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Page AK-47 » Russian
Posted: 9/12/2004 5:16:59 PM EST
Howdy Fellows!

I've been looking for a 308 AK type to put in the mix for my torture test. The obvious answer would be a Galil, but we all know how difficult those are to come by.

The next thought I had was one of the Siagas, but they don't seem to be very amenable to magazine conversions as far as I've been able to tell.

Then I found the VEPR II at Robinson, and thought "this may be the answer".

While talking to one of (if not the) best FAL builders in the country, I brought up the VEPR II, and the fact that I was planning on putting one up against his FAL in the torture test. His response was basically that an AK in 7.62X39 would be as tough of a customer as there would be to beat in a torture test, but that the American caliber AKs (308 and 223) weren't as reliable due to the lack of dramatic body taper in the cartridge. According to him, part of the great reliability of the AK is due to the case design itself.

After hearing this, I called one of (if not the) best AK builders in the country, Marc Krebs. His response (actually Brian's) was that this probably wasn't the case, as he hadn't heard of any reliability problems with the 308. He recommended that I go to this forum, and ask for first hand feedback on the VEPR II in 308, to see if there are any known problems with reliability.

While this would be my first venture into a 308 chambered AK type, I can say that my 223 AK type has been as good as I could ask for. Good enough that it'll be taking part in the carbine torture test (along with a 7.62X39 version) to see what dominates.

Thanks for any help you can give!

-Bravo
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 5:19:23 PM EST
Forgot to mention, the VEPR II would need to undergo a magazine conversion. Marc does a Galil mag conversion, but I'm not too keen on dropping $1000 on mags, just to get 12 round capacity.

I'm thinking significantly on attempting to bribe him into doing a M14 magazine conversion. Any help or recommendations on this as well would be VERY welcome!

-Bravo
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:32:46 PM EST
I own a VeprK in 7.62 x 39 and a SAIGA in .223. Based on my experiences with the weight, feel, and recoil of my two weapons I would recommend getting a Vepr in .308 over getting a SAIGA in .308. The Vepr is a heavier built weapon compared to the SAIGA. This added weight should make it a better choice for a true battle rifle cartridge like the .308. Basically more fun to to shoot alot, like you were in battle, not necessarily better for climbing a mountain for one shot on a whitetail deer.

My SAIGA in .223 is great for plinking/carrying/hunting and would be a good "chick rifle" at the range due to light weight and low recoil. Probably not as fun plinking in .308. My steel scope mount and red dot sight gets kinda heavy on the Vepr at the range but is easier to deal with on the SAIGA. I keep the red dot scope on the SAIGA.

The heavier Vepr is probably better if you want to shoot alot and carry a little. Try to find one to hold with a scope on to see what I am talking about if you want to scope it. Hold it offhand for 30 seconds. You will tire so quickly you won't be needing 30 rd magazines anymore. Twenty rounds .308 is alot of extra weight to hold. The factory eight may be plenty.

I wonder if increased magazine capacity will come for either brand rifle after the ban? That might complicate my opinion on which rifle to get.

Either is a good value.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 2:41:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 7:20:40 AM EST
I just traded for a VEPR 308. Awesome shooter. I e-mailed Robinson Arms about the magazines. They said they have no knowledge of any higher capacity magazines coming available. They said it wasn't a AWB issue as much as just an import issue. I'm not sure I understand exactly what they meant, but i do know there are currently no mags available that will hold over 10 rounds for my VEPR.

I agree about the weight. 10 is enough!
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 9:03:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By gordonm1:
The heavier Vepr is probably better if you want to shoot alot and carry a little. Hold it offhand for 30 seconds. You will tire so quickly you won't be needing 30 rd magazines anymore.



