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Posted: 10/5/2008 12:05:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2011 5:27:22 PM EDT by Rafaga]
Hi All,

I'm a relative newcomer to this board and the AK hobby as well. Purchased my first AK maybe eight months ago. After lots of reading through this forum and experimenting with scope mounts I purchased at my local gun show I didn't find anything that really worked well for me. That made me decide to develop my own scope rail to fit my AK and personal tastes. I've had a couple of prototypes at the range and my design is finally getting to be something that I like. The design is something of a Dog Leg shaped rail to get it low enough to co-witness with the standard iron sites and a cheapy little BSA red dot I have.

It occurred to me that if two heads are better than one then two thousand must be better than two. Included are some pics and a link to a Flickr page I created yesterday to show what I'm working on. Constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. I'm certain there are pitfalls that I've overlooked. Thanks in advance for the opinions.

Flickr  Link


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3074/2912636887_5cda41fb2e_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3290/2913483180_3819436c3b_m.jpg
Link Posted: 10/5/2008 12:13:16 PM EDT
OK so I don't seem to be having any luck inserting the pictures in the thread. Maybe someone can help me out?  Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/5/2008 1:20:27 PM EDT
Disregard, I figured it out.  Thanks
Link Posted: 10/5/2008 2:13:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2008 2:24:47 PM EDT by rube79]
I'll take one if the price is reasonable!!!!  Seriously

Peep sight on the rear and/or a groove where the rear sight was to replace irons.  Hell, it would be ez to do either
Link Posted: 10/5/2008 2:38:54 PM EDT
Hi Rube79,

Can you clarify where you think a groove should be?  It sounds to me as if you would like to see it at the front end of the rail on top where the original leaf sight was located. Do I understand you correctly?

My thought was to attach an AR15 type of rear peep sight that is adjustable for elevation and windage. I see those at the gun shows all the time for about fifty bucks.

Link Posted: 10/5/2008 3:08:56 PM EDT
DPH Arms is in the process of developing a mount similar to this.  They are having some difficulty with the rear of the mount.

To quote DPH: "However, different stocks will cause the rail to sit differently on the gun. That is one of the issues we are looking at right now. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to fix it yet. We have found that there is variation in the rear trunions from one country to another as well at the difference between the Saiga's and standard AK's."

How many AK variants have you tested this mount on?  Would your mount encounter similar problems between AK variants?

I reference this thread here: Link

I wish you the very best in this venture.  I am in the market for this style of mount and wouldn't mind giving you some business in the future.
Link Posted: 10/5/2008 3:29:42 PM EDT
Hey Liquidmetal,

Thanks for the link. I had actually looked at that product and it didn't quite work for me. My thought to overcome the variability problem was to make the connection of the rear tang block to the rail itself be slotted to accommodate small variation in weapon length.  My main objective was to get the rail as low as possible and keep the thing simple and light. As simple as the Dog Leg design is it actually took some head scratching to get there. The first couple of prototypes I made were straight rails like the DPH or Krebs. Now that I have the front mostly figured out I'm working on the quick release for the rear. I should have an updated prototype by the middle of the week. I'll then be working with a  local gun dealer that carries several brands of AK's to make sure it fits weapons from various countries.
Link Posted: 10/5/2008 6:31:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rafaga:
Hi Rube79,

Can you clarify where you think a groove should be?  It sounds to me as if you would like to see it at the front end of the rail on top where the original leaf sight was located. Do I understand you correctly?

My thought was to attach an AR15 type of rear peep sight that is adjustable for elevation and windage. I see those at the gun shows all the time for about fifty bucks.



Exactly, front end of the rail and/or add a peep sight at the rear.  I have seen these attached to the rear or a gilbertbrand rail.  though i do like the ar15 ones alot more.  
Hunting season is getting real close!!!
Link Posted: 10/5/2008 8:56:56 PM EDT
Looks interesting. As others have stated, including some sort of iron sight would be great.
Link Posted: 10/6/2008 1:21:06 PM EDT
i'm seriously trying to find one of these, but one that doesn't require the tang.
Link Posted: 10/6/2008 4:19:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rube79:
I'll take one if the price is reasonable!!!!  Seriously

Peep sight on the rear and/or a groove where the rear sight was to replace irons.  Hell, it would be ez to do either


+1

How does it attach to the rear/stock?

