Europe will be scrapped and the powder will be sold for fertilizer by that time.



It's not sanctioning, it's trying to make people aware of the reprocusions of building that certain weapon. No one would give a shit what you built if it didn't get a massive source of ammo banned from import... If you're too much of a freakin jerk to take that under advisement and build something else like everyone else who's found out about it, then I guess there's nothing we can do.

As to the ammo importation, one guy already had millions of the rounds coming in, if you followed the other threads you'd know Cheif Thunder had a bunch of it in customs storage when he was arrested for unrelated firearms charges, and it was all seized. There has been mention of another importer that has lined up a couple million rounds to import now, not sure what the status of that is. IF it's not banned you can bet someone will be importing it before too long, it'll be cheap and there will be "ooodles" available... But apparently that's a big IF since some people can't seem to think ahead a bit. It's your contention that if not banned, no one will be bringing this in? That's ridiculous.

As for the ATF, they could wake up and ban this stuff at any time if the pistols are all over the place, I don't think we should count on them being firearm friendly and not banning it....

Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:32:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 1:41:39 PM EST by rickinvegas]

Originally Posted By bastiat:
When it fucks over the rest of us for the purpose of a "ooh I gotta have one" project.



[hunter]And if all you psycho gun nuts don't stop buying all those baby killing bullet hose AK-47's, "They" are going to ban all guns! [/hunter]



Originally Posted By AR-15Fan:
When it fucks over the rest of us for the purpose of a "ooh I gotta have one" project.



See above


This is some totally bullshit reasoning. I've been seeing a lot of it around here lately.
Just so I don't "Fuck over" everyone, What other guns should I refrain from buying? I hear "assault weapons" are real bad.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:07:40 PM EST
Rick is fucking right. I live in upstate NY, if I have to hear another hardcore hunter lecture me on why I should not own an AR15, I'm gonig to scream.

Ive been lurking here some a while now and was thinking of buying an AK of some type but after seeing this shit you can sure as hell bet I won't be telling anyone here about it. I might buy something you guys won't approve of.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:05:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 3:08:35 PM EST by bastiat]

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
When it fucks over the rest of us for the purpose of a "ooh I gotta have one" project.



[hunter]And if all you psycho gun nuts don't stop buying all those baby killing bullet hose AK-47's, "They" are going to ban all guns! [/hunter]



Originally Posted By AR-15Fan:
When it fucks over the rest of us for the purpose of a "ooh I gotta have one" project.



See above


This is some totally bullshit reasoning. I've been seeing a lot of it around here lately.
Just so I don't "Fuck over" everyone, What other guns should I refrain from buying? I hear "assault weapons" are real bad.



thats' complete and utter bullshit.

Buying an ak-47 doesn't do anything. There are no laws stating if an ak-47 is purchased or built,something will be banned. Thats an incredibly weak and false argument just to back up your selfishness.

There IS a law stating that AP ammunition can be banned if there is a pistol available for it. So there is a direct cause-effect relationship to your actions. Instead, you want to be mr. tough guy and say "screw you guys, I want to build a pistol chambered for 5.45 x39"

Then you throw in some weak-ass argument about buying an assault weapons makes them banned. Please. A four year old could do better than that.

Your argument is pure crap. You're willing to shit on other gun owners for your pet project, and then insult them when they try to point out what you're doing could screw us all.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:07:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By MooseNugget:
Rick is fucking right. I live in upstate NY, if I have to hear another hardcore hunter lecture me on why I should not own an AR15, I'm gonig to scream.

Ive been lurking here some a while now and was thinking of buying an AK of some type but after seeing this shit you can sure as hell bet I won't be telling anyone here about it. I might buy something you guys won't approve of.



Sorry, that's nonsensical. The two aren't related. There is no direct correlation between buying an AK or AR and a gun being banned. There IS a direct correlation between making a pistol chambered for a round and having all AP ammo in that caliber banned.

