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4/22/2019 5:32:20 PM
Posted: 12/21/2003 3:33:05 PM EDT
I know this is nothing new, but the AR-15 doesn't even come close in reliability when compared to the AK-47.

I was at the range yesterday, plinking w/ some friends, and I saw how true that statement is. Here are the stats:

* The guns--RRA M4gery & Arsenal SAM-7
* Total rounds fired from both--aprox. 650
* Type of firing conditions--plinking and some bump firing for both guns
* AK ammo--the cheapest stuff! (Brown Bear & Wolf)
* AR ammo--XM193 and some Ultramax

Well I know my AK is the shit, but it DIDN'T HAVE A SINGLE MISFEED OR MISFIRE the entire session. No cleaning--no problems. It ate up that cheap Russian ammo and asked for more!

The AR...not so much. After about 400 rds., it had a misfeed or two. After about 450, I "field cleaned" the bolt carrier a little bit (it was filthy), and then it worked like a charm.

I love my AR, but that AK won my friends over that day. One of them just put an order in at Arsenal.


Link Posted: 12/21/2003 3:54:49 PM EDT
Good test.
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 4:12:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 4:35:27 PM EDT

I know this is nothing new, but the AK-47 doesn't even come close in accuracy when compared to the AR-15.

I was at the range yesterday, plinking w/ some friends, and I saw how true that statement is. Here are the stats:

* The guns--RRA M4gery & Arsenal SAM-7
* Total rounds fired from both--aprox. 650
* Type of firing conditions--plinking and some bump firing for both guns
* AK ammo--the cheapest stuff! (Brown Bear & Wolf)
* AR ammo--XM193 and some Ultramax

Well I know my AR is the shit, but it DIDN'T HAVE A SINGLE GROUPING OVER 1 MOA the entire session. No cleaning--no problems. It ate up that cheap Russian ammo and asked for more!

The AK...not so much. At about 400 rds yards, it held misfeed 24" groupings. After about 450, I "field cleaned" the bolt barrel a little bit (it was filthy), and then it worked like a charm. still held 6MOA.

I love my AK, but that AR won my friends over that day. One of them just put an order in at Bushmaster.





Link Posted: 12/21/2003 5:04:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
KALASHNIKOV!

accept no substitute!!!



::Samuel L Jackson:: AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every MF'kr in the room, accept no substitutes. ::Samuel L Jackson::
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 7:09:13 PM EDT
Funny Knife.

That SAM-7 can shoot. It's much more accurate than the SAR I used to have. In fact, it can give my AR a run for it's money when under 100 yds. Over that, well I just have iron sights on it, and it's a guessing game as to where the front post is...
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 8:42:51 PM EDT
I keed I keed!

Link Posted: 12/21/2003 9:53:45 PM EDT
crochunter,

I completely agree with your assessment, but to be fair, I’ve seen some arfs (Colts and Bushmasters) run much longer than that without any “help.” I’ve also seen arfs choke after just a few boxes of ammo too. When it comes to the arf I think they’re a great weapon, just more finicky than the AK.

-J
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 6:37:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JTR8541:
crochunter,

I completely agree with your assessment, but to be fair, I’ve seen some arfs (Colts and Bushmasters) run much longer than that without any “help.” I’ve also seen arfs choke after just a few boxes of ammo too. When it comes to the arf I think they’re a great weapon, just more finicky than the AK.

-J



Definitely.

The AR is the hot, sexy girl that isn't as good in bed as the girl next door, the AK.

The scary thing is that all this firing session did was get me thinking about a chrome bolt and carrier for my AR. Great.

Link Posted: 12/22/2003 8:44:45 AM EDT
thats why I sold my Bushmaster, I was not satisfied with the reliability, it went "bang"
most of the time but then when I thought it was
reliable it would jam on me again even after I
checked everything and cleaned it, it still seemed to jam out of the blue? some days an AR
can go through 250 rds no problem then the next
time it will jam after 100 rds? I think it's because the design tends to be more "finicky"
compared to an AK. The AK just eats anything you feed it, Ive tried several AK's and they were all super reliable.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 3:22:46 PM EDT
I've had the same problems,my last attempt at an AR was a Colt pre ban lower with Colt M4 bbl and upper.It was beautiful,but,one day it would function great and the very next day I could'nt hardly get half way through a mag without some kind of problem.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 8:37:40 PM EDT
How were your mags?
ALl that AR finicky-ness seems to stem from bad magazines.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 9:53:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Knife_Sniper:
How were your mags?
ALl that AR finicky-ness seems to stem from bad magazines.



