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Posted: 1/2/2004 3:31:01 PM EDT
Is firing a SAR-1 from the hip conducive to a failure to extract?  I am firing semi-auto only, no bump firing.  After about 10 rounds I will get a shell wedged between the the bolt and the next round (which is out of the mag).

To fix it I simply pull back the bolt, remove the spent shell and the next round (it is loose above mag) and then let the bolt slam home.  This is not a big problem but it is a hassle.

I would blame it on a particular mag or ammo type but both times it was different ammo in differnt mags.  If I remember correctly, the first time was with a Silver Bear FMJ round and a steel mag and the second time was with a Wolf FMJ round in a Polish Synthetic mag.  So I guess the problem lies with the gun.

But basically, I want to know if this is normal from firing from the hip.  I think it might be because there is no object at the end of the rifle (like your shoulder) to absorb the recoil, but I dunno.  If it is normal, then there is nothing I can do about it, but if for some reason this situation sounds weird let me know so that I can get it fixed.

Let me know what you all think.  Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 3:46:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 3:52:19 PM EDT
I've never had a problem with mine when shooting from the hip, it works just as if fired from the shoulder.  My guess is that there shouldn't be any difference on any AK.

I have no idea what's wrong though, but I'm sure than someone here can help you out though.
I'm interested to see what turns up.

Sorry I wasn't a help.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 4:04:02 PM EDT
Thanks for the advice Campy, but somehow, I do not think that all that is necessary.  I plan to do it anyway just to clean up the gun but here is why I think that that is not behind the problematic occurances.

My SAR-1, after the shooting I did today, has a round count of about 900+ easy.  I do not record the exact amount so that is a rough guess.  And it has never been cleaned.  That I know of!  Man I love reliability!  

And like I said earlier, this problem has only occurred twice, and both times during hip firing.  Other times I fire from the hip and all is well, like crochunter says, but these oddities happening twice now has got me thinking.

I am interested to see if anyone has some other ideas as to why this happens.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 4:18:46 PM EDT

Most of the recoil energy got used up moving the entire rifle backwards through mid air before smacking...

That quote is from that thread Campy as posted by NGC 6543.  That is what I think may have happened.  But I am not for sure.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 6:04:23 PM EDT
I would think that would only cause a problem on recoil, or blowback type arms...

Like limp wristing a 1911...
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 6:49:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2004 6:54:39 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
It almost sounds like the cases are somehow bouncing back into the reciever.

I do not suscribe to the limp wristing theory for gas guns.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 7:08:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
It almost sounds like the cases are somehow bouncing back into the reciever.

That is what I was thinking.  But I cannot figure out exactly how that is happening.  This is the best I can think of...

The round is fired, and the gas blowback system starts moving the bolt rearward.  But, since it is fired from the hip, the bolt only gets back far enough to get just behind the next round in the mag (due to lost energy of recoil).  And also, since some of the recoil is absorbed by the rifle moving in the air next to the hip, the round being extracted does not have enough energy left over to fully eject.  The bolt, now at the end of its rearward travel (but not all the way back), starts moving forward again stripping out the new round and carrying the un-ejected case with it.  As the new round moves to enter the chamber the bolt is blocked from slamming it home by the old case.  Hence the jam I experience.

It has only happened twice on occasions that were about 4 months apart.  But both were during hip firing.  I have looked at my rifle so much tonight, moving the action around, that the above idea is the only thing I have.

Campy - I agree that firing an AK in the air with one hand is not the same as the shoulder, but the hand and the joints of the arms act as a quasi-shoulder to absorb the recoil with the hand and wrist acting as a sort of lever.  As I hold my rifle in one hand and point in the air I can see that the recoil is absorbed at the shoulder, just at a different angle.  With firing at the hip, the rifle has only the strong hand rear shoulder (rear deltoid) to absorb the recoil, but the deltoid moves to freely to absorb any significant recoil.  So hence the rifle itself, if not gripped extremely firmly, moves quite a bit toward the rear (assuming it is not against your hip on the thigh).

I am running out of ideas.  Plus, I am coming to the conclusion that it is not a big deal to worry about since it has only happened twice in almost 1000 rounds.  
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 7:21:32 PM EDT
I wonder about the opening and rolled edge on your dust cover.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 7:29:09 PM EDT
It seems normal.  Is there some irregularity I should be on the look out for?

In all honesty I think the opening for extracted shells is of no concern because, as previously stated earlier, this problem has only happend twice in about 1000 rounds.

But if there is something specific to look for, let me know.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 10:42:10 PM EDT
The emptys bounce off the rolled edge at the rear of the ejection port.  If it is somehow distorted or dimensionally wrong, it could direct it back into the workings.
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 5:23:56 AM EDT
I think it could be the ammo? because I noticed some of the current production ammo doesnt "feel" as hot as it use to be? real military 7.62x39 feels a little "hotter" and has more recoil. The Chinese steel core ammo I
used back in the 80's was definitely hotter than the current "WOLF" brand ammo available today.
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 10:27:03 AM EDT
Well I would blame it on a certain type of ammo but I can't since on both occasions, different ammo was being used.  The first time was with Silver Bear FMJ and the second time (recent) was with 2003 Wolf FMJ.

I have not fired any older Wolf so I dunno about it being less "hot" than the newer stuff.  But the idea seems intriguing...
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