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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/6/2004 8:10:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 8:12:19 AM EST by SSR-99]
By now most of you here know that Arsenal Inc has released some of their new stamped steel receiver AK imports. If not, just go to Arsenal Inc's website and check out their photos of it.
My opinion of them at this point is this:

The idea that these would at least be very desirable to residents of States like mine, New York, that still have the AWB in the form of a State law, came to mind. But......... even there, these new guns seem to fail because of their muzzle attachment. Being that the previous Federal AWB and the still valid NY State AWB allowed/allows for the use of a muzzle brake, why would Arsenal Inc offer their new stamped steel receiver guns with what seems to be a very gaudy looking muzzle end attachment. They could have used a permanently attached AK-74 style muzzle brake and been within the former Federal AWB and current New York State AWB regulations. It seems that these new stamped steel offerings may not only displease the folks living in the majority of the States that now allow AW configuration, but will most likely also displease the folks living in NY State that are only allowed the AWB configuration.

Going by the photo used on Arsenal's website, I really can't tell what that attachment is on the new rifle, but it sure does not look pretty. If it was actually possible to find an attachment that would be uglier than the SLR/SAM muzzle brake, then Arsenal may have done it with this new guns muzzle attachment.... LOL! :)

My suggestion to Arsenal Inc would be to keep up the ideas that they have going with their milled series. As far as their stamped series, keep bringing these Bulgarian imports in, and modify most of them to fill the wants and needs of the majority of the States that now allow pre AWB configuration. For States like New York, take a small amount of your total of these imports and configure them as the ones pictured on your website, but add a permanently attached AK-74 muzzle brake to increase their desirability.

IMO, your new importation of these stamped steel receivered Bulgarian AK's are going to leave most potential buyers in "all of the States" somewhat disapointed in that you did not configure the guns to fill the legal limits of their final destinations. Adding a fixed AK-74 muzzle brake for the NY destined guns, and bayonet lugs, threaded muzzle attachments, etc, to guns destined elsewhere in the US, would have been the correct way to go. IMO, of course ;)
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:21:59 AM EST
You should limit your posts to 15 words or less.

Your points would be more clear.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:27:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 8:27:59 AM EST by SSR-99]
Your right, here is my first short post for you.........

Screw You! Short enough for you?

LOL!!

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:29:59 AM EST
See, that post was 17 words and didn't work at all.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:32:35 AM EST
OK, sorry!

Here it is again, but shorter...... Screw You!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:24:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 9:25:00 AM EST by 1179]
lol,

I agree about making a major mistake . I wish arsenal would come to this and other web sites and ask what we want. I thought the whole purpose of these stamped rifles was to be competive with the romanian rifles. so if your reading Arsenal Inc. pls reply and let us know what is going on?
thank you

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:35:18 AM EST
Yeah, I don't get it either. Almost as if they don't want to sell alot of rifles. Sure seems an interesting way to do business if nothing less. Geez, I was all primed to buy 2 or 3 AKs from them but I have yet to see anything I'd spend money on, much less the ridiculous premium prices they are asking.

Anyone know where I can get a standard AK-47 with threaded muzzle, bayo lug, slant brake in 7.62x39?
I'd also like a folder or 2.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:41:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 9:42:59 AM EST by 1179]
well with out hijacking this thread there is rumors floating that new wasr 's are coming that have all the EVIL stuff you asked for. although i don't know about the folding stock.
sombody said they saw them in a new sog flyer



also vector arms has some folders out for about 500 i think.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:45:26 AM EST
They will sell all that they make and produce limited numbers of "evil" guns.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:58:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 10:14:19 AM EST by Thekatar]
I posted the following on K-VAR's and Arsenal Inc's message boards:

I am not sure that I understand Arsenal Inc. marketing strategy in this case, since K-VAR is currently sold out of the two specific components needed to convert this to the correct "fanged" configuration.

Here is a possible solution for this situation:

K-VAR should make the following available as a package:

AK-142B Bulgarian Front Sight Block and Gas Chamber combination
AK-025 RETAINER PIN, Front Sight & Gas Chamber to Barrel
AK-206B PLUNGER PIN Set, for AK-142B Front Sight Block
KR-007B FLASH HIDER ~ (Bulgarian) KRINKOV Flash Hider (5.45x39.5) With 24mmx1.5 threads

The only thing missing is the 500m rear sight (which can be purchased from Marshall Arms or Tantal) and you have the perfect makings for an SBR AK-105. If you want to go all the way a rear trunion and Russian side-folding stock are also available from Marshall and Tantal, but this would add considerable cost to the build.

I have already gone throught this process and obtained the tax stamp for my AK-105 Saiga build so I can provide info on what needs to be done and how long it would take, paperwork-wise. If K-VAR could get their hands on the 500m sights and/or folding rear trunions and stocks, they could offer the whole package at a discount and then perhaps some builders on these boards could offer the conversion service... group discount?

That's my suggestion to mitigate this potential fiasco.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:27:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 1:34:25 PM EST by SkullFarmer]
Here's my $.02.

They may have had to configure them thusly to get them into the country. That said, I sure do wish they were in the correct configuration.

