Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/2/2005 1:53:00 PM EDT

i have a post ban hungarian SA85m. I want to un ban it but have a question.

How do I know if the parts I buy are really US made? Does the ATF make the companoes proofmark the parts? Lets say I install some parts amd I have an overzealous person check my rifle. How can I proive the parts are US made? Do I need to keep a reciept with me at all times?

Whats the legality about prving the parts are US. I saw some kits that looked real nice. Its just wood but I can find the other parts. How do I know if the wood is really US made?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:29:05 PM EDT
Some compliance parts are marked as US parts, some manufacturers don't do it. So the question goes both ways. How can it be proved they aren't US parts?

Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:09:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zedsdead:
Some compliance parts are marked as US parts, some manufacturers don't do it. So the question goes both ways. How can it be proved they aren't US parts?




Thats what worries me. If I un ban it, how can I really prove its legit? I just dont trust most LE (no offence guys) to know and for most, "when in doubt, confiscate"

The Factory buthole stock is actualy pretty comfortable though a little long. I just want it to look the way it is suppsed to.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:19:32 PM EDT
I believe that the burden of proof lies upon the ATF to show that said parts are not made in the USA.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:37:56 PM EDT
I think I will try to retain a copy of reciept and keep it if possible. I just dont trust some enough.

Anyone here unban their AK, did the equip denote US manufacture?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:14:54 AM EDT
actually the burden of proof is on us. all US manufacturers i've bought from have very visable MADE IN USA on them ATFE's position is if it is'nt marked it 's not USA
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 12:00:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NAVYRETIRED1:
actually the burden of proof is on us. all US manufacturers i've bought from have very visable MADE IN USA on them ATFE's position is if it is'nt marked it 's not USA



Thanks that what I was wondering. I saw some nice wood but it didnt have any US marking or anything.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:35:48 PM EDT
i dont buy that
i have alot of us parts with no marking on them
most us slants dont have anythang on them
us wood dosnt say anythang on it
older us fcg's and century fcg's dont have us on them

and that whole burdon off proof being on us is total bs
if they where to bring charges agist you the burdon would be on them think about it
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:40:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By socandyman:
i dont buy that
i have alot of us parts with no marking on them
most us slants dont have anythang on them
us wood dosnt say anythang on it
older us fcg's and century fcg's dont have us on them

and that whole burdon off proof being on us is total bs
if they where to bring charges agist you the burdon would be on them think about it



Exactly! The burden of proof always lies upon the prosecution. This is the USA where you are innocent until proven otherwise.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:41:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I think I will try to retain a copy of reciept and keep it if possible. I just dont trust some enough.

Anyone here unban their AK, did the equip denote US manufacture?



Wildboar,

I did exactly what you are about to do. I bought an RSA FCG and kept the receipt. In fact, I put the old FCG inside the same bag and stapled it shut and then stapled the receipt to it. I bought K-Var polymer furniture which does have 'US' stamped on it, but kept the receipt for it anyway. If I ever sell the rifle (snowball's chance in hell) then I'll make a copy of the receipt since I would be the 'manufacturer' and would want to later prove that I built it with US parts. I'd actually keep the old FCG and Choate stock that came with the rifle.

Couple of points. My SA85M came with a US polymer Choate stock and handguards so I kept the same handguards on it and just used the K-Var pistol grip and stock. It took a good amount of dremelling (of the stock of course) to get the stock to fit. It looks awesome.

Since the post-ban SA85M does not have a threaded muzzle, I think you can get away with just putting on a U.S. (1) stock (2) pistol grip (3) handguards (unless it is the black Choate one already in which case you can leave those on) (4) sear and (5) disconnector. Changing out the hammer is unnecessary (someone correct me if this is wrong) since you already have 5 parts and there is no muzzle device.

If you have wood then you'll have to switch out the handguards as well for U.S. parts.

I also 'un-banned' a post-ban Polytech AK but had to put the hammer in along with a U.S. muzzlebreak since the barrel was threaded. Well, it was threaded with a muzzle nut spot welded. Come September 14th I simply dremmeled off the spot welds, unscrewed the muzzle nut and screwed on a U.S. muzzlebreak.

How much did you pay for the SA85M?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:07:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I think I will try to retain a copy of reciept and keep it if possible. I just dont trust some enough.

Anyone here unban their AK, did the equip denote US manufacture?



Wildboar,

I did exactly what you are about to do. I bought an RSA FCG and kept the receipt. In fact, I put the old FCG inside the same bag and stapled it shut and then stapled the receipt to it. I bought K-Var polymer furniture which does have 'US' stamped on it, but kept the receipt for it anyway. If I ever sell the rifle (snowball's chance in hell) then I'll make a copy of the receipt since I would be the 'manufacturer' and would want to later prove that I built it with US parts. I'd actually keep the old FCG and Choate stock that came with the rifle.

Couple of points. My SA85M came with a US polymer Choate stock and handguards so I kept the same handguards on it and just used the K-Var pistol grip and stock. It took a good amount of dremelling (of the stock of course) to get the stock to fit. It looks awesome.

Since the post-ban SA85M does not have a threaded muzzle, I think you can get away with just putting on a U.S. (1) stock (2) pistol grip (3) handguards (unless it is the black Choate one already in which case you can leave those on) (4) sear and (5) disconnector. Changing out the hammer is unnecessary (someone correct me if this is wrong) since you already have 5 parts and there is no muzzle device.

If you have wood then you'll have to switch out the handguards as well for U.S. parts.