Is there an AR type BUIS that would work with something like this?
Link Posted: 10/6/2008 4:40:23 PM EDT
At the rear there is a small block fitted to the tang that is held in place with the buttstock screw. The quick release will clamp onto that small block. I'm working on a basic peep sight now. The basic peep will have adjustment for zero but it won't be a super bells and whistles kind of thing like you see for the AR's. Those alone can cost way north of a hundred bucks.  I'm trying to make this rail so it comes in right around a hundred bucks. I should be ready to test this latest version at the range on Wednesday or Thursday.

Link Posted: 10/6/2008 5:34:35 PM EDT
here's a thought. is there any way to integrate your rail, and the side rail? ie: have it attach via low profile side rail and into the rear sight spot like you currently have it?
Link Posted: 10/6/2008 5:52:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2008 5:52:55 PM EDT by TX-Zen]
Thats pretty nice work there, I'd definately be interested for my Saiga. And any chance it will fit us losers with bulgy folders?


Good job on the Flkr presentation, it demonstrates the product nicely.

Best of luck to you, looks like you have something with alot of potential here. Hopefully you can get the fine details worked out and get it on the market.




Z

eta Welcome to the forum!
Link Posted: 10/6/2008 6:07:05 PM EDT
That's a pretty cool idea. It might make it a little more complex or heavier but, it would accomodate the folding stocks a little easier as long as you have the side rail on your weapon. I like it. Maybe once I finish up this one I can sketch that out and see if I can make it work cleanly.
Link Posted: 10/6/2008 6:18:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2008 6:18:59 PM EDT by Rafaga]
TX-Zen

I haven't looked closely at the folders yet to see how they function and what I have to work with. This just started out as me tinkering with my AK and before I knew it I was several prototypes down the road. When I get this one finished I'll certainly look into the folders.

One simple solution for attaching any common small red dot would be to make a short little rail to replace the standard leaf. Maybe about 3 inches long or so. It would not be low enough to allow co-witnessing but so what. It would be universal and it would be cheap and easy. I bet I could make something like that for about twenty five bucks.

Would that work for you?
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 5:40:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rafaga:
TX-Zen

I haven't looked closely at the folders yet to see how they function and what I have to work with. This just started out as me tinkering with my AK and before I knew it I was several prototypes down the road. When I get this one finished I'll certainly look into the folders.

One simple solution for attaching any common small red dot would be to make a short little rail to replace the standard leaf. Maybe about 3 inches long or so. It would not be low enough to allow co-witnessing but so what. It would be universal and it would be cheap and easy. I bet I could make something like that for about twenty five bucks.

Would that work for you?


if you can make it stable where it won't flop around, hell yes i'd be interested. but it would have to be long enough to except both an eotech and/or an aimpoint.
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 7:27:11 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By calicojack:
if you can make it stable where it won't flop around, hell yes i'd be interested. but it would have to be long enough to except both an eotech and/or an aimpoint.


How long would it have to be to accept the Eotech or Aimpoint?

The one concern I do have is if the sight is a bit too heavy then yes it might flop around.  I'll be looking into that a little today.
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 9:06:17 AM EDT
You could attach the small rail to the gas block with a screw by threading the small hole found under the rear sight.  The K-Var bullpup conversion uses this hole to secure the rear sight.  You probably could put the screw through the hole and into the threaded part of your mount, but it would have to be lock-tighted to keep it from backing out and ending up jamming the carrier.  The screw + the spring would make things stable I think.  This would be a neat option for anyone wanting to add an Aimpoint or Eo-Tech.  If you could add a simple v or u shaped back up sight to the mount it would be complete.  
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 9:44:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By acr1:
You could attach the small rail to the gas block with a screw by threading the small hole found under the rear sight.  The K-Var bullpup conversion uses this hole to secure the rear sight.  You probably could put the screw through the hole and into the threaded part of your mount, but it would have to be lock-tighted to keep it from backing out and ending up jamming the carrier.  The screw + the spring would make things stable I think.  This would be a neat option for anyone wanting to add an Aimpoint or Eo-Tech.  If you could add a simple v or u shaped back up sight to the mount it would be complete.  


