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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/16/2005 1:50:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 7:30:06 PM EDT by 1911Gunner]
Have already replaced my PG with a USA model, and want to put a wire folder on it. Would I be good to go? Hungarian SA85M - replaced thumbhole with new stock and PG, also going to replace wood furniture up front with Ultimak railed forends. Just trying to figure out if I have to replace all the parts on the 922r list


thanks,
Don
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:13:41 AM EDT
you have to have no more than 10 imported parts on your gun. that means, if you have a muzzle break on there you need to have 6 US parts. if not, 5 parts. also, the handguards count as 1 part combined.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 6:15:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 8:24:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:40:10 PM EDT
I guess Im confused about 922r. I bought the rifle from a reputable gun store.

I assume that it is 922r compliant at this point. Shouldn't I be able to go 1 for 1 and still be ok? I understand that both handguards count as one etc...but if I put a romanian folder on it and have the USA made PG, shouldn't that cover me?

Maybe I'm missing the boat here.

Don
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:50:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 4:58:37 PM EDT by dalesimpson]
If the buttstock is already foreign made then you most certainly may change the buttstock out for a folder with no problem. As long as your rifle is already 922r compliant then you can change out ANY FOREIGN made part you want for either another foreign made part or a US one.

ETA

The 16 countable parts in a AK with a muzzle device. No more than 10 of these parts may be imported.

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrel
(3) Trunnion
(4) Muzzle attachments
(5) Bolt
(6) Bolt carrier
(7) Gas piston
(8) Trigger
(9) Hammer
(10) Disconnecter
(11) Buttstock
(12) Pistol grip
(13) Forearm handguards
(14) Magazine body
(15) Follower
(16) Floorplate

Link Posted: 9/16/2005 4:55:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 4:56:09 PM EDT by Mak]

Originally Posted By 1911Gunner:
I guess Im confused about 922r. I bought the rifle from a reputable gun store.

I assume that it is 922r compliant at this point. Shouldn't I be able to go 1 for 1 and still be ok? I understand that both handguards count as one etc...but if I put a romanian folder on it and have the USA made PG, shouldn't that cover me?

Maybe I'm missing the boat here.

Don



You said you replaced the thumbhole stock, right. The gun store did not have to sell you a 922 compliant rifle as they sold it to you in an importable configuration, with a thumbhole stock. You are the one who changed out the rifle to a configuration which no longer meets the legal requirements. If the rifle is a stamped receiver with no muzzle attachments then you need to put the required 5 parts into the rifle.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 5:43:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911Gunner:
Have already replaced my PG with a USA model, and want to put a wire folder on it. Would I be good to go? Hungarian SA85M - replaced thumbhole with new stock and PG, also going to replace wood furniture up front with Ultimak railed forends. Just trying to figure out if I have to replace all the parts on the 922r list


thanks,
Don

Link Posted: 9/16/2005 6:48:08 PM EDT
I should clarify, I have not put a new stock on it yet, just the PG. Was looking to do the ACE route, but funds require me to look at alternate stocks as well.

Since the rifle was imported in the thumbhold configuration, can I assume that the parts on it are foreign? No muzzle device.

Mak, Im not sure what you meant by your post.

Don
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 7:05:16 PM EDT
So I guess to simplify my quandry...How do you know how many parts need to be replaced to be compliant. I didn't build the rifle so am I to assume that all the parts are foreign? Should I then replace 5 parts just to replace 1? Or replace 5 parts to mount 1 foreign?

I definately want to stay legal, but who has the burden of proof on the origin of parts on my gun?

Maybe I'm just missing the boat here...
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 7:30:20 PM EDT
Bump for Reply
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 7:36:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 7:36:54 PM EDT by 1Gunner]
its all about the sporting purposes clause

once you modify your gun that was imported as a sporting rifle to a non-sporting rifle you have to comply with 922r totally

in the list posted above, only 10 parts can be the original imported parts

since you already modified it to non-sporting you have to finish it up as soon as possible

all parts started as foreign, and if you don't have a muzzle device, than just replace any five parts in the list with US made parts, if you do have a muzzle device, change out six
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 7:43:18 PM EDT
1Gunner...Now I finally understand...THANK YOU!
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 8:42:31 PM EDT
Replace the 3 parts in the Fire Control Group as thedukeryan said and you can get one from him. If your pistol grip is a US manufactured one and you are replacing both of the front handguards then you will be legal and compliant.

The gunshop sold you a legal rifle. The minute you start changing that configuration by changing the imported configuration you have to follow the 10 imported parts rule. You can also change out parts in the magazines to get 2 parts (followers and baseplates) though you have to change them out in each and every magazine you will use in the rifle. This is harder to do now that thedukeryan can not obtain these parts like he once did from First Son Entreprises.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 8:54:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911Gunner:
So I guess to simplify my quandry...How do you know how many parts need to be replaced to be compliant. I didn't build the rifle so am I to assume that all the parts are foreign? Should I then replace 5 parts just to replace 1? Or replace 5 parts to mount 1 foreign?

