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Posted: 6/17/2011 11:58:33 AM EDT
I am very new to AK's and my heart is set on a AK74. Now, I have bounced idea's off my head like crazy and my budget has rised from 400 to 700.00    

Well... I was sold on the Waffen Werks because they look beautiful, but it's 699.00 plus shipping and fll etc etc.. But a local gun store owner said if I buy the Saiga for 450.00 he will convert it fully for me with a threaded barrel, muzzle break, butt stock, trigger, and trigger guard for 710.00   He say's he buys all brand new unused parts. And he says he stands behind his work.

Now.. My question, should I shell out the 710.00 for the Saiaga converted. Or just pay 90 more fore a Aresnal... Or save some $$$ and grab the Waffen Werks

Thanks
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 12:09:15 PM EDT
I only have experience with the Arsenal SGL 31-61. And it is without a doubt the best AK I have handled/fired. If you want to support your local gun store go with the Saiga I guess. You will not be dissapointed with the Arsenal. Good luck!
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 12:11:07 PM EDT
If I were you I'd either go with the Waffenworks or an Arsenal AK.  I have heard that Saigas won't accept surplus magazines, which in my opinion is ridiculous.  (They take only magazines made especially for Saigas.)  Lot's of other folks here in the forum rave about Waffenworks' AKs and Arsenals have an excellent reputation.  Depends on your personal preference.   The only real tie breaker, other than cost is this:  Do either of these two rifles come with an original chrome lined barrel?  Go with the chrome lined one if you can.
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 12:11:22 PM EDT
There is no way you can go wrong with a Aresnal rifle.
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 12:16:04 PM EDT
Arsenal!!
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 12:17:27 PM EDT
For the price difference there I would pony up for the Arsenal. Saiga conversions are great for diy (I wouldn't trade my self-converted 5.45 for anything), but to pay someone to do it gets too expensive, and you could just buy one that you know is right for a few bucks more. I personally wouldn't pay someone to convert a Saiga, even a full front end conversion. The labor cost is where it adds up fast. It's not too much work, but why pay that labor, when you can get an Arsenal just a few bucks more?
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 12:26:45 PM EDT




Originally Posted By Okieboy782:

If I were you I'd either go with the Waffenworks or an Arsenal AK. I have heard that Saigas won't accept surplus magazines, which in my opinion is ridiculous.

It is ridiculous.  Its also untrue.
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 12:28:37 PM EDT
Yeah that's what I was thinking.. Ok thanks for the advise guys!!
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 1:34:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Okieboy782:
I have heard that Saigas won't accept surplus magazines, which in my opinion is ridiculous.  (They take only magazines made especially for Saigas.)


Not sure where you heard that from, but considering I own an SGL 31-61 and also own several surplus 74 mags, I can tell you that your statement is false.

The only Arsenal Saiga magazine I have is the 10 rounder that came with it. The other 3 mags I have are all Bulgarian surplus 74 mags, and they fit perfectly.

I'm sure the Waffen 74 is also excellent, but I'd go with an Arsenal SGL 31. You can't go wrong with it - it's the real deal and it doesn't fail to impress whatsoever - a true performer and head-turner.

Link Posted: 6/17/2011 1:51:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wayfaerer320:
Originally Posted By Okieboy782:
I have heard that Saigas won't accept surplus magazines, which in my opinion is ridiculous.  (They take only magazines made especially for Saigas.)


Not sure where you heard that from, but considering I own an SGL 31-61 and also own several surplus 74 mags, I can tell you that your statement is false.

The only Arsenal Saiga magazine I have is the 10 rounder that came with it. The other 3 mags I have are all Bulgarian surplus 74 mags, and they fit perfectly.

I'm sure the Waffen 74 is also excellent, but I'd go with an Arsenal SGL 31. You can't go wrong with it - it's the real deal and it doesn't fail to impress whatsoever - a true performer and head-turner.



The SGL's aren't basic saigas, they've already had the conversion work done on them.  Some saigas need extra conversion work to use surplus magazines (like a bullet guide installed, and I've heard of the mag catch needing replaced or filed down).