+1. the aimpoint uses about 7 rails or so. the eotechs should be about the same. maybe a little more for the long versions.
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 10:34:23 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By acr1:
You could attach the small rail to the gas block with a screw by threading the small hole found under the rear sight.  The K-Var bullpup conversion uses this hole to secure the rear sight.  You probably could put the screw through the hole and into the threaded part of your mount, but it would have to be lock-tighted to keep it from backing out and ending up jamming the carrier.  The screw + the spring would make things stable I think.  This would be a neat option for anyone wanting to add an Aimpoint or Eo-Tech.  If you could add a simple v or u shaped back up sight to the mount it would be complete.  


I looked at my rifle and didn't find any little hole in the block under the leaf sight. There is a dimple in the spring that holds it into the block but, no hole.  I just finished making up a little prototype of the leaf rail and will have a picture up in about twenty minutes.
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 11:54:43 AM EDT
Here's a few pics of the Mini Sight Rail. The BSA mounted on it is not very heavy and seems to stay put fairly well. If you were to put something especially heavy on the rail it might give you trouble. As it is I can shake it around quite aggressively and it stays in place.  With a laser bore sight for reference I can shake it all around and lift the leaf up and down, and the spring in the sight block seems to always bring it back to place. There is a bolt with a locknut under the leaf rail to allow course adjustment to elevation. The leaf sits high enough that a rear iron sight probably wouldn't work for anything under 500 meters. I think I can still get it about 1/8 inch lower and maybe that will allow a rear iron sight to work.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3199/2921793763_10185db3fe_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/2922642924_7c77225f4d_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3295/2921846105_3c4db4fe40_m.jpg
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 2:20:07 PM EDT
The hole I was talking about is under the spring for the rear sight.  I was at work and wasn't thinking correctly.  I was thinking you could just make your original dog leg mount, but only make it go back from the sight block far enough for an Aimpoint/EoTech to mount.  You could cut a V or U into the front portion of the mount to serve as a sight.  
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 6:07:14 PM EDT
Finished up the rear peep prototype this evening. The results were mixed. Once mounted I sighted it in at 40 yards with a laser bore sighter. Unfortunately, it won't co-witness through the glass. Maybe I'll have better luck with a different brand of red dot.  

The upside is the peep being so close to your eye makes a huge improvement in aiming ease and comfort. I'm fairly certain it will be a big improvement over the standard leaf when I get out to the range in the next day or two. The sight radius has more than doubled on the rifle.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3199/2922630531_a95500f7ab_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2922630469_ea4c8473b9_m.jpg
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 6:20:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2008 6:25:18 PM EDT by calicojack]
on the smaller one...

drop it down like you did on the dog leg. how secure is it in your current model?

on your dog leg:
this is an idea for us running ar style stocks. as it's designed now, it secures into the rear tang. is there a way to to make a style where it secures around a buffer tube? attached to the dog leg rail would be a half circle, with screw holes, and then on the bottom half there would be a "u" that would have threads that they screws from the top part would secure into.

I know that this picture is for a lower hand guard, but i think you'd get the point of the design:
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 6:22:18 PM EDT
Can someone tell me how difficult it is to remove the front sight block?

It seems to me that making a slightly taller font sight block might be less work than making a really low rail to allow a co-witness through the glass. If the front sight were maybe 3/8" to 1/2" taller then I could make a straight rail without the dog leg and also a taller rear peep that would co-witness through the glass. The possible combinations of optics and irons would open up a bunch.

Any thoughts?  What am I missing?
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 6:27:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rafaga:
Can someone tell me how difficult it is to remove the front sight block?

It seems to me that making a slightly taller font sight block might be less work than making a really low rail to allow a co-witness through the glass. If the front sight were maybe 3/8" to 1/2" taller then I could make a straight rail without the dog leg and also a taller rear peep that would co-witness through the glass. The possible combinations of optics and irons would open up a bunch.

Any thoughts?  What am I missing?


if your going to go that route, design a flip up front sight....

and to answer your question, it should have two pins in it that need to be knocked out. not hard. good solid punch and a mallet, two minutes and your done. the hard part is pulling the pressed on front sight. What i would use is an automotive gear puller.
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 6:27:48 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By calicojack:
on the smaller one...

drop it down like you did on the dog leg. how secure is it in your current model?