I definately want to stay legal, but who has the burden of proof on the origin of parts on my gun?

Maybe I'm just missing the boat here...




The burden of proof is on you to prove you are in compliance, if you are found with a non-compliant rifle it can be confiscated. You might not have to spend 10's of thousands to stay out of a federal prison, but then again, you might. The BATF can arrest you even if you say you didn't convert the rifle incorrectly, how are you going to prove it. The cost of making the rifle legal to be in a configuration to have a pistol grip can be done for under $100.00.

The easiest parts to change out to U.S. manufactured parts:

Pistol grip (1 part)
Fire control group (3 parts)
piston (1 part)
Magazine baseplate (1 part in each magazine)
Magazine follower (1 part in each magazine)
both front handguards (replace both but counts as 1 part only)
Buttstock (counts as 1 part)
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 9:02:26 PM EDT


The burden of proof is on you to prove you are in compliance, if you are found with a non-compliant rifle it can be confiscated.


The burden of proof is on the government, innocent until proven guilty, etc. At least in theory.

There are a lot of US parts out there that are not marked. The government would have to somehow prove they are foreign, and not US made.

Yes it would be a hassle if you cannot easily prove it, but to say the burden of proof is on the owner isnt accurate.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 9:40:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clange:


The burden of proof is on you to prove you are in compliance, if you are found with a non-compliant rifle it can be confiscated.


The burden of proof is on the government, innocent until proven guilty, etc. At least in theory.

There are a lot of US parts out there that are not marked. The government would have to somehow prove they are foreign, and not US made.

Yes it would be a hassle if you cannot easily prove it, but to say the burden of proof is on the owner isnt accurate.




You want to bet? 19 years working in the DOJ. The BATF just has to show a grand jury enough evidence that the rifle is in an illegal configuration to get them to indict you. From that point forward, it will be up to you to prove that the rifle is in a legal configuration. If you believe you are innocent until proven guilty, explain that to the thousands of people sitting in federal prison for years waiting for their trial and those few(?) found guilty even though they may be innocent. The federal government will spend a hundreds of thousands or more to put you away if you will not plead guilty to even a minor charge. Of course, if you plead guilty you lose your right to own firearms. Once you enter the system, you are screwed.

You on the other hand will lose everything you own trying to fight the charges, even if the rifle is completely legal or not legal by accident. Why do you think that almost every manufacturer marks their parts with U S? Because ultimately, if you are found to have a rifle that an ATF agent says is configured illegally, then it is illegal, period, unless you are able to prove to a jury that it is not. Want to take that chance over $100.00 in parts to convert it legally? That guy shooting next to you at the range and comes over to check out your rifle very well might be a brand spanking new agent who just decides to arrest you and on that day your whole life is going to come crashing down.



I once saw a taxidermist go to prison for 2 years for stuffing 2 ducks for a guy without first checking to see if the customer had a migratory game stamp on his small game license. The customer was a confidential informant for the The Department of the Interior’s U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. CI most likely had been arrested and set the guy up to get off. Could have been an honest oversight on the part of the taxidermist, he still went to prison for 2 years, spent 10's of thousands of dollars for an attorney for what little good it did him and lost his source of income when he was released from prison.

The ducks very well might have been legal, but the taxidermist made the mistake of not proving it to the jury.

Innocent until proven guilty, tell that to the guys who spend 20 years in prison on a life sentence or awaiting their turn at the death penalty and then through DNA testing are found to be not guilty.

In the eyes of law enforcement, DA's, Federal prosecutors once you enter the system, you are guilty and they have more resources to prove you guilty than you have to prove you are innocent.

On my part, I spend my money on buying U.S. marked compliance parts for my rifles from the vendors here on the site. You can spend your $ on what you prefer, but don't come crying to the rest of us when you are out on bond awaiting your court date, saying how they have to prove you guilty. I think it was just a couple of weeks ago most of us saw the post about the guy with the MAK-90 who was arrested after buying it at a gunshow and taking it to the range and the guy next to him noticed it was one of the ones imported with a third hole plugged with a rivet. He didn't do it but he is screwed now, isn't he?
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 11:18:33 PM EDT

I think it was just a couple of weeks ago most of us saw the post about the guy with the MAK-90 who was arrested after buying it at a gunshow and taking it to the range and the guy next to him noticed it was one of the ones imported with a third hole plugged with a rivet. He didn't do it but he is screwed now, isn't he?

Come on, their policy is that a hole in that position is illegal, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to determine if there is a hole there or not. The fact that he didnt know it was illegal is irrelavant as to the question of guilt.