To the OP.. I'd get the Arsenal.  It is a much more complete conversion than it sounds like your dealer will be doing for you for only $90 more.  The cost of the parts to do the rest of the conversion is more than $90.. so go for the Arsenal for sure.
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 2:06:34 PM EDT
When every you have to option to purchase a rifle from a company it is always better then some guy putting in together for you. (who knows if he is good or not)
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 2:11:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2011 2:13:24 PM EDT by Lakemoor]
If you want the quality I'd go Arsenal.  Your local guy might do fine work but I wouldn't risk it unless you know somebody that got the same package.  If you want good value go Waffen Werks and load up on some mags and ammo.  Aim Surplus recently got some used 74 mags.  Maybe buy some of those first before they run out.

I'd have a hard time picking from the Waffen Werks for good quality/decent price or this Arsenal triangle folder which would kill your budget.  
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct944.aspx
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 2:12:18 PM EDT
Well - I went to his shop, looked around haggled a but on the price and I decided to pull the trigger. Now I need to know if i'm an idiot or I did decent..

Orignal Saiga (unconverted)
tapco pistol grip
1 30 rd circle 21 magazine
tapco quad rail system
and a tapco fixed stock
muzzle break (flash hider)

All for 700.00 OTD.. He wanted 710.00 plus taxes, and I aruged a bit.. Sooo 700.00 otd for a fresh conversion I don't know how well I did or how bad I did. Before I bought I asked to see his old work, he has been converting Saiga's to convert for customers for years.. They looked, clean and well built..

Sooo... How did I do?
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 2:18:46 PM EDT
I would go with the SGL-31 from AIM Surplus.  The have a coupon code in their Industry Forum.
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 2:37:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:
Well - I went to his shop, looked around haggled a but on the price and I decided to pull the trigger. Now I need to know if i'm an idiot or I did decent..

Orignal Saiga (unconverted)
tapco pistol grip
1 30 rd circle 21 magazine
tapco quad rail system
and a tapco fixed stock
muzzle break (flash hider)

All for 700.00 OTD.. He wanted 710.00 plus taxes, and I aruged a bit.. Sooo 700.00 otd for a fresh conversion I don't know how well I did or how bad I did. Before I bought I asked to see his old work, he has been converting Saiga's to convert for customers for years.. They looked, clean and well built..

Sooo... How did I do?


Since you asked, you should've gone with the Arsenal IMHO.  Doesn't mean you are an idiot, just means you have a Tapco furniture Saiga.
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 2:48:52 PM EDT
ahh, well from AIM it would be 799.00 for a Aresnal.. Here I saved 100.00 but... I'm already not super pleased about it. I guess I'll have to see it and post pics after he is finished with it
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 3:22:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By T2OPFOR:
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:
Well - I went to his shop, looked around haggled a but on the price and I decided to pull the trigger. Now I need to know if i'm an idiot or I did decent..

Orignal Saiga (unconverted)
tapco pistol grip
1 30 rd circle 21 magazine
tapco quad rail system
and a tapco fixed stock
muzzle break (flash hider)

All for 700.00 OTD.. He wanted 710.00 plus taxes, and I aruged a bit.. Sooo 700.00 otd for a fresh conversion I don't know how well I did or how bad I did. Before I bought I asked to see his old work, he has been converting Saiga's to convert for customers for years.. They looked, clean and well built..

Sooo... How did I do?


Since you asked, you should've gone with the Arsenal IMHO.  Doesn't mean you are an idiot, just means you have a Tapco furniture Saiga.


I agree.  The Arsenal is 100% converted to as close to a military AK as you can really get.  Proper gas block with the retainer for the cleaning rod.  Proper front sight base threaded for any AK74 muzzle device.  They can use any standard AK stock set.

For only $100 more I think the Arsenal is a better buy.  It sounds like this Saiga conversion is kind of a half conversion (pistol grip and stock only) with the tapco handguard and flash hider to fill in the gaps.  The Saiga will make a fine shooter though, just as good as the Arsenal in that area.
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 3:38:29 PM EDT
Is it a full conversion - front end and pictol grip?  Or just moving the pistol grip forward?
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 4:29:33 PM EDT
Cancel the Saiga and the Tapco crap and get the AIM Arsenal, you will not regret it!
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 5:18:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Farmer-Ted:
Is it a full conversion - front end and pictol grip?  Or just moving the pistol grip forward?


I'm not 100% sure yet to be honest.. I guess I should call and ask him
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 7:35:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:

Well - I went to his shop, looked around haggled a but on the price and I decided to pull the trigger. Now I need to know if i'm an idiot or I did decent..