It's an argument put up by the selfish who want to gain benefit from the gun community but are willing to screw it over for their own desires.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:07:34 PM EST
The only thing ANYBODY here has a problem with is a 5.45 caliber AK pistol. Thats it. Never heard anybody bad mount ANYTHING anyone else has ever bought or tried to build. (hesse excluded) People are just asking you take a larger prespective. Build one in 5.56 or 7.62. Everybody here would be glad to pay for a few mags through your pistol in 5.56 or 7.62 I'd imagine. Its not a personal thing. The opportunites to import millions and millions of mil spec russian surplus isn't going to last forever.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:32:54 PM EST
Rick, you're going to do what you're going to do. If you want to throw your dick around and make a pistol, fine do it but you realize that people will turn their backs on you like they have S&W and oly. We as gun owners have enough trouble with schumer and feinstein with out people like you handing over our privelidges. The ATF has and will ban this ammo if they catch wind of a pistol chambered in it. Its not a suprise, this isnt some bullshit law that was on the books that no one knows about. This is out in the open with warning. If you're going to do it put a vert grip on it and make it an AOW.

If you do make one and get this ammo banned you can gurantee that your name will be written in stone as a traitor to the gun community.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:43:53 PM EST
the one funny thing is that rick could have just built the pistol in private and told no one about it. Instead, he felt the need to come here and say 'screw you I'm building one" thus advertising it to any anti's or ATF people around.

Maybe he'll even be so nice to help out the AP ammo ban by posting pictures of his completed pistol that screws all of us over.

Lotta class there.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:43:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:46:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By bastiat:
Your argument is pure crap



It's not an argument you moron...it's an analogy and it fits.

It's clear that many here can't tell the difference so I will bow out of the great "phantom steel core 5.45" debate and let you folks write your own made up gun bans. Have fun.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:46:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:

well, for all the reasons you put down 5.45 in the above paragraphs, why not build a .223 pistol or 7.62x39 pistol?



likely because it will do nothing for his ego.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:49:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
Your argument is pure crap



It's not an argument you moron...it's an analogy and it fits.

It's clear that many here can't tell the difference so I will bow out of the great "phantom steel core 5.45" debate and let you folks write your own made up gun bans. Have fun.



you used your analogy as your argument, genius. And the 'ban' isn't made up. It's real. Look it up.

And thanks for the personal attack. It fits your character.

What we can tell is that there is a DIRECT correlation between a pistol being made in a certain caliber and AP ammo being banned in that caliber.

What we can also tell is that you don't give a crap if your actions result in that ammo being banned.

Which leads us all to believe you're willing to screw other gun owners over for your pet project.

Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:28:21 PM EST
Whoa, this is getting out of hand. I feel like Rick's avatar...

I was into the idea of a 5.45 pistol too, but if that means jeopardizing the future importation of milsurp ammo, then there is no goddamn way I would do it. There are more than just me out there enjoying the shooting.

Is there any way to confirm that impotation is going to happen, or is a good possibility? I think it was Jeep who knew of some on the horizon. A Krink pistol would be serious money, yet K-VAR and InRange are not advocating the pistol. Do they know anything? Can we check? Can we possibly get an ATF answer to this without raising any smoke signals?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:35:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Agrippa:
Whoa, this is getting out of hand. I feel like Rick's avatar...

I was into the idea of a 5.45 pistol too, but if that means jeopardizing the future importation of milsurp ammo, then there is no goddamn way I would do it. There are more than just me out there enjoying the shooting.

Is there any way to confirm that impotation is going to happen, or is a good possibility? I think it was Jeep who knew of some on the horizon. A Krink pistol would be serious money, yet K-VAR and InRange are not advocating the pistol. Do they know anything? Can we check? Can we possibly get an ATF answer to this without raising any smoke signals?




Read this thread in its entirety. It will give you some background.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:56:11 PM EST
I really don't think that homebuilt 5.45 pistols are going to be the four horsemen as far as the milspec penetrator ammo is concerned. However that being said the first "manufacturer" that puts one on the street is going to be toast. If you want a 5.45 pistol and you are an individual that can live with the potential consequences of such action then build it. Keep your mouth shut, and don't sell it. It IS legal it's just not wise.