If a 922(r) case ever went up in court, the ATF would claim it was illegal, and any competent defense attorney would go through his defendants claims of which parts are US made, and insist the government PROVE ITS CASE that the defendent was in violation of the law. They have to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt. They cant just say "that part is foreign because it doesnt have US on it" when there is evidence that US parts with no such markings exist. You dont have to prove your part is US made, all you have to do is show that similar unmarked US parts exist, and force the ATF to prove that YOUR ACTUAL PART is foreign.

Only if you get a jury filled with complete retards would you get a 922(r) conviction when all the ATF can say is "Hey, thats illegal".

Could this be why we havent seen many (if any at all) 922(r) cases? Is the ATF going to spend a bunch of money on material analysis, to prove that an unmarked polymer pistol grip is actually foreign, or something equally trivial?

Our system may be screwed up to the point that it is actually guilty until proven innocent, but that doesnt change the fact that its supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Thats all I'm saying, and its sad that i'm being chastised on a GUN board for simply stating the way things are supposed to be. It should be innocent until proven guilty, and as such I'm not going to lose any sleep over the US parts I have that arent marked.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 11:28:54 PM EDT

I once saw a taxidermist go to prison for 2 years for stuffing 2 ducks for a guy without first checking to see if the customer had a migratory game stamp on his small game license. The customer was a confidential informant for the The Department of the Interior’s U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. CI most likely had been arrested and set the guy up to get off. Could have been an honest oversight on the part of the taxidermist, he still went to prison for 2 years, spent 10's of thousands of dollars for an attorney for what little good it did him and lost his source of income when he was released from prison.

The ducks very well might have been legal, but the taxidermist made the mistake of not proving it to the jury.


No, his mistake was most likely doing the work without making sure the ducks were legal. Whether or not they were legal is probably irrelavant, assuming there is a law that says taxidermists have to check tags or something similar. It would be like an FFL selling a gun from his inventory to someone without doing a background check. It doesnt matter if the buyer is legal, and its not that he failed to prove that to the jury, his failure was in breaking the law that required FFLs to perform background checks on every sale.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 12:15:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2005 12:26:48 AM EDT by Mak]
The fact is, there were MAK-90's imported into the country that had the 3rd hole in the receiver which was plugged by a rivet. These were sold to unsuspecting people who if caught with the rifles could and would be convicted of possession of a machine gun. Is it the person's fault that they didn't know the law? Will that keep them out of prison? Who is the burden of proof on once the individual is arrested?

A person in possession of an non-legal converted assault weapon can face the same problem.




any competent defense attorney would go through his defendants claims of which parts are US made, and insist the government PROVE ITS CASE that the defendent was in violation of the law




How much did that competent defense attorney just cost you to prove your innocence?



Ten years ago I spent $5,000 to have a competent defense attorney defend me in court for traffic fines after an accident, the case was in city court. I won but the cost was high. The police officer was found to have lied. Still cost me $5,000 and the attorney was a highly regarded criminal defense attorney who usually defended people in Federal Court in Tucson, AZ. I knew and worked with his brother so he took my traffic case. That was a traffic case that took 1/2 day, now estimate what the cost for a defense attorney in a criminal case of a trial in Federal Court .


Only if you get a jury filled with complete retards would you get a 922(r) conviction when all the ATF can say is "Hey, thats illegal".



Exactly, most people who sit on juries are not qualified to judge the guilt of anyone. Most people on juries are soccer moms, retired old ladies and liberals. Do you want those people to be the "jury of your peers" if you go to court with the BATF testifying for the prosecution that you were in possession of an illegal assault weapon? That jury of your peers is most likely going to have it in their heads that you are in possession of an illegal machine gun. They saw these on Oprah.

To get an indictment before a grand jury the prosecution does not have to prove you guilty of anything. All they have to do is show enough evidence that the grand jury believes you may have done something illegal. You aren't going to have a "jury of your peers" in court. Knowledgeable gun-owners do not make up the majority of juries in any court I have been in.

Just don't let anyone handle your firearms at the range unless you have known them your whole life, don't ever commit any traffic offenses with your firearms in your car, don't ever get into an arguement with your wife/girl-friend/child in which the neighbors might hear you and call the police (because in most places if the police come to your house and think you were involved in an arguement with anyone, your guns can be confiscated for a cooling off period).

Did anyone who was an expert in firearms write the laws which deal with compliance parts in firearms? Not likely. Who interprets what is legal in regards to firearms for the Department of Justice when it comes to prosecution of what is legal.

The story about the ducks is told to show how what seems to be a minor oversight can get you 2 years in prison. The thing has nothing to do with what a officer catches you doing, it just takes a criminal who wants a reduced sentence to say that you are doing something illegal to get you arrested.