You did not do decent.
Why ask for help if you intend to reject it?
Link Posted: 6/17/2011 8:49:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Richard257:
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:

Well - I went to his shop, looked around haggled a but on the price and I decided to pull the trigger. Now I need to know if i'm an idiot or I did decent..



You did not do decent.
Why ask for help if you intend to reject it?


No - It was an impulse buy. And now I know it was a a bad buy. So i'll cancel the order tomorrow if he hasnt done anything major! Thanks for the advice guys!! I still cannot afford 800 for a Aresnal. I suppose Iterarms or the Waffen Werks will have to do
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 12:04:46 AM EDT
The Arensel AK is the way to go.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 4:33:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:
Originally Posted By Richard257:
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:

Well - I went to his shop, looked around haggled a but on the price and I decided to pull the trigger. Now I need to know if i'm an idiot or I did decent..



You did not do decent.
Why ask for help if you intend to reject it?


No - It was an impulse buy. And now I know it was a a bad buy. So i'll cancel the order tomorrow if he hasn't done anything major! Thanks for the advice guys!! I still cannot afford $800 for a Arsenal. I suppose Interarms or the Waffen Werks will have to do


My two shiny pennies on it? Embrace 'Delayed Gratification'.

You already upped your rifle budget from $400 to $700, what's the problem with waiting just a little while longer until you have the extra hundred bucks until you can afford the Arsenal?

You have already made one mistake because of a quick impulse that you are now trying to correct, don't make another by buying something that in your heart you aren't going to be completely pleased with.

You have been advised by multiple people in this thread to get the Arsenal, and I will do the same. It is well made, and will have excellent resale value a few years from now if you ever decide to sell it. Name brand recognition counts.

Do as you want, but if you buy something else and you find yourself wishing you had actually bought that Arsenal after being given good advice again and again to do so, you will only have yorself to blame.

Good luck to you regardless.

-urban

Link Posted: 6/18/2011 7:00:06 AM EDT
First off, I wouldn't pay $450 for an un-converted Saiga. You can find them in 7.62 and 5.45 for $360.00 to $380.00.
Second, I wouldn't pay someone to do a simple conversion, the store owner is willing to do... and for what he's charging?

What you've stated from the store owner's conversion of the Saiga, isn't what I'd consider a full conversion for the rifle to have that, AK100 series look and function.

A full conversion would consist of him changeing out the front sight base, gas block, gas tube and a handguard retainer.... aside from the buttstock & pistol grip... and the only thing Tapco, would be a G-2 trigger.

As for the handguard, the Tapco units replace the factory handguard without any modification - as in the previously mentioned handguard retainer that will allow you to fit most any Military style set of handguards.

It's all about what YOU will be satisfied with, but if it were me, I'd get the Arsenal SGL 31, or the Waffen Works 74.

Good Luck!
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 10:25:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2011 10:26:42 AM EDT by TheGrandIllusion]
Doesn't sound like he's doing the front end conversion, which makes the $700.00 price tag terrible. He's doing about a $550 total job/sale at most.

Link Posted: 6/18/2011 10:28:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:
Originally Posted By Richard257:
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:

Well - I went to his shop, looked around haggled a but on the price and I decided to pull the trigger. Now I need to know if i'm an idiot or I did decent..



You did not do decent.
Why ask for help if you intend to reject it?


No - It was an impulse buy. And now I know it was a a bad buy. So i'll cancel the order tomorrow if he hasnt done anything major! Thanks for the advice guys!! I still cannot afford 800 for a Aresnal. I suppose Iterarms or the Waffen Werks will have to do


Get a Used SGL-31. I just sold one for $705 with a ton of extras. They're generally about $700-725 used.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 11:29:36 AM EDT
I agree with all the others...don't be penny smart, and pound foolish.

You're probably going to shoot $100 worth of ammo out of the thing the first week you get it anyway.  So why fret over spending an extra $100 on a better gun?  If you need to delay the purchase for a bit to scrape up the extra dough, do it.

Someone else brought up another important point: resale value. If you ever need or want to sell the rifle, a factory Arsenal will return more money to your pocket than a conversion of unknown quality from an unknown builder.

No question...get the Arsenal.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 7:29:42 PM EDT
Never buy the sub par gun when you know you want the good one.
Link Posted: 6/19/2011 9:17:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2011 9:20:01 AM EDT by Mammynun]
I did my own Saiga conversion. It's not hard and there's plenty of tutorials on YouTube and the Saiga 12 forum. Plus, I got the Saiga used for $300 OTD and it looked unfired. That said, if you're uncomfortable DIYing get the Arsenal. I have <$500 in mine, including the die to thread the barrel.