****

Edit: I just had a look at their site. Could that ugly muzzle device actually be a cap over a threaded FSB? If that's the case and if it's only tacked on, it might not pose too much of a problem.

In any case, more information is needed.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:48:13 PM EST
SSR-99 you did fine! Time will tell what they decide to do! Those WASR's are do in by mid October!



1,000+lost post's!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:58:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:29:14 PM EST
What Campy said!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:37:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 5:15:27 PM EST by MPi-K]
The muzzle appears to be the standard AK74 front sight with the muzzle attachment threads milled/turned off.

If the price is good on these guns, they will probably sell a good number to people wanting a real European style AK74 recevier to work with.

From what I understand, these guns were imported in as sporters w/ thumbhole stocks and then modified. These guns were probably ordered/put on the ship before the 94 Ban sunsetted.
Hopefully the next batch will have the EVIL features.

But I agree with the above, they should have put regular AK74 brakes, bayonet lugs, etc on these rifles.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:54:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 3:16:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 3:21:03 PM EST
I was really hoping for a better product from Arsenal Inc. At this time, if can fold then it should fold. Give us a propper AK74 folder, please.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 3:45:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 3:51:39 PM EST by triage1998]

Can someone please post their web address so I can see what you guys are talking about? Google only gives Global Trades site as the top result.


www.arsenalinc.com/

Can someone answer me this. Who had the Arsenal name first???

Why the Hell did the other Arsenal use the same name? That always pissed me off.

When I was a wee NOOB I used to get them always mixed up and everytime I did a search I never seemed to get the Arsenal I was looking for LMAO
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 3:50:49 PM EST
I said the same thing the last time this came up:

Arsenal Inc's rationale makes no sense to me. The majority of the market is demanding no-ban rifles. But they decide to focus their production on neutered versions designed for a small minority of the market? It seems the main result of that will be the passing along of additional expense and hassle to most of the consumers they are trying to sell to.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 3:55:43 PM EST
I'm highly dissapointed in this new offering from Arsenal. What a letdown. What really pisses me off is that even though "WE" (internet AK geeks) have been screaming for a correctly configured AK-74 for years, no one in the biz seems to care all that much. I realize that on a whole that us internet geeks probably don't make up the majority of sales percentage wise, but joe blow on the street who doesn't care about correctly configured rifles anyway, will buy one no matter what it is configured as. Why not please "us" and sell the same amount of rifles to joe blow at the same time. We're the one's that are going to be pissing and moaning with calls and emails and rant posts, so why not save themselves the trouble of having to put up with that also?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:46:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By ClarenceDammit:
The majority of the market is demanding no-ban rifles. But they decide to focus their production on neutered versions designed for a small minority of the market?



ClarenceDammit,

The thing is, this new gun won't even properly fill the "small minority market" that you speak of.
Even here in New York State where we are stuck with a mirroring of the expired Federal AWB, Arsenal Inc still comes up short by having chosen such an ugly front end on their new rifle. They could have brought them in from Bulgaria (even during the Federal AWB) with a pinned on type AK-74 style brake. By them choosing the current muzzle end appearance, they have probably achieved a way to even turn off most of the potential New York State buyers.

It seems that these new offerings will fall short of meeting expectations in all of Arsenal's available markets (including NY State)
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:20:30 AM EST
Here's my theory. I talked to the guys at Arsenal extensively last year at the SAR Show. They were convinced the ban was going to be renewed and didn't want to think otherwise. They continued with this rhetoric up until the day the ban expired. They made a mistake! I think they have stocked up on a ton of post ban parts and need to get rid of them.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:30:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Here's my theory. I talked to the guys at Arsenal extensively last year at the SAR Show. They were convinced the ban was going to be renewed and didn't want to think otherwise. They continued with this rhetoric up until the day the ban expired. They made a mistake! I think they have stocked up on a ton of post ban parts and need to get rid of them.



I got a feeling they'll be making neutered rifles for a long time then...

Time to make other plans.
Man, did they blow it.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:03:39 AM EST
I fail to see the big problem here. For about $100 (at retail BTW) you can change the FSB over to the proper type, and is easily done yourself. By the time you are done, you have spent the same amount as having one built. Half the buyers wont care about the brake.

I feel they should offer it as an option.

The folder, well I am sure the the ATF wont allow Arsenal to import them with a folder mechinism even on a barreled action. That means they would have to install a folder stateside, which would raise the price even higher. What do custom builders charge to install an AKS-74 type folder? One price list I saw was around $200 in labor, plus the parts run around $100 (retail).
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:08:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Stottman:
I fail to see the big problem here. For about $100 (at retail BTW) you can change the FSB over to the proper type, and is easily done yourself. By the time you are done, you have spent the same amount as having one built. Half the buyers wont care about the brake.

I feel they should offer it as an option.

The folder, well I am sure the the ATF wont allow Arsenal to import them with a folder mechinism even on a barreled action. That means they would have to install a folder stateside, which would raise the price even higher. What do custom builders charge to install an AKS-74 type folder? One price list I saw was around $200 in labor, plus the parts run around $100 (retail).