I also 'un-banned' a post-ban Polytech AK but had to put the hammer in along with a U.S. muzzlebreak since the barrel was threaded. Well, it was threaded with a muzzle nut spot welded. Come September 14th I simply dremmeled off the spot welds, unscrewed the muzzle nut and screwed on a U.S. muzzlebreak.

How much did you pay for the SA85M?



$325.00 I think. I had it since 93
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 3:42:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
$325.00 I think. I had it since 93



I got mine about 6 months back IIRC for $350. I'm guessing the previous owner bought it new and hadn't even put a box of shells through it. IMO, I think they are worth more but the fun shop owner got it on a trade with some other guns so he must have gotten a good deal on it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 4:34:48 PM EDT
Something else to think about. The law only prohibits assembly. It doesnt say anything about ownership. So, to successfully prosecute you, they would have to prove that you were the one who assembled it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:01:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ozzy_the_nuke:
Something else to think about. The law only prohibits assembly. It doesnt say anything about ownership. So, to successfully prosecute you, they would have to prove that you were the one who assembled it.



Is it possession or assembly that is a no go. I saw some obviously illegally converted AKs at shows before.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 7:46:17 PM EDT
See the words possession or ownership anywhere in the following text?


178.39 otherwise known as 922(r) 10 Foreign parts law on semiauto Rifles & Shotguns
http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html
Sec. 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the
provisions of Sec. 178.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:02:50 PM EDT
A legal opinion on this subject is located here:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/semi_auto_faq.txt

It says, in part:

Note also that section 922(r) only bans "assembly", it is not
a crime to possess a weapon "assembled" in violation of this
section. However it may be subject to seizure and forfeiture, under
some circumstances, if ATF can show it was assembled in knowing or
willful violation of the Gun Control Act, under 18 U.S.C. section
924(d)(1), by clear and convincing evidence.

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:15:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ozzy_the_nuke:
A legal opinion on this subject is located here:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/semi_auto_faq.txt

It says, in part:

Note also that section 922(r) only bans "assembly", it is not
a crime to possess a weapon "assembled" in violation of this
section. However it may be subject to seizure and forfeiture, under
some circumstances, if ATF can show it was assembled in knowing or
willful violation of the Gun Control Act, under 18 U.S.C. section
924(d)(1), by clear and convincing evidence.




So if someone replaces only 3 parts and then sells the rifle then the new owner is free and clear? I'd go to the BATF website but that is just about the crappiest place to get info about firearms laws.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:20:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 7:23:51 PM EDT by ozzy_the_nuke]
Well. The mag counts for 3 of the 16 parts in a stamped AK. So, if a guy builds a stamped AK using 3 US parts, it would only have 10 imported parts as long as a mag is not inserted. The AK would be legal for use in that configuration, as long as only US mags are used (and they are crap, BTW). The same goes for any subsequent owner. Any owner putting an imported mag in it would be assembling an illegal AK. So, the answer to your question is: The second owner would only be free and clear if he used US mags.

OBTW: If the 3 parts you are thinking of are the FCG, you have actually replaced 4 parts because the receiver also counts.

I know. This law is insane. Just imagine trying to enforce it.

Link Posted: 9/15/2005 7:44:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ozzy_the_nuke:
Well. The mag counts for 3 of the 16 parts in a stamped AK. So, if a guy builds a stamped AK using 3 US parts, it would only have 10 imported parts as long as a mag is not inserted. The AK would be legal for use in that configuration, as long as only US mags are used (and they are crap, BTW). The same goes for any subsequent owner. Any owner putting an imported mag in it would be assembling an illegal AK. So, the answer to your question is: The second owner would only be free and clear if he used US mags.

OBTW: If the 3 parts you are thinking of are the FCG, you have actually replaced 4 parts because the receiver also counts.

I know. This law is insane. Just imagine trying to enforce it.



Thanks, I forgot about the mag.

But don't you have to replace only the floorplate and follower on the magazine for it to be a 'U.S.' mag?
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:07:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 9:09:01 AM EDT by ozzy_the_nuke]
The mag has three counted parts: floorplate, body and follower. If you replace the floorplate and follower, it can be used legally with an AK that has a US receiver and FCG. My shooter mags are all that way. Good luck on finding a good follower these days though. The black Tapco ones dont feed well. The older orange style work better if you can find them. Other common (relatively inexpensive) replacement parts are the pistol grip, piston and muzzle brake.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:34:53 AM EDT
My earlier point was, for example, lets say you go to a gun show and buy an AK that is not 922r compliant. Now lets say that you get stopped at the door by the parts count police (there is a first time for everything, I guess). TECHNICALLY, you have not done anything wrong, because you did not assemble the rifle. What you do after you own the gun depends on how you value the following.

The chance of being prosecuted is extremely small.
Violating 922r is a felony (I would think).
The reward for not making the gun 922r compliant is that you save money.

Everyone has to do the math for themselves.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:54:11 AM EDT
I remember asking an ATF guy I knew at the show and he said that as long as he does not see you changing the stocks and stuff, he does not care how you buy , sell or posses it. As long as its not pointed at him. He said That its something almost impossible to enforce because many parts have no denotion of US mfr and there is no legal requirement for the parts to be marked. HE said and unless they were witnesses to the converting, or admitting conversion, its next to impossible to persecute. He had his hands full dealing with stolen guns and was more worried about finding them. He walked past many obviously converted rifles. Side folding stocked Mak90's etc. Didnt bat an eye.

I know he does not speak to the entire ATF, and the small 1% JBT agents are the ones I dont want to chance it with, even if there is no arrest, I still dont want my stuff taken.

Top Top