How I threaded the Saiga 7.62 barrel
Link Posted: 6/19/2011 9:19:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mammynun:
I did my own Saiga conversion. It's not hard and there's plenty of tutorials on YouTube and the Saiga 12 forum. Plus, I got the Saiga used for $300 OTD and it looked unfired. That said, if you're uncomfortable DIYing get the Arsenal. I have <$500 in mine, including the die to thread the barrel.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0616.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0517.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0533.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0522.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0486.jpg

How I threaded the barrel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q9vZYl49yw

Yeah, saiga conversions are great if you have the tools and ability to do it yourself (and do it properly, not half ass).  Otherwise it makes more sense to just pick up an SGL from Arsenal.
Link Posted: 6/19/2011 1:31:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mammynun:
I did my own Saiga conversion. It's not hard and there's plenty of tutorials on YouTube and the Saiga 12 forum. Plus, I got the Saiga used for $300 OTD and it looked unfired. That said, if you're uncomfortable DIYing get the Arsenal. I have <$500 in mine, including the die to thread the barrel.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0616.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0517.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0533.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0522.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/Saiga%20762x39/DSCF0486.jpg

How I threaded the Saiga 7.62 barrel


Wow I really like that!
Link Posted: 6/19/2011 2:23:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 2:52:34 PM EDT
I vote for the Arsenal SGL.
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 2:54:56 PM EDT
Well the shop sold me a Saiga converted AK47 not the 74 I wanted. My question for the experts is. What's the difference between a genuine 47 or 74 and a converted Saiga? Is there any difference?
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 3:55:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2011 3:57:19 PM EDT by IMR]
Well, looks like your dilema is over.

Thought you wanted a 74
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 4:00:08 PM EDT
@ IMR - I DID and do still. I just have awful problems with impulse buying.. Now Zen told me Saiga's dont have front sight block, gas block and brake. Now forgive me for my ignorance but what does a brake? The gas block I get, and the sight block I assume is just for the sights. Am I right? And how will the performance be without the brake and the 74 gas block?
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 4:09:33 PM EDT
The brake is a muzzle brake.  It reduces felt recoil and muzzle climb when you fire it.

The Saiga has a front sight base and gas block, they just aren't in military configuration.  The saiga front sight base isn't threaded, so you can't easily put a muzzle brake or flash hider on it.  There is no bayonet lug on it, so you can't mount a bayonet.  The gas block doesn't have an accessory lug (used for grenade launcher mounting).  The bayonet lug and accessory lug also act as retainers to hold the cleaning rod in place under the barrel.

Honestly, you seem pretty new to AKs and quite oblivious.  I would skip the unknown Saiga conversion and just get a complete AK that it is in military configuration to begin with.  The Waffen Werks and the Arsenals fit that category.  If you don't know what to look for in a Saiga conversion you'll have a hard time telling if the guy is selling you a half ass conversion.  For $700 he sure as hell better not be.
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 4:22:45 PM EDT
If I'm following this thread correctly, it sounds like you already bought a 47?  Even though you wanted a 74?  How does that happen, exactly?

Honestly, if you can't even tell what the caliber is of the weapon you're buying, you desperately need to learn more before anymore money leaves your pocket.  I agree with dskeet....it doesn't appear that you have any idea what you're doing.
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 5:06:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2011 5:08:48 PM EDT by IMR]
Guns, it would really be in your best interest, to do a LOT of reserch.
You're not going to get all your questions answerd here in this thread. It takes time & thought into what YOU want.

There's been a lot of help with your decision with what the crew here thought would best suit you.

We all get a little impulsive every now and then, but for most, when 500 to a thousand dollar decision is on the line for a firearm... we tend to use patience to make sure that's what we really want... or need.

But, congratulations on your new Saiga 7.62x39... I hope it shoots well for ya.
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 5:25:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:
Well the shop sold me a Saiga converted AK47 not the 74 I wanted. My question for the experts is. What's the difference between a genuine 47 or 74 and a converted Saiga? Is there any difference?


There can be major differences or none at all.  It all depends on the level of the conversion.

An Arsenal SGL series rifle is an example of a completely converted Saiga that has no real difference from a military AK.

