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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/23/2004 11:18:48 AM EST
Hello All.

At a gun show last weekend, Sept 17ish... I attempted to trade a Romanian SAR-1 with a folding Romanian wire stock attached. As I understand it, the weapon was still legal after adding the folding stock because the rifle had the correct number of US parts count to be 922(r) compliant. The dealer quickly handed me the rifle back and said he was not interested in taking it in on trade telling me, "I don't want to jeopardize my FFL. That's an illegal weapon and I could lose my license".

As I explained it to him the weapon was legal since the 94 ban expired and the weapon had the US parts count required under the 89 import ban. He argued that no imported weapon could have a folder added to it as that construed a contra-ban Imported "non-sporting" weapon. He then referenced a note from the ATF which discussed the laws regarding imported non-sporting firearms which is in this link as quoted by Forest:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=64052

Is this just another example of an ignorant dealer or was I in possession of a contra-ban illegal weapon? AFAIK, isn't a firearm with the US parts installed considered a "domestic" firearm & therefore was legal to convert to a "non-sporting weapon"?

When he showed the Q & A to me, I said exactly- if it has the parts count it's domestic and can be converted to a weapon having "non-sporting" characteristics. His next sentence really caused me to doubt his comprehension of the law. "Yes you can then add a regular stock if the US parts count is utilized but, if it was an imported weapon it can never legally have a folding stock unless it was imported pre-89".

Can anybody direct me to the truth in all of this, I still think he's wrong and intend to get another Romanian AK to slap my now spare folder onto... (He did take the rifle in trade after I removed the stock and added the fixed wood one back on) The whole epsisode just made me go in the face.

TIA.

Sly
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 11:20:47 AM EST
he is ignorant, if not a shit load of us are in but trouble for folding stocks on our AKs, HKs, and other foreign goodies
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 11:25:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 11:26:19 AM EST by I-M-A-WMD]

Originally Posted By jimmyjoebob:
he is ignorant, if not a shit load of us are in but trouble for folding stocks on our AKs, HKs, and other foreign goodies



That was one thing I mentioned...

I feel confident in my interpretation of the law, but I think his stupidity allowed a momentary lapse in my certainty which caused me a spell of temporary confusion.... In on other words, on the inside, the dealer caused me to spin into a dimension of pissed off I have seldom ever been in.

Sly
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 11:39:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 11:44:10 AM EST by AR-15Fan]
Although the text of the law is arguably a little confusing, the ATF was made official statements that make it pretty clear. IF the weapon is assembled with enough US parts it's not subject the importation requirements, then it can have all the evil features available. Period, end of story (as long as it doesn't run afoul of any of the long standing NFA crap of course)

I've found gun dealers to without a doubt be the worst source for accurate gun info there is. Well, maybe with the exception of the local range nazi/know-it-all types, but they're just trying to become dealers probably... You'd think people in the business would actually know what the heck they're talking about, but nooooo... Makes no sense really, if I'm not fairly sure I don't open my mouth, or I at least make it known I'm not sure. But gun dealers will swear up and down you're 100% wrong even in the face of direct proof. It flies in the face of logic... I guess they have to deal with know-it-alls all the time too, but you'd think they'd at least be open to seemingly well informed customers when they're not sure on an issue, and then check for themselves later. But again, noooo...
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 11:52:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 11:52:38 AM EST by I-M-A-WMD]
AR-15fan-

I bit my tongue real hard as I walked away- I was going to ask him exactly how many differing levels of "non-sporting" he thought there was. From his info it sounds like there are at least several tiers:

Tier 1- Sporting weapon aka- Granpa's lever gun.

Tier 2- Sporting weapon possible AW- aka neutered MAK90 with t-hole stock

Tier 3- Non-Sporting yet legal- SAR-1 w/ US parts which allows Flash hider, threaded barrel, and pistol
grip w/ standard butt stock.

Tier 4- Non-Sporting legal Domestic rifle- Colt SP1 etc

Tier 5- Imported weapon w/ US parts + folding stock= Contra-ban.

Tier 6- Imported weapon or domestically built weapon of more than 10 imported parts= Contra-ban.

Hence the reason I ended up on cloud 7 in pissed off demensia.... Wow, thinking about it, my head really hurts!

Sly
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:11:55 PM EST
When you see him at a future gunshow with dealers all around him selling rifles configured as yours point out to him what an ignoramus he is. (I had a better word for him but thought better of posting it)
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:16:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mak:
When you see him at a future gunshow with dealers all around him selling rifles configured as yours point out to him what an ignoramus he is. (I had a better word for him but thought better of posting it)



I hear you. His reasoning was and I quote, "If they were legal- everyone would be selling them." I responded with the fact that the 94 ban had only been dead for 5 days so supply isn't there but he could mark my words they would be available.