Thanks for the input! As far as carrying versus shooting, I've been shooting the M14 for a LONG time. Kind of gotten used to the weight. Granted, I think it's supposed to be lighter full-up than the VEPR is unloaded. I doubt I'll be carrying anything too much for a while, here's the plan:

Take a rack grade M14 semi-auto, a PTR-91, an FAL, the VEPR (it would appear at this point), a M1 Garand in 308, and some type of ratgun (looks like possibly a Bushmaster 308, but I haven't got the ratgun yet), and clean them well. Run cases of ammo through them all, no clean or lube. This is the sustained fire / durability test. Follow that with a test at -40, lots of hot to bueried in snow, etc for an arctic test, at least a case through each. The sand test, which is basically like the arctic test, but buerying everything in sand between strings (mags and all). Ditto with mud. And then the river crossing / immersion test. I'm thinking when it's done, I'll have enough material to make a very well informed decision on what's what! Hopefully the book will sell as well.


Originally Posted By anykey:
I agree about the weight. 10 is enough!



I agree, but in reality, the PTR is over 9 unloaded, and by my calibrated elbow, the M14, Garand, and FAL are really close. If you think 10 pounds is fun, my M25 comes in at 17 pounds. Humping that pig around the mountains gets old pretty quick. It really shines though when you take a 600+ yard shot ;-)


Originally Posted By RS39:
Another on the board has some on-going experiments with (can't recall which AK model) & G3 mags.



I would LOVE to see this, if you've got a way that I can find it..... or an e-mail for the guy doing it. I've got a moderately large stack of HK stamped G3 steel mags..... I was hoping to use FAL mags on the ratgun since I've got a moderately large stack of them, and M14 mags on the VEPR. But since Marc Krebs doesn't do that conversion any more...... a conversion to HK mags would be EXCELLENT! Besides, in the grand scheme of things, I think that the HK mags are built stout enough they rival the good AK mags in 7.62X39.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:20:04 AM EST
I was wanting the VEPR 308 with a folder for a dedicated truck gun. Please post the results. I was also hoping to here some 20s were in the works, guess not.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 3:26:46 AM EST
The Saiga 308s with handloads are apparently shooting MOA at 500-600 yd.

If you figure a VEPR II 0.308 has a thicker receiver, thicker barrel, etc... it would pretty much shoot that and maybe even tighter groups???

The VEPRs are apparently very accurate AKs (short of going with an accurized genuine Dragonuv SVD) and the 0.223 and 0.308 models are shooting close to MOA. The VEPRs in 7.62x39 are still subject to the lousy cartridge ballistics at longer ranges. The best I've (I'm a beginner shooter) gotten is about 1.5 MOA at 100yd using Corbon 125gr JHP. It's FAR from being a handload so who knows...
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:54:05 PM EST
Hello, I have had my VEPR II for two and a half years now, and I have not had one malfunction of any kind. I have run about 1800 rounds through it, mostly these were military surplus rounds. My accuracy has been from .5 of an inch at 100 yards to 3.0 '' at 100 yards. I use South African and Portugese ammo. These numbers were done on a bench with a Bushnell 3 x 9 scope attached. But I enjoy shooting it without the scope better.

Other than 10 round and 5 round magazines only, I have no complaints about this rifle. Besides my other AKs, this is the most reliable rifle I own, and the most reliable .308 rifle I have ever shot.

I hope this helps.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:39:37 AM EST
Robinson said they were asking the Russians to make 20 rounders for the .308. We'll see.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:55:43 AM EST
Not good news on the high-cap mags in 308. I called Robinson today, since they're not all that far from where I live. What I got was that there were no plans to have any built, and at this point, none can be imported.

This has nada to do with the AWB, but with the import laws.

Similarly, I called HK today, to allow them the opportunity to talk me into purchasing a SL8. They didn't. High cap mags are NOT in the works with them, and they refuse to be very forthcoming on any plans. I was quite disappointed with the HK rep. I'll let the Germans know in February, at the SHOT show.

BTW, Robinson said that they were out of the 308 VEPRs, so not to bother bringing the FFL or cash until the beginning of November. Guess I put off purchasing one for a month or so...... Guess it'll just have to be a magazine month: 50 or 60 HK91 mags, and 50 or 60 AK74 mags (or 47 tanker 20's), whatever I can find.......

FWIW

-Bravo
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