Simple fact of the matter is SOMEONE has probably already built one or more and if they aren't privy to the information contained in this and similar threads are oblivious to the fact that there are legal ramifications to this action. Additionally don't be so blissfully ignorant to think that BATFE isn't aware of the potential for this build and some promotion hungry zealot that works for BATFE hasn't put it on his personal agenda to "leave his mark" as was the case with the Oly/Mars pistols.Reading the B-West link above makes it abundantly obvious that Oly was vilified for the personal gain of the agent in charge. Based on the same link Oly certainly could have conducted business on a different level, and are not beyond reproach.Ego's come into play and sensability falls by the wayside.

Personally I want a 5.45 Krink pistol so bad my teeth hurt. Instead I built an OA93 pistol(actually 2) to slake my thirst. If the 5.45 penetrator ammo gets banned I'll build a Krink pistol. If it doesn't it will remain in the untouchable category that it has been in for 10 years.

As was said in an earlier post emotions on this subject are running high and tempers flare easily( unneccesarily in my case, sorry Templar). Sometimes it is best to operate in the mist and not raise any flags or cruise for conflict. I believe that is the case with this highly controversial subject. There are people at both extremes and neither is right, moderation is the key. Don't start any shit and there won't be any.

All of the above stated is my opinion and I'm certain that someone won't like it. Oh well.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 5:01:33 PM EST
Build your pistol in 7.62x39. Insert cheap Romanian 75 round drum filled with Wolf or Barnaul ammo. Shoot. Repeat. Lots of fun. Doesn't screw up the chance for genuine Mil-Surp 5.45 importation. Seems simple, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 5:59:55 PM EST
This is an amusing thread.
Group "A" wants to build a curently leagle pistol. Group "B" says don't .
Who is right? Group "A" wants it just becouse they can. Kind of a selfish reasion. Group "B" wants cheap ammo. Kind of a selfish reasion too.
If group "B" is larger than group "A" does that make them "more" right? I honestly don't know or care.
I would like to build one of these pistols myself. I will wait though. If this cheap ammo shows up I'll probably buy 10K to 15K of it. Then I will build my pistol. But I will not tell any of "YOU PEOPLE" about it thats for damn sure.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:03:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By AW4EVER:
This is an amusing thread.
Group "A" wants to build a curently leagle pistol. Group "B" says don't .
Who is right? Group "A" wants it just becouse they can. Kind of a selfish reasion. Group "B" wants cheap ammo. Kind of a selfish reasion too.
If group "B" is larger than group "A" does that make them "more" right? I honestly don't know or care.
I would like to build one of these pistols myself. I will wait though. If this cheap ammo shows up I'll probably buy 10K to 15K of it. Then I will build my pistol. But I will not tell any of "YOU PEOPLE" about it thats for damn sure.



Group A wants a pistol or to sell a couple to the public.

Group B wants cheap ammo for all 5.45 shooters.

Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:20:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By AW4EVER:
Then I will build my pistol. But I will not tell any of "YOU PEOPLE" about it thats for damn sure.



Big +1 on that!

This whole issue is moot for me living in NY so I'm just an observer here. I have done a little more reading on the whole issue of 5.45 ammo this afternoon and I am coming to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if a AK-74 pistol is built or not.

Fact: Right now, today, there is no significant quantity of steel core 5.45 for sale in this country. This was also true on September 12th. Because this was the case prior to any 5.45 pistols being built, they can't, right now, be blamed for this fact.

There can only be 3 reasons why there is none of this ammo available today.
1. It doesn't exist.
2. There is no market for it
3. The ATF/Law is already preventing it from coming in for WHATEVER reason.

We know 1 isn't true so it must be either 2 or 3. I have no idea (or care) which one it is but logic will dictate that it doesn't matter then if someone or some manufacturer builds pistols in this caliber. With this being the case, why not build one? Either way, there is no ammo.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:38:29 PM EST
I would say there is no market for that .308 garbage coming from India, but it’s still widely available. Seems to me like AK-74s are becoming more and more popular. Also if you read, many countries switched from 7.62x39 too 5.45x39. These countries are now looking to once again upgrade there armies are going to 5.56. This means, just like they dumped 7.62, they will dump 5.45.