Then he yelled at the top of his lungs. "Shut your cockholster or I'll ban you from my tables!!!" Sorry I had to make that part up for added effect. It wasn't that he was a biligerant jerk- he was just so dumb.

Sly
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:21:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By I-M-A-WMD:

Then he yelled at the top of his lungs. "Shut your cockholster or I'll ban you from my tables!!!" Sorry I had to make that part up for added effect. It wasn't that he was a biligerant jerk- he was just so dumb.

Sly




Was he dressed as a fake Navy SEAL?
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:23:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:33:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 12:34:13 PM EST by I-M-A-WMD]

Originally Posted By Mak:

Originally Posted By I-M-A-WMD:

Then he yelled at the top of his lungs. "Shut your cockholster or I'll ban you from my tables!!!" Sorry I had to make that part up for added effect. It wasn't that he was a biligerant jerk- he was just so dumb.

Sly




Was he dressed as a fake Navy SEAL?



Well I guess my humor is sending this thread down into histerics so might as well ride it out. No, but I'm sure he has a friend who is or knows a Navy Seal... That's probably verifiable, but due to Op Sec not currently possible.


By RS39: Good to have you around :)


Seriously if it weren't for my sense of humor and this site. I wouldn't know to be pissed off! It's great to be here.

Sly

Link Posted: 9/23/2004 12:57:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 3:56:40 PM EST
Sporting doesn't matter.

The whole idea behind the parts count is that it simply ceases to be viewed by the law as a foreign made rifle, and therefor can take on any configuration which can legaly be had with a domestic rifle.
.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 4:06:34 PM EST
I bought a WASR10 (CAI) and wondered about the same thing. I emailed Century and asked them if the stock was US or Romanian. Here is their response:

"As it was assembled, the rifle should have a US made piston, pistol grip, hammer, trigger, and sear. There may be some other small parts as well that were added as needed, but they are not on the list, and usually are not noted."

Therefore, at least with my WASR, I would be swapping out a Romanian part for another Romanian part. Legal. I imagine your SAR is the same, but email them and make sure. Then you'll KNOW.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 2:56:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2004 3:02:08 AM EST by noah]
Could be ignorant, or maybe a bit uncomprehending, or maybe he listens to too many of his peers during the late Saturday afternoon lulls in show traffic.

But it might just be his way of saying "I'm not interested."

The reason that I say this? 1) Some people have difficulty saying "No" straight-up. 2) A few dealers that I know are very leery of trading into obviously modified SKSs and AKs for leagal reasons, w.r.t. both 922 and liability. One dealer that I know quite personally will NOT take milsurps on trade, because in his mind there's no "manufacturer" to fall back on (or to point to) in the event of a liability suit. I've pointed out that the importer is just as good as a manufacturer when and if it comes to naming co-defendants, but his policy is "Haende aus."

Maybe your guy was in a way saying "No" to the deal, but making "922" to be the bad guy, not him.

Just a thought.

Noah
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 5:24:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 5:27:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By noah:
Could be ignorant, or maybe a bit uncomprehending, or maybe he listens to too many of his peers during the late Saturday afternoon lulls in show traffic.

But it might just be his way of saying "I'm not interested."

The reason that I say this? 1) Some people have difficulty saying "No" straight-up. 2) A few dealers that I know are very leery of trading into obviously modified SKSs and AKs for leagal reasons, w.r.t. both 922 and liability. One dealer that I know quite personally will NOT take milsurps on trade, because in his mind there's no "manufacturer" to fall back on (or to point to) in the event of a liability suit. I've pointed out that the importer is just as good as a manufacturer when and if it comes to naming co-defendants, but his policy is "Haende aus."

Maybe your guy was in a way saying "No" to the deal, but making "922" to be the bad guy, not him.

Just a thought.

Noah



Not sure if you caught it Noah, but he did take the SAR-1 with the standard furniture in trade for a Pre-89 Chicomm AK. This guy should be knowledgeable on the laws as his main line of weapons have been pre-ban ARs, AKs, as well as magazines. He was the only guy at the show selling LEO marked pistol mags, Mini-14 mags and AR mags. (Which should signal he's got a good grasp on what laws are or are not in effect) Hell I've traded at least a few guns to him in the past as well as somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 assorted standard cap mags.

I'm fairly certain he'll eat crow the next time I see him.... But I think he has to be stupid on some level as he's "In the business of"- he should be more knowledgeable concerning the laws which govern his livelihood.

In the end, I'm more than willing to tack it to the JBTs at the ATF- The guy is probably just not comprehending the laws and doesn't wish to chance A) Lose his livelihood or B) Squeal like a pig behind a vertical bar motif.

Sly
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 7:53:56 AM EST
The bottom line is if you have the required number of US parts,it not an imported firearm.Thats why you add the US parts.
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