I installed the improved "green" followers on
my USGI 30 rd mags and that helped a lot, but I
still had an occaisonal jam. I noticed the end of the gastube looked worn and maybe that was causing "gas loss" ? resulting in short stroking or jamming, so I installed a new gastube & gaskey and it worked fine but it still jammed once in a while when I least expected. I wouldnt buy another one. The AR has
been the most un-reliable rifle Ive ever owned.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 11:06:04 PM EDT
While I'll readily admit that I'm very happy with my SAR-1, I have a Bushmaster that I've put a couple thousand rounds through, and it's never had a malfunction of any kind... I can see where overall, the typical AK will be more reliable than the typical AR, though... Just thought I'd relate my experience...


- georgestrings
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 12:06:14 AM EDT
The most common malfunction in my AR is that the bolt and carrier gets dirty, and it doesn't cycle all the way back. Empty cases don't eject, or if they do, the next round doesn't get pulled of the mag good enough and then it jams in the throat.

I witnessed this several times when I watched a friend shoot it. I use nothing but USGI mags, so that's not the problem.

I guess AR's just get dirty fast, and all that crap causes to much friction in the action. Would a chrome carrier group help?

Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:56:47 PM EDT
Yeah, my brother's Bushmaster is real reliable as well. At least as far as 500 rounds without a misfeed is concerned. Perhaps it' because they follow closer to military spec than other post ban rifles? It seems that many other companies use cheaper steel in the barrel and cut corners elsewhere. Oh well, AK's beat AR's flat out for reliability, enough said.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 11:16:16 PM EDT
I've NEVER had a malfunction from my SA M-7, I absolutely love this rifle!! Now my new gun is a DSA STG58A FAL, and Im still breaking her in, Im hoping that it will too become just as reliable as my Kalashnikov, but I doubt it, I guess theyre just 2 different animals. I really dont think I could love another rifle the way I love my AK
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 1:48:41 AM EDT
Well, personally i have -never- had my AR malfunction but that doesn't mean it is as reliable as an AK. The reliability of each gun is in the design of the gas system, there is no questioning it. The AK uses the gas piston design, which does not blow the fouling back through the chamber and the AR uses a direct gas system which does. Each has their advantages and disadvantages. A properly maintained AR using dry lubricant should be able to fire 500+ rounds without malfunctioning. Afterwards about 5 minutes of cleaning can allow it to fire the same amount again. Sure, with an AK you may not have to clean it, but you should. A weapon which is not properly maintained will eventually ALWAYS fail, maybe it will take a bit longer but it will. I fired 500 rounds of XM193 through my AR in 0 degree weather while it was snowing and it never missed a beat. Plus, dont even get me started on the accuracy between the two...
Dont get me wrong, i like the AK series of rifles, my friend owns one and i shoot it frequently, but overall i consider it crap compared to my AR.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 5:07:50 AM EDT
Hows those AR's work when a little bit of that powdery sand gets in and gums up the tight tolerances? I'll stick with the AK, and I'll even have fun at the range with an AR, but If the shtf, its AK all the way, And BTW, its not that AK'rs don't maintain their rifles, its just that we know it will shoot gooped up with mud, sand or anything else they just keep going and going....
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 7:06:50 AM EDT
Well this is my own experiance, with various rifle I have personally owned and fired with at least 1000 rnds down range . The Most reliable for me has been the M1 Garand.Never had any type of malfunction. Then the AR15/M16 .I was in the service.....Then next would be my M14's clones.Popped an extractor( old extractor spring and plunger) and I installed a out of spec op rod spring that caused the timeing to be off and tried to extract while chamber pressure was still high.Locked that rifle up big time.Put in spec spring in it and she's commie killer again.Next would be my AK's. I have one rifle thats the reciever out of spec and had various problems with(No fault to the original design.)I had two or three jams with a SSR85B.But that was in its break in stage.She seems to have smoothed out and running great.SAR 1 that jams about 2 times per 100 rounds. and a SAR2 that has jammed about 1 round per 100 fired.I have a SLR101S thats been flawless in the 300 or so rounds fired.Im a clean freak with my weapons. Treat them like you want them to treat you back...They are normally cleaned and relubed the same day after the range trip.With beer in hand of course. While I trust all my rifles ,the go to rifle is a Colt AR15A1 .The next is a M14/clone I built.and the next is my SLR101S. Personal preferance,nothing to do with the builds in its self. The AR15A1 ,its never jammed and is accurate out to 400M and is LIGHT .The M14 clone ,its accurate, and heavy hitting round, If I can see and hold her steady I can hit silloetts ( Man size ) out to 500 m.Irons.Not everytime but more than not..The SLR101S because its accuratcy is acceptable but deffinelty below the other, and its a rugged rifle. To each there own.WD
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 8:30:52 AM EDT
You really should be getting way way way more than 400 rounds before you need to clean it.

I have a Century franken A1 with a badly worn gas tube and it would go 800 before choking.

I replaced the gas tube.

