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Posted: 5/26/2003 4:26:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2003 4:33:27 PM EDT by 4gma]
Well, another day at the range today and guess what - my AR went down for the count. Of course this is not just any AR. It is tricked out with a real M4 Colt upper, preban Colt lower, Jp trigger, Aimpoint, ggg buis, PRI front sight, Giles tactical sling, BMAS, vert. forgrip, KAC grip, Surefire light, Redi-mag, ZM weapons comp --- THE WORKS. This is one cool looking, tricked out, high speed low drag, jammed so bad I couldnt fix it at the range, piece of shit!

I have about 2K in the damn thing and I was shooting some reloads loaded with surplus powder that SUCKS (only about half of it actually burns and the rest just contributes to crapping up the chamber/action. So after deciding that the Bargin reloads (cost $48/1000 to load) were not going to cut it, we figured whats the best way to unload mags? Dump them down range. This turned out to be more of exercise in malfunction drills so we gave up and unloaded the mags by hand. Switched to South african surplus. I was willing to give the AR's the benefit of the doubt and blame it on the Bargin reloads, knowing often as not you get what you pay for. WE even decided, "Hell we will clean our chambers just to get all the unburnt powder out before we shoot the SA." 20 rounds later my bolt and carrier were jammed over the hammer and I was screwed. My shooting buddy got so tried of his Bushy jamming that he pulled out his Krink. My rifle was so jammed, I couldnt fix it with the tools I had at the range. If this would have been a live or die kind of thing I would have been armed with a glock and avery expensive club!

I then switched to the SAM7. No optics, CQB solutions tactical sling and proceeded to burn 500 rounds of CHEAP, SHITTY, Russian, Barnaul HP. Ranges from 2- 200 yards, Zero malfunctions, hit everyting I aimed at, and I never worried about how dirty my chamber was getting! No probs with the Krink either - shooting Wolf, norinco, and barnaul.

When I got home, I removed the AR's stock and buffer tube. Then I had to use a thin putty knife to hold down the hammer to get the bolt/carrier to slide forward. I totally stripped the lower and could find no reason for this jam. When I put it back together, everything worked like it was supposed to. Maybe some unburnt powder in the wrong place? Who knows?

Of course, that's my point. Would an Ak jam because of some unburnt powder grains? I think not. Even a poorly built SAR will run and run and run with a crooked gas system and a canted front sight.

I guess the fact that there is rarely a real problem posted in the AK trouble shooting section says it all. AK's are more reliable and less ammo sensitive than AR's. They are also a shit load cheaper - even if you buy the best out there and put optics on it!

I wish I could say this was the only malfunction I have every had with an AR or a M16 but its not. I have had or seen every manufacturers AR/m16 crap out. I have rarely seen an AK go down. In fact when I lived in the Sinai (80's) we would occassionally find them left over from the '73 war, blow them out with compressed air, slap a new mag in them and they almost always ran! I'm pretty sure a M16 could'nt perform under the 10 year sand immersion test conditions!

Ok the rants over. I just need to shoot an email to Tantal to get a siderail mount and a Kobra.

Maybe I should post this in the AR forums and stir up some controversy...
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:42:16 PM EDT
"Jp trigger, Aimpoint, ggg buis, PRI front sight, Giles tactical sling, BMAS, vert. forgrip, KAC grip, Surefire light, Redi-mag, ZM weapons comp --- THE WORKS. This is one cool looking, tricked out, high speed low drag, jammed so bad I couldnt fix it at the range, piece of shit!"

I dunno, sounds kinda high-drag to me...

I've burned through tons of crappy Wolf .223 in my Bushmaster and it never has jammed. I can't figure out what the deal is with ARs vs. AKs, I see so many conflicting reports and I haven't had a jam out of either personally.

Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:42:32 PM EDT
You're blaming your AR?
Ever hear the saying, "you are what you eat?"
Well, you fed your rifle shit. The rest you can figure out. How's that for controversy?

I'm an AR fan but I like AK's alot. Can't seem to stop buying either of the two. I'd still take an AR over the AK, though, but I wouldn't do to mine what you did to yours.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:44:47 PM EDT
I'm sure they'll blame everything on the ammo you used. You should stick with Federal XM193 or what I use Winchester Q3131A OR brand new 62 grain M855 from Ammoman. I never have problems with my AR-15 as a result.

HOWEVER, I do know what you're talking about. The SAM-7 is much less sensitive to such things as ammo, sand or whatever you throw at it.

