

Posted: 3/13/2005 1:32:03 PM EST
I need help, I have some questions about the AK47. Only answer if you have experiance with this weapon.
You will find these questions strange I imagine, please keep an open mind. I am asking because my son supposedly killed himself with an AK47. I understand your answers are only your opinion. I know some about the weapon, but not enough . Is it possible (how possible) that if the AK was placed close to the forhead it would cause enough back pressure to explode the cartrage? If not what would it take to explode the cartrage? Is it possible in the same situation that the bullet would not exit the head? If not in your opinion what would have to happen in order for the bullet to NOT exit the head? IF the barrel was close to or touching the forhead would there be a flash burn?? Or no since the back pressure would prevent it? I will explain a bit...... My son had only one wound, it was aprox. 3 1/2 inches in diameter. Roughly oval, but more round in shape. It was on the left side of his forhead from eyebrow to hairline. There is a slight dip in the bottom edge of the wound, the dip is about finger sized. There were NO OTHER Wounds. He had no powder, or flash burns at all anywhere. He did not put the barrel in his mouth. I am trying to understand how this could happen. The wound appeared to me to be a glancing type of blow. Like the bullet struck just above the eyebrow and the resulting pressure etc. is what made the larger part of the wound. One of my other sons and I have examined a similar weapon trying to determine where it would have to be in order to cause the wound I discribed. It seems the "dip" is where the bullet struck, the large hole was sort of popped off as the bullet passed behind his forhead. My biggest questions are about the exploded cartrage. Keep in mind they never recovered any rounds. One went completely through the cealing, upper floor into the attic and exited through the roof. This round is accounted for according to witness statements he fired the gun into the ceailing right before he died. NO other rounds were ever even found to have been fired, although they recovered three spent shells, one of which was exploded. Any opinions?? Idias of what may have happend?? Questions you would like answered?? Questions you think I should be asking the police or coroner?? Thank You For Your Help Karen Do Not be put off by me being a woman, I am not squemish, or faint hearted. this is massivly important to me, so even brutal honesty will not upset me. Believe me I have asked for alot worse things from the police. |
|
First, I'm very, very sorry for your loss.
Second, there would be powder burns and massive trauma from the pressure of the propellent gasses so close to the skin. From personal experience, I had a .45 ACP cartridge detonate while I was unloading a pistol with my hand over the ejection port, and most of the resulting damage to my hand was from the force of the explosion, not shrapnel from the casing that exploded. A pistol cartridge like the .45 ACP is very low pressure compared to a rifle cartridge like the 7.62x39mm. I also sustained second degree burns from the powder flash on my hand. The bullet would have likely passed completely through the cranium if it was fired directly into it. Again, I am very sorry for your loss. While it's almost impossible to say for certain what a bullet will or will not do when it hits living tissue, it seems like something different happened with your son. As far as the cartridge blowing up, that would not have been due to back pressure.....more likely faulty ammunition, which with current commercial ammunition is very rare, with the exception of a primer being struck hard enough to go off before the cartridge is fully seated in the chamber (which controls the force of the explosion), which is what happened in my experience with the cartridge detonating in my hand. Beyond that, I really don't know what to say except to give you my condolences. |
|
ETA as Templar.. my condolences |
|
|
Are you asking about the cartidge (the part that holds the powder) exploding, or the actual projectile itself framenting on impact?
As previously stated, there would be powder burns if the muzzle was placed against skin and fired. I am sorry for your loss. |
|
I can not add anything else that hasn't already been said. But Im very sorry for your loss. My prayers are with you and your son. My condolences too you..
![]() |
|
Karen, I am sorry for your loss.
I personally feel that if one were to shoot themself with an AK, it would almost assuredly leave powder burns on the skin. Most AK's have a 16" barrel and you couldn't get the barrel very far away from your self to pull the trigger. The human skull is not that strong, not nearly as strong as a deer's skull. I see the power of the (probably 7.62x39) round making a very large exit wound. It sounds to me like there was something placed between the muzzle and his forehead, like a book or something rather thick to slow it down enough to not exit the skull, that also may explain the larger entrance hole. (the bullet was fragmented and had expanded) The exploded cartridge would look like the image already posted. (maybe longer) IF it did it would have had to be outside the gun for it to expand. Possibly if it was heated to a point of explosion and the resulting loss of velocity might make the bullet impact the skull sideways and not exit. The muzzle 'back pressure' thought is very, very unlikely. (I have never heard or seen of anything like that) A trained medical examiner could determine if the bullet was fired thru the gun or it exploded into him. It wouldn't leave any rifleing on the bullet if it weren't actually fired. I again appologize for your loss and hope that you find the true story. |
|
Again, my condolences.
There's just about 26" from muzzle to trigger, so the reach is close to the maximum for a face shot and an unsteady hold/pull may be expected. There is normally a small flash out the muzzle, meaning unburnt powder, so powder burns are expected. Even if foul play, I can not guess what may have been between the muzzle/head to absorb the powder blast and generate enough back pressure to blow out the case. If the cartridge case was split open, I'd expect locking lugs on the bolt to be damaged as well. |
|
Sorry for your loss.