Whne you replace the gas tube, make sure you barrel is indexed properly. The gas tube needs to come straight back with no binding.

If it is deflecting the tube slightly to the sied, the carrier key will wear it much faster!
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 8:35:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2004 8:37:46 AM EDT by HeavyMetal]

A properly maintained AR using dry lubricant should be able to fire 500+ rounds without malfunctioning. Afterwards about 5 minutes of cleaning can allow it to fire the same amount again.


I run mine soping wet!


The gas system difference is way over rated.

The kalishnikovs advantage is greater clearances, not the gas system.

The clearances matter more is a sandy environment, the AR just dont make enough carbon to seize it up in any reasonable timeframe.

I know Campy tortures the hell out of his M-4 and he said it had 3000 rounds of nasty wolf fouling in it when he handed it to me at bulletfest.

Even he has to admit that 400 ronds it too finiky.

Your rifle is telling you it has marginal system energy. Proabally a gas leak somewhere or else its underrported.



The scary thing is that all this firing session did was get me thinking about a chrome bolt and carrier for my AR.


I think a new gas tube would be a more prudent investment.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 3:13:24 PM EDT

I think a new gas tube would be a more prudent investment.


Really, a new gas tube? You think that is the reason (not fouling) that was causing the carrier not to properly cycle?

This is the first time that I shot more than 250 rds. in it--I'll try again with different ammo to see if I get the same performance.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 6:36:36 PM EDT
yea your gun should be able to fire around 1000 rounds without any malfunctions...
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 6:39:38 PM EDT
I have never used ultramax but it should have ate that XM193 like candy.

It should be on the overgassed side with that short carbine gas system.

A chrome bolt and carrier wont help anything unless your current one is defective in some manner.

A gas tube is a cheap and simple fix before you go popping big bucks.

It would help if you described you misfeed in detail.

If it was short recoil, it could miss rounds completely if the mag was mostly full.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 7:00:33 PM EDT
I shot about 240 rounds through my AR today at 100 yards with open sights on a B27 target, only 7 rounds were outside the black(yeah, I know, I'm not exactly the best shot).

anyway, only had one FTF and that was the result of a very crappy cooper magazine that is definatley out of spec. BTW all of the ammo was wolf.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 7:17:58 PM EDT
I got rid of all my Cooper mags about 12 years ago. Except one good one I kept for collection purposes.

I think the guys at cooper went to work for USA mags.

The .gov rejected some astronomical number of cooper mags(because they sucked real, real hard) about 15 years ago and they were dumped on the civy market.

The perfect accessory for a frankenAR!
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 1:12:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2004 1:14:19 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Read this crochunter:

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/ar15reliability.msnw


AR-15 Reliability
By Troy (forum moderator at AR15.com)

Editor's Note: Troy is the author of the expanded Magazine FAQ and a knowledgeable person on the AR-15 rifles. He currently moderates the Magazine Forum at AR15.com. This was orginally posted in the General Discussion Forum in March 14, 2001.

My BM (Bushmaster) M4 is up to 7000 rounds with no cleaning, just a shot of CLP before heading out to the range. It is truly filthy, but it runs along fine. My only stoppages happened when trying out a brass catcher, where brass would occasionally bounce back into the action. Using a barrier to catch brass instead resulted in no stoppages. This most recent ammo was Win Q3131, which is a bit dirtier than the SA (South African) and Fed AE ammo that I had been shooting. Still, the 2000-stamped Q3131 worked fine, unlike some of those early 99-production lots.

I'm probably gonna give up and clean the thing. At this point, it has proved plenty reliable enough, but it's getting my case dirty now.
Note that this upper has a 5.56 chamber, and is fully chrome-lined, which help assure reliable feeding and extraction. Your results, especially with tight, out-of-round, off-center, or unlined chambers may vary.

Oh, BTW, I tried some handloads with 23.1gr AA2200 powder & Hornady 50gr V-Max bullets and got a sub-MOA (.96") 10-shot group at 100 yards off the bench out of this rifle.

You can keep your AKs.



I'll keep'em all, thanks! HM


Just so it's clear: this wasn't 7000 in one single session, but over almost a year, typically about 400-600 rounds per outing. I was specifically testing reliability in a situation where cleaning wasn't possible. As I said, I *did* squirt a big shot of CLP onto the bolt carrier before each outing, so there was *some* passive cleaning, but no bore snakes, patches, cleaning rods, solvant, etc.

Keld, one of our members from Denmark, reports that during their trials before adopting the Canadian C7A1 (a flat-top M16A3), they had a similar test that reached 15000 rounds before failure.

Again, this may or may not be typical performance. This is mearly one example, and my rifle is otherwise well-maintained, and isn't subjected to mud, rain, or other abuses common in the field.

Still, it kinda gives you a warm fuzzy, huh?

-Troy

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