That won't work too well. What happens is it places the weight further back with more leverage on the leaf spring. It then moves around too easy.  I tried that by simply placing the red dot all the way to the front of the dog leg model.
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 6:28:05 PM EDT
oh, and if you need any beta testers... i'm game
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 6:36:16 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By calicojack:

if your going to go that route, design a flip up front sight....


What benefit would the flip up front sight provide?  If i can size it correctly so that it sits in the bottom 1/4 to 1/3 of the glass it doesn't seem like it would be bothersome. I see the AR's with flip up everything. Why do they do that?
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 6:38:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2008 6:40:04 PM EDT by calicojack]
it's used for distance scopes, so that the sight does not interfere with the sight picture.\

which if i do end up getting a "beryl" style rail, which is what both yours and dph's designs technically are, i'll have both a red dot and a distance scope on quick release mounts. effectively making my ak an spr of sorts.
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 7:29:48 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By calicojack:
it's used for distance scopes, so that the sight does not interfere with the sight picture.\

which if i do end up getting a "beryl" style rail, which is what both yours and dph's designs technically are, i'll have both a red dot and a distance scope on quick release mounts. effectively making my ak an spr of sorts.


Cool, I get it.  Actually, when I started down this road I was just looking to make a steady and precise scope rail that sat low enough that I didn't have to put my chin on the buttstock to look through the optic. Then the requirements started to creep to include a reflex, co-witnessing, peeps, folding BUIS...

Link Posted: 10/7/2008 8:23:31 PM EDT
A clamp on front sight, flip or not would be nice.  I have added peep sights to some of my AK's and needed to cut and weld the existing front sight to make things work properly.  A clamp on model would have been much easier and would allow for windage adjustment without repeated trial and error, wasted ammo, trips to the range.....
Link Posted: 10/7/2008 8:37:17 PM EDT
I agree with you on that one. Some of these things seem kind of obvious but, I don't see available solutions out there for whatever reason. How much did you have to raise your front sight?

It seems to me like a complete solution to make this set-up work properly will need to include a taller front sight, beryl type rail, and adjustable rear peep sight. A kit like this would allow you to configure the weapon with your choice of most any reflex, a scope, or simply use the peep with the doubled sight radius. Quickly configure for the particular day's shooting as needed.



Link Posted: 10/10/2008 11:02:18 AM EDT
so what's the latest word?
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 2:01:44 PM EDT
Well, after lots of measuring and researching different iron sights and optic combinations etc.. it almost  seems that for little more effort one could make a top cover inspired by this FNH. Nice loooong flat top rail that you could attach an unlimited number of combinations to. I don't know that I'll do this but, I am looking into the feasibility right now.

Whataya think?

http://www.fnhusa.com/support/images/dynamic/milm/FNM0110mb.png
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 2:12:52 PM EDT
omfg. nut. you owe me a keyboard.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 2:17:44 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By calicojack:
omfg. nut. you owe me a keyboard.


I'm guessing you like it.

I might be cutting metal as early as tomorrow. One of the perks of being a gun owner that owns a machine shop.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 2:52:19 PM EDT
now if you could make up a lower tri-rail hand guard that resembles the mounting mechanism of the ultimak, that was under $150 you'd be the shiznizzle.
Link Posted: 10/16/2008 3:28:01 PM EDT
any updates?
Link Posted: 10/17/2008 7:33:03 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By calicojack:
any updates?


This next phase of my project was a much larger undertaking than expected. However here are a couple of pics I just took tonight. Lighting is crappy but, as the project moves along I'll take better pics outdoors under natural lighting.  The basic concept is moving in a direction I like a whole lot better. What do you think?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/2951007216_bb8b10e0b0.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2951007962_aa47e781a0.jpg?v=0

Link Posted: 10/18/2008 10:17:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2008 10:17:50 AM EDT by AK47CBR]
That's awesome! Is this something you plan on producing? Does it replace the dust cover or mount over it?
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 11:31:27 AM EDT
i'm so down for that. i'll volunteer for a beta tester program. your going to need a higher front sight. and we'd have to figure out how to zero it.
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 1:48:03 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By AK47CBR:
That's awesome! Is this something you plan on producing? Does it replace the dust cover or mount over it?