People get arrested and end up in Federal Prison for things which make no sense at all to me. Pick up a piece of dead wood or a rock in a National Park and you can find yourself arrested and sitting in a prison awaiting your first day in court, better hope the judge sets a bail you can afford.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 12:38:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mak:
Is it the person's fault that they didn't know the law?


Yes.


Will that keep them out of prison?

No.


Who is the burden of proof on once the individual is arrested?

The burden of proof is on the prosecutor, but since its easy to prove that a reciever with a hole in it is illegal, then the defense must then prove its case. Ignorance is no defense, so i'm sad to say the guy is screwed.


A person in possession of an non-legal converted assault weapon can face the same problem.

Yes, but the weapon is proved to be illegal, we're not talking about a weapon that is claimed to be illegal but not proven.


How much did that competent defense attorney just cost you to prove your innocence?

Maybe a lot, but i admitted as such in my post when i said it could be a serious hassle. I was not debating the fact that defending yourself would be expensive, i was simply contesting the statement that the burden of proof is on us.



Only if you get a jury filled with complete retards would you get a 922(r) conviction when all the ATF can say is "Hey, thats illegal".


Exactly, most people who sit on juries are not qualified to judge the guilt of anyone. Most people on juries are soccer moms, retired old ladies and liberals. Do you want those people to be the "jury of your peers" if you go to court with the BATF testifying for the prosecution that you were in possession of an illegal assault weapon? That jury of your peers is most likely going to have it in their heads that you are in possession of an illegal machine gun. They saw these on Oprah.

To get an indictment before a grand jury the prosecution does not have to prove you guilty of anything. All they have to do is show enough evidence that the grand jury believes you may have done something illegal. You aren't going to have a "jury of your peers" in court. Knowledgeable gun-owners do not make up the majority of juries in any court I have been in.


I understand this, and i agree that simply not being able to prove your weapon is legal could get you in a very shitty situation. But, i would hope at least some jury members would understand how things work when the fact that the state has to PROVE its case was explained. If not, well we're a nation of idiots, not much we can do about it i guess.


Just don't let anyone handle your firearms at the range unless you have known them your whole life, don't ever commit any traffic offenses with your firearms in your car, don't ever get into an arguement with your wife/girl-friend/child in which the neighbors might hear you and call the police (because in most places if the police come to your house and think you were involved in an arguement with anyone, your guns can be confiscated for a cooling off period).

Did anyone who was an expert in firearms write the laws which deal with compliance parts in firearms? Not likely. Who interprets what is legal in regards to firearms for the Department of Justice when it comes to prosecution of what is legal.


It doesnt matter that they interpret what is legal, that has no bearing on what is or isnt factually legal. They can say such and such is illegal, but when it ends up in court they still have to prove the weapon is in whatever condition they interpret to be illegal.

Some of my firearms likely have parts that are not marked. I think my AKS-74 build has marked parts, but i know the pistol grip is not marked. Am i just screwed if the ATF sees me with it at the range? On my SARs the parts are not marked at all, none of them. Now, maybe i could show that CAI sufficiently replaces parts, but in reality, i'm not concerned about it. If the ATF comes after me, they're going to have to prove specific parts on my rifle are foreign, because that will basically be my whole defense (what else do i have?), drilling into the heads of the jury that the state has to PROVE its case. Hopefully all 12 wont be idiots.

I understand what you're saying about protecting yourself from the situation, i just have problem with the notion that the burden of proof is on us.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 2:44:51 AM EDT
I also have unmarked U.S. parts in some of my rifles. As far as I know, a FCG that is cast will be a U.S. part. I have foreign FCG parts in sealed bags marked as such from the sellers. By checking Chinese, Bulgarian, and Romanian Fire Control Groups they all appear to be milled.

I have been changing all of my FCG's out to TAPCO G2 or the old Gordon Tech G2 to make sure there is no question. I bought some cast FCG's from one dealer that were not marked and I asked how I could be sure that they were US parts if questioned. He told me I better keep the receipt which says US made FCG. This was from a manufacturer and dealer in parts.

K-VAR has milled US FCG's marked KV , Century marks some of their FCG's with a small "C" but not all (cast). FSE used to make FCG's with no markings but others were marked FSE. Hesse did not mark his FCG's that I have seen but the trigger and hammer were cast.

I have black pistol grips which have no US marking but came on Century rifles and all that I have seen have a notch in the mould that was used to make them.

To protect myself on a rifle that has one of these questionable parts, I change out the followers and baseplates in the mags with the FSE parts I got from vendors here on the board to make sure I have more than enough compliance parts.

When I had my AK-74 parts set built into a rifle, I went with a Global Trades receiver (1 part), a complete K-VAR US marked stockset (3 parts), a TAPCO marked FCG (3 parts) for a total of 7 parts. I have an Arsenal marked piston in my parts bin which will be installed on the bolt carrier when I get some time.
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