It’s natural, when countries switch out .223 for another round that along with the rifles that once used it will become available on the commercial market. I know several people licking their chops over the thought of LA85 and G36 parts kits. I don't just see 5.45 pistols as a threat to good ammunition supply, but in gun ownership as a whole. Just like the Tec-9 and Mac-11 there is no "legitimate" use for these weapons and they only bring bad attention to gun owners. An AK/AR pistol is neither a viable means of self defense or an effective sporting arm. It’s a novelty, one that is easily recognizable as "EVIL" and "Criminal" by the press and lawmakers. What if instead of banning importation of steel core, people get a little to uppity and ban ammunition importation all together (make the gun industry happy).?

Why cant people be happy with what they have? I'm just waiting for one of these stupid "pistols" to be used in a crime..
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 9:49:57 PM EST
GUYS...

Remember this:

NOWHERE IN THE LAW DOES IT SAY THAT IF A PISTOL EXISTS FOR A CALIBER, THEN 'AP' AMMO IS BANNED...

THE ENTIRE OLYARMS/7.62X39 PISTOL THING WAS CREATED BY **BILL CLINTON'S ATF PERSONELL** WHO DECIDED THAT THE EXISTANCE OF A 7.62X39 PISTOL MEANT 7.62X39 WAS 'DESIGNED FOR USE IN A PISTOL' (THE ACTUAL LEGAL STANDARD)...

So unless we get a new administration that decides to go ammo-ban crazy, you'll be fine...

The current folks haven't shown Clinton's enthusiasim for gun bans...
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 4:24:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By MooseNugget:

Originally Posted By AW4EVER:
Then I will build my pistol. But I will not tell any of "YOU PEOPLE" about it thats for damn sure.



Big +1 on that!

This whole issue is moot for me living in NY so I'm just an observer here. I have done a little more reading on the whole issue of 5.45 ammo this afternoon and I am coming to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if a AK-74 pistol is built or not.

Fact: Right now, today, there is no significant quantity of steel core 5.45 for sale in this country. This was also true on September 12th. Because this was the case prior to any 5.45 pistols being built, they can't, right now, be blamed for this fact.

There can only be 3 reasons why there is none of this ammo available today.
1. It doesn't exist.
2. There is no market for it
3. The ATF/Law is already preventing it from coming in for WHATEVER reason.

We know 1 isn't true so it must be either 2 or 3. I have no idea (or care) which one it is but logic will dictate that it doesn't matter then if someone or some manufacturer builds pistols in this caliber. With this being the case, why not build one? Either way, there is no ammo.



Have you ever been to ebay? People will actually buy "Britney Spear's fart in a bag". Dont tell me theres no market for it. And we know that both people will buy it and it is importable since chief thunder had 2 million plus rounds of it in customs when he got busted for the other shit. The fact that its not here yet has very little to do with the fact that it will be here eventually if we dont go and fuck ourselves.




Originally Posted By Dave_A:
GUYS...

Remember this:

NOWHERE IN THE LAW DOES IT SAY THAT IF A PISTOL EXISTS FOR A CALIBER, THEN 'AP' AMMO IS BANNED...

THE ENTIRE OLYARMS/7.62X39 PISTOL THING WAS CREATED BY **BILL CLINTON'S ATF PERSONELL** WHO DECIDED THAT THE EXISTANCE OF A 7.62X39 PISTOL MEANT 7.62X39 WAS 'DESIGNED FOR USE IN A PISTOL' (THE ACTUAL LEGAL STANDARD)...

So unless we get a new administration that decides to go ammo-ban crazy, you'll be fine...

The current folks haven't shown Clinton's enthusiasim for gun bans...




Oh yea that old cobra bit me with 7.62x39 ap and .308 ap but this new cobra most certainly wont. Remember these people are here to protect us from ourselves. They have laws to interpret and basically have to be moving on something all the time. ATF bosses dont want to hear "Theres no one to bust this week boss, everythings kosher" they want to hear "We busted those rednecks with those cop killer bullets boss. We're reading section xxxx like this now."


You can ignore the fact that there is legislation on the books that has screwed us out of 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 ap. But then when we get another caliber added to that list we have NO ONE TO BLAME BUT OURSELVES.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 2:01:29 PM EST
Wonder who this butthead works for BATFE maybe? They would never ever make up some bullshit like this to keep all that unwanted ammo out .Shit I have 2 74's myself and know many others also,that ammo brought in for 70 bucks a thousand would go so fast the importer would wonder where it went!!!!!!!!
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