It is something I plan on producing. It didn't really start out that way. I was just goofing around with my AK and before I knew it, there I was doing new product development.

It does replace the dust cover altogether. This thing is so different than the Dog Leg rail I started this thread on that I think I should start a new thread for this rail system. I'll provide some further details and pics on that new thread. Thanks for the help so far. You too Calicojack.
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 1:58:28 PM EDT
Do you plan on producing both systems, or is the dog-leg dead?  I prefer the simplicity of the dog-leg (or a variation thereof) myself.
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 2:03:18 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By Liquidmetal:
Do you plan on producing both systems, or is the dog-leg dead?  I prefer the simplicity of the dog-leg (or a variation thereof) myself.


I plan on both systems.  The Dog Leg is just on hold for a little while until I get the Flat Top done.
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 4:37:58 PM EDT
better start thinking about pricing too. if it's kreb's cost ratio, it <might> not do very in terms of volume. Personally i subscribe to the volume over gross profit school of thought. meaning if you sell more at a lower profit margin, you'll very quickly make more than you would if you place a large price tag on them and sell only a couple.
Link Posted: 10/20/2008 12:37:50 PM EDT
i sent you a message about one of your dog leg's. I've got an immediate need for a beryl style rail, and like yours over dpharm's atm. if you could, please reply to it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2008 6:22:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2008 6:26:26 PM EDT by mcad3333]
i like it first monolithic rail for an ak. can you put a step down in it like your dog leg rail to allow co witness. maybe make a cut out for the sight block so it could poke out the top similar to the ar carbine rails that are cut out for the front sight. also figure out a way to hinge it so you can clean the rifle. also create an extension on the end that also has a rail section but set to the height so an ar backup sight can be used. all of thes are just ideas and your already just came out with a very idea for the ak.
Link Posted: 10/23/2008 7:32:27 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By mcad3333:
i like it first monolithic rail for an ak. can you put a step down in it like your dog leg rail to allow co witness. maybe make a cut out for the sight block so it could poke out the top similar to the ar carbine rails that are cut out for the front sight. also figure out a way to hinge it so you can clean the rifle. also create an extension on the end that also has a rail section but set to the height so an ar backup sight can be used. all of thes are just ideas and your already just came out with a very idea for the ak.


What a good idea!!!! A hole in the rail to let the rear sight block poke through. I can't believe that one totally escaped me. It may or may not look a little funny I'll have to try and see. Tomorrow morning I'm going to cut a hole in it to see if it works. The only concern I have is it may weaken the rail and allow it to flex. I'll just have to cut it up and try it.

Putting a dog leg in the flat top isn't compatible with the design as it stands now. The only reason I had put the step in the Dog Leg rail was to try and make the rear end low enough so a BUIS could co-witness through the optic's glass with the front sight. In practice it didn't work. I couldn't find a red dot that was low enough. That's what lead me to develop the long flat top design which measures about 18 inches. Now you can have both the iron sights and the optic all mounted on the same plane which gives you unlimited sighting options.

The cover will hinge at the front. The method was explained in an earlier post.

I'll copy and paste this entry into the Flat Top's thread so others can follow.
Link Posted: 10/23/2008 9:57:49 PM EDT
Personally I would prefer minimalist features with simple functions - just like the AK itself.
All the AR type stuff just ruins this choice of weapon IMHO.

I'd just like to be able to mount an optic on top and be able to co-witness the standard AK sighting system. If that means cutting a groove in the middle of the rail and maintain the original rear sight thats OK.  
If it means creating a new rear sight of AK design that is positioned at the rear of the rail (to give a longer sight pattern) thats OK too.
Moving things up real tall to accomplish this is not good either.

Peep sights improve your accuracy but if you are going to put optics on top then you are adding two (2) "precision aiming" devices [not sure what other word to use]
With a top rail for optics (ie, precision aiming) I think its best to have the original iron "combat sights" as the compliment.

Please.... no flip up stuff.  Thats available via countless AR folks

Just my 2cents

Best wishes

Harv
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