![]()
If no round was recovered than why the question about the round not exiting the head? It sounds to me like you have the glancing impact part pretty well figured out. If the barrel wasnt striaght on it could have entered at the eyebrow and exited somewhere between there and the hairline. If it was against the head, damage could have destroyed or hidden any powder burns (but this is just my uneducated opinion, someone in forensics could tell you for sure). I would think this round would still have enough energy to go through a ceiling, etc, so the holes could actually be from the round that did the head trauma. As for the witnesses saying he fired into the ceiling, did they actually SEE him do this? Did they then leave? They found three spent cases. Is it possible spent cases could have been in the room already? I know there are spent cases in my room from when i was trying to figure out some extraction problems. This could also explain the ruptured case. It could have happened previously and he kept the case. Although, if they were spread over the floor this would be very unlikely. If they were sitting on a desk, who knows. Did witnesses hear three shots? Again, very sorry for your loss. |
||
|
I think the idea here is to change a coroners report from suicide to foul play related.
If that is the case, then perhaps something was used to cover the flash, like a pillow that may have been erroneously overlooked as evidence. There are websites that show the effects of self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and all that I have seen had massive purple/red bruising where the powder burned the persons face from close contact. You may not want to see the pictures, but it might help answer your question for you. |
|
Quoted:
I need help, I have some questions about the AK47. Only answer if you have experiance with this weapon. You will find these questions strange I imagine, please keep an open mind. I am asking because my son supposedly killed himself with an AK47. I understand your answers are only your opinion. I know some about the weapon, but not enough . Is it possible (how possible) that if the AK was placed close to the forhead it would cause enough back pressure to explode the cartrage? Doubt it. If not what would it take to explode the cartrage? The round was probably out of the gun (?), and either heat or a hit on the primer could cause it to go off. I say probably, cause usually if a Kb happens on a rifle round; IF the chamber of the weapon contains the blast, then most of the case gets stuck inside the chamber. Is it possible in the same situation that the bullet would not exit the head? If the round went off outside the gun, I suppose it possible for the bullet to gain enough velocity to enter the cranium but not exit. If not in your opinion what would have to happen in order for the bullet to NOT exit the head? See above theory on a round detonation outside of the rifle. IF the barrel was close to or touching the forhead would there be a flash burn?? Or no since the back pressure would prevent it? I think there would most definately be powder burns in/around the entrance wound, if the muzzle was close to the head. If the round exploded elsewhere, the blast would have sperad out equally in just about every direction. I will explain a bit...... My son had only one wound, it was aprox. 3 1/2 inches in diameter. Roughly oval, but more round in shape. It was on the left side of his forhead from eyebrow to hairline. There is a slight dip in the bottom edge of the wound, the dip is about finger sized. There were NO OTHER Wounds. He had no powder, or flash burns at all anywhere. He did not put the barrel in his mouth. I am trying to understand how this could happen. The wound appeared to me to be a glancing type of blow. Like the bullet struck just above the eyebrow and the resulting pressure etc. is what made the larger part of the wound. One of my other sons and I have examined a similar weapon trying to determine where it would have to be in order to cause the wound I discribed. It seems the "dip" is where the bullet struck, the large hole was sort of popped off as the bullet passed behind his forhead. My biggest questions are about the exploded cartrage. Keep in mind they never recovered any rounds. One went completely through the cealing, upper floor into the attic and exited through the roof. This round is accounted for according to witness statements he fired the gun into the ceailing right before he died. NO other rounds were ever even found to have been fired, although they recovered three spent shells, one of which was exploded. Any opinions?? Idias of what may have happend?? Questions you would like answered?? Questions you think I should be asking the police or coroner?? Thank You For Your Help Karen Do Not be put off by me being a woman, I am not squemish, or faint hearted. this is massivly important to me, so even brutal honesty will not upset me. Believe me I have asked for alot worse things from the police. Get the forensic results on the bullet from the head, see if it has rifling marks at all. That more than anything else should shed light on what happened. 3 cases recovered, and one bullet hole through the ceiling/attic/roof. 1 case in fragmented condition. The hole in the roof seems it could only come from a round fired through the rifle, to give the bullet sufficient velocity to penetrate and exit. The fragmented case, lack of powder burns on the entrance wound and no exit wound makes me think the round went off outside the rifle, but the bullet still had enough velocity to enter the cranium. What do the marks on the 3rd casing look like, as compared with the other? See if the scratches from the magazine feed lips match, or the shape of the striker primer indentation. On that note, what the primer indentation look like on the fragmented case? My condolences on your loss, I hope you are able to learn what really happened. |
|
Remember though, she said " Keep in mind they never recovered any rounds." If this means what it would appear to mean, and no round was found in the head, then only one round could have been fired in the room, the one that left evidence of leaving the room. The other two would have to be in the room since there is no evidence that they left (holes in walls, etc), but they didnt find the rounds. Either they didnt look hard enough and the rounds are still in the room, or they were never fired. |
|
|
I would like to hear what YOU think happened. Wound in left side of head, was he left handed?
|
|
AR15.COM is the world’s largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2021 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.