Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/29/2005 2:34:40 PM EDT
I was shooting my SAR-1 at the range last week. Wolf 7.62x39 FMJ and JHP (seriously no difference). Most of the line was taken, so we got a spot at the very end, right beside the trees and shrubbery. There were some tree leaves and thin branches kind of hanging over in the path and swaying in the wind but we didn't think anything of it. We shot the heck out of a full-size sillouette at 50 yards.

At the end of the session, we inspected the silloutte, and I noticed something I have never seen before in the nearly 2000 rounds I've put through my AK...

Two rounds appeared to go into the silloutte SIDEWAYS. Instead of a round hole, there was a long, sort of bullet-shaped sliver. The wooden backboard (the public range uses old wooden doors an inch or two thick) was really messed up behind the hole on the paper... The round really gouged it out.

Clearly, the round was tumbling in those two instances. I thought for a moment why a couple rounds would tumble, and then I remembered the overhanging tree leaves and branches. I guess a couple rounds hit the vegetation, tumbled, and hit the silloutte sideways. If that silloutte was a real person, the damage would have been catastrophic.

The cool thing was that even though the rounds tumbled, they still hit on target! You've got to give credit to the mass of that 7.62... It just wants to keep chugging along.

Anyway I thought this was pretty cool considering all of the theoretical talk we've been having on this forum. It's nice to get actual first-hand accounts once in a while, you know?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 3:49:09 PM EDT
It certainly is refreshing to get actual reports, rather than armchair bullshooting. Thanks for the post.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 3:54:20 PM EDT
It's called Keyholing. Something is odd that it would hit vegatation thick enough to make it do this, but it still hit the target. Most of the time if it deflects the shot, it takes on a whole new path.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 1:04:25 AM EDT
and the bullet would do less damage keyholeing on a human/animal then if it would strike as intended. You do know that FMJ yaw in flesh right?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 1:42:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
It's called Keyholing. Something is odd that it would hit vegatation thick enough to make it do this, but it still hit the target. Most of the time if it deflects the shot, it takes on a whole new path.




It takes almost nothing to make bullets tumble.

I had a bunch of fmj 200gr 8mm Mauser rounds hit paper going sideways after hitting some small twigs. At first I didn't know what was happening, then I noticed a small plant about 50 yards out with some 1/8" twigs shot off. All of the tumblers hit the target.

The grouping was about 8-10", with the non tumbling rounds at 2" all shot at 100yds.

I think an AK round would behave much the same, esp at 50yds.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:23:17 AM EDT
Yeah, I don't think the tumbling AK rounds would change their path significantly enough so you could miss a human at 50 yards. And my own experience showed that those rounds did hit the silloutte. In fact, I think they'd be fine even out to 100 yards (but that's just speculation). Perhaps vegetation would have a greater effect on a lighter round, say, 5.56 or 5.45.

It doesn't really surprise me that vegetation, even light vegetation, would make a round tumble. Think of a football spiraling to its target, and someone's fingers skim the football as it flies overhead. The football's spiral might deteriorate and it will start to wobble but it will generally keep going in the same direction.

Would the round cause more or less damage? I really don't know. I know AK rounds tumble in the body, but that's after going through a few inches of flesh. What if it was tumbling to begin with? I would think it would do more damage because the round would be less stable and prone to yaw even more.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:41:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skypirate7:
Yeah, I don't think the tumbling AK rounds would change their path significantly enough so you could miss a human at 50 yards. And my own experience showed that those rounds did hit the silloutte. In fact, I think they'd be fine even out to 100 yards (but that's just speculation). Perhaps vegetation would have a greater effect on a lighter round, say, 5.56 or 5.45.

It doesn't really surprise me that vegetation, even light vegetation, would make a round tumble. Think of a football spiraling to its target, and someone's fingers skim the football as it flies overhead. The football's spiral might deteriorate and it will start to wobble but it will generally keep going in the same direction.

Would the round cause more or less damage? I really don't know. I know AK rounds tumble in the body, but that's after going through a few inches of flesh. What if it was tumbling to begin with? I would think it would do more damage because the round would be less stable and prone to yaw even more.

Ya'll are probably right about it just tumbling. Most of my experience with this is shooting a MUCH heavier round that does so much damage you can't tell how it entered usually. 7 mm rem mag Only thing I've ever shot through vegatation and still hit what I was aiming at.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 7:14:11 PM EDT
Maybe those two bullets were lighter/heavier than advertised and simply weren't stabilized.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 5:29:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skypirate7:
Yeah, I don't think the tumbling AK rounds would change their path significantly enough so you could miss a human at 50 yards. And my own experience showed that those rounds did hit the silloutte. In fact, I think they'd be fine even out to 100 yards (but that's just speculation). Perhaps vegetation would have a greater effect on a lighter round, say, 5.56 or 5.45.

It doesn't really surprise me that vegetation, even light vegetation, would make a round tumble. Think of a football spiraling to its target, and someone's fingers skim the football as it flies overhead. The football's spiral might deteriorate and it will start to wobble but it will generally keep going in the same direction.

Would the round cause more or less damage? I really don't know. I know AK rounds tumble in the body, but that's after going through a few inches of flesh. What if it was tumbling to begin with? I would think it would do more damage because the round would be less stable and prone to yaw even more.



I wouldn't want to get hit by one, a 7.62x39 can go through a fair amount of soft tissue before starting to tumble, having one hit sideways will certainly do more damage.

I imagine this happens all the time in combat.........caused me to think of our guys over there...not an abstract discussion for them.
Top Top