Why in the hell would I pay that kind of money for a gun I have to send off to another smith and pay more money to make unoriginal?
They'll sell rifles alright but alot less than they would have. Seems downright stupid to me.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:37:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:39:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By triage1998:
Can someone answer me this. Who had the Arsenal name first???

Why the Hell did the other Arsenal use the same name? That always pissed me off.

When I was a wee NOOB I used to get them always mixed up and everytime I did a search I never seemed to get the Arsenal I was looking for LMAO



Triage, don't feel bad buddy, that happened to a lot of folks, LOL!
As it stands, Arsenal Inc will no longer have it's continuing products confused with that of Arsenal USA. Arsenal USA recently changed their name to "Armory USA"
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:52:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 6:01:26 AM EST by SSR-99]

Originally Posted By dragunov:
OK I got the link, thanks.

This is what people are having a problem with? The muzzle thingy?

www.arsenalinc.com/images/slr105big.jpg




Drugunov,
The muzzle end not having a pinned on AK-74 muzzle brake is probably the only mistake they made for filling the New York State market, but them not offering versions with a functional threaded on AK-74 muzzle brake or a flash suppressor, or having bayonet lugs or folding stocks, make them even less desirable for many of those folks that long awaited for the Federal AWB to expire. For those folks that can benefit from the AWB expiring, they probably want to take advantage of it, and not have to purchase something that will almost immediately need additional modification to get them to their full legal capacity (in terms of pre ban features).

That's all we are saying
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:58:54 AM EST
I've waited long enough for one of these and now will not buy it with that abortion of a front end. Money going off to someone else for a AK-74 type with proper features. Maybe Arsenal will have a liquidation sale for about $300.00 but I won't pay $500.00 for the pictured rifle just to get a side scope rail on a Bulgarian receiver and then have to wait for K-VAR to get the parts to convert it in and then send it off to be "fixed" at additional cost.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:47:38 AM EST
I just saw 4 of the new milled underfolders with flash hiders and fondeled one of them extensively. They had to pry my hands off of it!
Very nice!
I was somewhat shocked to see them here but this dealer has a close relationship with Arsenal and even stated that these were supposed to go to Lew Horton.
His price on them was $1049 and that leads me to believe that the $1200 advertised price is suggested retail, that also makes me think that the $400 and $490 for the new stamped 74's would street out about $325 to $400.
That beats the crap out of any Romanian rifle available that would need the same amount of parts and labor to make correct anyway.
Besides, Arsenal has already stated that these first 74's are just that.....competition for the Romainian rifles...thats a huge market that they want a piece of.

They also told us many times that they would have CORRECT 74's and 74's with side folders.

Chill out already, the ban has only been dead for not even a month. Give them a little time to build 'em right.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:27:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By AK-Joe:

Besides, Arsenal has already stated that these first 74's are just that.....competition for the Romainian rifles...thats a huge market that they want a piece of.





I just saw a bunch of romys beings sold in post ban config. Guess arsenal is behind the curve.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:37:30 AM EST
I just bought an Arsenal USA AMD-63-2UF for $600. Not sure if that's a great price, but I really wanted it! It is an underfolder with slant break and bayo lug, stamped receiver.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:10:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
I just bought an Arsenal USA AMD-63-2UF for $600. Not sure if that's a great price, but I really wanted it! It is an underfolder with slant break and bayo lug, stamped receiver.



Different company, but they have it right. Sell what the customer wants.

They will release "limited collector rifles from their custom shop". For the collector the guns will be correct. for the rest of us "screw you" there are qualified gunsmiths to do the work.

In their own words:

To all our AK-74 enthusiasts,

Please realize that our SLR-105 rifles are IMPORTED, and therefore must come in sporting a front sight block without muzzle threads or a bayonet lug. We have good reasons for releasing these guns in this configuration. We are under pressure from distributors to:
1) keep the price down; 2) provide a large volume of product; 3) still provide a higher quality product than any other manufacturer.

There are less than a hundred units in this first shipment and many, many more will follow. Our primary objective right now is to give as many people as possible a chance to own a rifle that we believe offers exceptional value and quality.

Since there are now many qualified AK gunsmiths and correct parts out there, it is a relatively small matter to add the original front sight block to give the muzzle threads and bayonet lug. Right now we cannot do this conversion without slowing down our operation. As we continue to develop this line, our Custom Shop will make available limited quantities of fully-equipped AK-74 and AKS-74 rifles with all original military features and Soviet specifications, for the collector market.

We have weighed our options carefully and have decided to release the basic guns themselves. There will be time later to customize them, but while we can bring them in, we have to concentrate on this.

Thank you for your patience,

Greg, Arsenal Inc.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 12:23:01 PM EST
There is a lot to learn about these damn guns! I knew I would have one some day.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 1:50:57 PM EST
Hmmm...I have a bad feeling about Arsenal doing a "collectors" run of AK-74 and AKS-74 rifles. Just look at the SAS M-7, they add a folder and increase the price by $300 over the SAM-7. Why? Its a "limited" or "collectors" run.

Hopefully the no ban Arsenal rifles will not have such a jack up in price.
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