This would be a Saiga conversion that is barely halfway done and has a good bit of differences from a military AK.
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 5:36:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2011 5:36:34 PM EDT by into_the_knight]
Originally Posted By dskeet:
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:
Well the shop sold me a Saiga converted AK47 not the 74 I wanted. My question for the experts is. What's the difference between a genuine 47 or 74 and a converted Saiga? Is there any difference?


There can be major differences or none at all.  It all depends on the level of the conversion.

An Arsenal SGL series rifle is an example of a completely converted Saiga that has no real difference from a military AK.

This would be a Saiga conversion that is barely halfway done and has a good bit of differences from a military AK.


Yep.

I would classify it as four types of conversions.

Back end only.  Move trigger to proper location, add pistol grip and buttstock.

Semi-Front End.  Includes everything in the back end but also uses a bolt on handguard retainer, new gas tube, and upper and lower handguards.  No "real" muzzle device added.  I don't consider the weld-on or other type of muzzle devices to be acceptable.  

Three-Quarters front end.  Includes everything in the back end.  Replaces the front sight block with proper ak-74 part but leaves the Saiga Gas block.  Uses a bolt on handguard retainer. Uses AK-74 upper and lower handguards.   Has a 74 muzzle break.  This is what I have done to my own Saiga conversions and I am happy with it.

Full-front End.  Includes everything in the back end.  Replaces the gas block and front sight block with proper ak-74 parts.  Uses a real handguard retainer and not a bolt on.  Has a 74 muzzle break.  This is basically what Arsenal does.  

Link Posted: 6/20/2011 5:40:34 PM EDT
BTW, To the OP I see you're selling the rifle in the Equipment Exchange.

I would classify that one as semi-front end.  

If you get yourself a 74 Front Sight block and change out that hideous furniture, you'll have a rifle that you can be happy with.

Just my opinion.

Here's my Three Quarter Front End conversion.  No special tools required.  Just a hammer, block of wood, hand drill, and a dremel is all you really need.

Link Posted: 6/20/2011 8:06:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By StephenNW:
If I'm following this thread correctly, it sounds like you already bought a 47?  Even though you wanted a 74?  How does that happen, exactly?

Honestly, if you can't even tell what the caliber is of the weapon you're buying, you desperately need to learn more before anymore money leaves your pocket.  I agree with dskeet....it doesn't appear that you have any idea what you're doing.


lol I know I bought a 47, and I know the difference between the two. I wanted a 74 but I'm bad about waiting for one in the EE or ordering one. So, I bought a 47.. I would love to keep it, but got laid off. Soo it appears unless I do well on my interview Wed i'll be without any rifle for awhile.

Thanks for the replies, if I cannot find it a home i'll thread the barrel and add on a muzzle break..
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 8:18:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2011 8:22:43 PM EDT by StephenNW]
Originally Posted By GunsBlazing:
Originally Posted By StephenNW:
If I'm following this thread correctly, it sounds like you already bought a 47?  Even though you wanted a 74?  How does that happen, exactly?

Honestly, if you can't even tell what the caliber is of the weapon you're buying, you desperately need to learn more before anymore money leaves your pocket.  I agree with dskeet....it doesn't appear that you have any idea what you're doing.


lol I know I bought a 47, and I know the difference between the two. I wanted a 74 but I'm bad about waiting for one in the EE or ordering one. So, I bought a 47.. I would love to keep it, but got laid off. Soo it appears unless I do well on my interview Wed i'll be without any rifle for awhile.

Thanks for the replies, if I cannot find it a home i'll thread the barrel and add on a muzzle break..


Oh, I have a feeling you'll definitely be keeping it.

BTW, congrats on having already lined-up an interview for Wednesday!  That's amazing how you just got laid-off today (saw that in your EE ad), and you've already managed to get an interview so soon.  In a single day you, (i) Picked up a new AK; (ii) got laid-off; (iii) applied for a new job; and (iv) got an interview scheduled for Wednesday.

You are a very efficient person!
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 8:28:18 PM EDT
Well I had a feeling the lay off would happen. Didn't know who would be laid off, but new it would happen to someone. I'm so deep into the gun I will keep it most likely. Thanks I'll need the luck!
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 8:38:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By psdavi01:
Cancel the Saiga and the Tapco crap and get the AIM Arsenal, you will not regret it!


Arsenal all the way. Silly.
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