Let's face it, 200 yards in for most people, an AK-74 or SAM-7 or AK-103 will do what most folks want to do with the rifle: Shoot man size targets, steel gongs, milk jugs, soda cans or whatever. Most people will never bother using a Surefire light, night vision device, laser sight, etc. for extremely special situations such as CQB entry or night assaults, which is about the only reason I would keep a M4 around. It sucks that suppressors aren't 100% legal and easy to obtain (I know you can get them in 30 states but you must use them on prebans). That would be the only M4 I would have: flattop, Eotech or Aimpoint, NVD + suppressor. Great home defense rifle.

If I'm just shooting at the range during the day though and I'm not out to put bullets through the same hole (I have a bolt action or Ruger 10/22 for that s#$t), an AK is the way to go. The ammo is dirt cheap, and the gun is very reliable. In fact, if I was going to Thunder Ranch or Frontsight, I would probably take an AK over an AR, unless I'm doing something that required me to use a NVD or flashlight mounted on my weapon.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:46:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:51:06 PM EDT
I only own one AR at this time, and it has become a safe queen.

Welcome to the DARK SIDE!
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:55:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2003 5:17:26 PM EDT by drjarhead]

Originally Posted By themao:
I'm sure they'll blame everything on the ammo you used.



Ya think?!!

Though I would agree on the AK's enhanced reliability, to some degree, I would like to see what would happen if you did the same to an AK. Just an experiment of sorts.

One more thing, 4gma, think about using a little gunscrubber on your AR and I'd sure shoot some down the gastube. My advice anyhow.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 4:55:16 PM EDT
I hear you! I just built my first AR and the F'n thing won't function right. Even had a couple AR guys look it over and they say everything is built correctly. Piece of shit won't cycle. Now...I think if a weapon is this touchy how could you ever trust it? I don't have an AK but I do have a Russian SKS that is awesome! I can break it down it 5 minutes with a punch, it never has jammed even after hundreds of rounds with Wolf ammo. I tried my AR again today and it jammed again. I think I am going to part it out, and take the money and purchase an AK.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 5:06:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 4gma:
It is tricked out with a real M4 Colt upper, preban Colt lower, Jp trigger, Aimpoint, ggg buis, PRI front sight, Giles tactical sling, BMAS, vert. forgrip, KAC grip, Surefire light, Redi-mag, ZM weapons comp --- THE WORKS.



What the hell are all those things? Is it a rifle or a Swiss army knife?

Just give me a standard no frills Mauser and ammo and I'll show you how to shoot the bad guy in the head at 250 meters. They will run away before you need all that stuff on your AR.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 5:15:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dogcatcher223:
I hear you! I just built my first AR and the F'n thing won't function right. Even had a couple AR guys look it over and they say everything is built correctly. Piece of shit won't cycle.



What happens?


I tried my AR again today and it jammed again. I think I am going to part it out, and take the money and purchase an AK.


Don't regret buying any of the AK's I own. Just bought an SA-85M.
Of course, I don't regret buying any of the AR's I own either. Built or rebuilt 3, one is Colt factory preban. Only had a problem with one and it was most easily resolved.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 5:27:45 PM EDT
You folks are convincing me.

I'm beginning to understand that I can buy say an SAR-2 for round numbers $300, add an RSA trigger for another hundred round, a different stock for say another hundred and one more hundred for ____________ and have a very fine rifle and still only $600 invested !! There's just no equivalent in the AR world.

Now I'm still gonna have a couple or four AR-180's (The AR-180 is THE best value in all preban AR's. IMHO) AR-15's and AR-10's but I'm also gonna have me some AK's !! (I've owned Galil's and Valmet's in the past but that was NIB, collector schittt.)
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 5:54:23 PM EDT
I admitted and still do the reloads were SHIT. THEY SUCKED! But what about the SA? This is the forth case of 2700 rounds we have been through and not really had any problems. I could go on about my buddy's new Bushmaster that's been back to the factory after 200 rounds of single fire turned to burst fire - new disconector. Or the fact that he's on his second bolt because the first one cracked after 500 rounds of federal XM 193 --- Blah, blah, blah.

AR's are more accurate - period. They are less reliable in my experience.

Yes, I know how to clean one, build one, trouble shoot one, etc. I know this because, unfortunitely, I have had to work on them alot more. I cant trouble shoot an AK - other than, rack the bolt back and put in another mag because I have never had to do anything else to get on to run. Oh, forgot, clean it occassionally and oil the shit out of it. That's My AK Manual of Arms.

OK, Continue Flaming me.

Shit, I thought I'd get some sympathy over here! I'm starting to feel like Jane Fonda at a Vietnam Vet Rally!


Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:06:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead: One more thing, 4gma, think about using a little gunscrubber on your AR and I'd sure shoot some down the gastube. My advice anyhow.


UM, before anyone does that, make damn sure you put the gun inverted (buttstock on the ground) and let the gas tube drain overnight. You actually don't even need to put anything down the gas tube according to Troy and a few others on the AR side. The gas tube sprays that s#$t at 40,000 psi back onto the bolt carrier's key hole. The insides of the tube itself are clean.

Where an AR-15 runs into trouble is when the bolt and bolt carrier surfaces aren't properly lubed wtih CLP/TW-25 or gummed up due a ton of powder residue. The only time I've seen problems with the bolt carrier mating the rails is during bad ammo, buffer tube/spring or a magazine problem. Bolt face to barrel extension shouldn't be a problem (or otherwise you didn't put it together right or the whole damn thing is out of spec). I'm sure there's more horror stories, but that's what I've seen the most.

Key to a good AR-15:

- Stick with mil-spec/standard parts

- use CLP on the bolt, bolt carrier and mated surfaces that are under friction during firing

- use USGI aluminum or English steel magazines with green plastic followers and USGI or Wolffe springs

- shoot nothing less than mil-spec (XM193, Win USA/IMI Q3131A) or better commercial ammo like Black Hills. Stay away from the foreign surplus crap

I've had 750 rounds through my AR over the past year, and I've yet to clean the bolt or bolt carrier, other than placing a little dab of CLP onto the edges between the bolt and bolt face before I go out and shoot. Even on a few occasions, the rifle ran without malfunctions when I forgot to lube the rifle. I shoot excusively Q3131A Win USA ammo, made in my favorite socialist country of the world, Israel.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:08:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
i own 9 or 10 ar's. dunno, most of them have sat for so long.



Sign you have too many f@#king guns in the house: You forget how many AR-15s you own

Lay off the Hoppe's Campy!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:12:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 4gma:
I admitted and still do the reloads were SHIT. THEY SUCKED! But what about the SA? This is the forth case of 2700 rounds we have been through and not really had any problems. I could go on about my buddy's new Bushmaster that's been back to the factory after 200 rounds of single fire turned to burst fire - new disconector. Or the fact that he's on his second bolt because the first one cracked after 500 rounds of federal XM 193 --- Blah, blah, blah.



Just a few FWIW's:
1]The south African is fairly dirty ammo. After the other crap you ran thru it I'm not surprised it didn't take much. Gunscrubber, gunscrubber, gunscrubber...
2]bad disconnector? that sucks.
3]I hear ya about the bolt breakage. They had a bad lot it seems. Heard about this from alot of people. Hopefully that has been dealt with


AR's are more accurate - period. They are less reliable in my experience.


All givens



OK, Continue Flaming me.


OK, I am the flamemeister
Just kidding. nobody hear is flaming you at all. This is the usual around here and I post here mostly because everyone here is friendlier!


Shit, I thought I'd get some sympathy over here! I'm starting to feel like Jane Fonda at a Vietnam Vet Rally!


Oh, you came here for sympathy?Try the second door on the right.

I'll tell ya what though. If ya look like Jane Fonda in a swimsuit you can probably get whatever you want around here.


Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:17:45 PM EDT
Themao,
I don't usually do anything to clean my gas tube but after the crap he ran thru it, I would.
Got a feeling he's going to have more problems. AR's are a little finicky and you can't run crap ammo thru 'em.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:18:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:I'll tell ya what though. If ya look like Jane Fonda in a swimsuit you can probably get whatever you want around here.


Doctor, you should have been an OB/GYN.

Only problem is the malpractice insurance today. Everyone's just during the GYN and not the OB because of it.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:20:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Originally Posted By dogcatcher223:
I hear you! I just built my first AR and the F'n thing won't function right. Even had a couple AR guys look it over and they say everything is built correctly. Piece of shit won't cycle.



What happens?


What happens is I fire and the bolt/carrier slides back about half way through the ejection port and stops. I took off my aftermarket gas block and installed the original A2 factory base. Did not matter, still jams. And then the one time it did eject the carrier failed to slide all the way forward. Just stopped for no reason. I am about to give up on the gun. It is built from all brand new parts. Here is what it is...
DPMS Hbar 20"
RRA A4 upper
DPMS forged lower
Accuracy Speaks FF handguard
A2 stock
DPMS magazine, and tried a Orlite mag also.
Model 1 parts kit
Model 1 charging handle
New bolt and carrier (FN?)

Please tell me if any of these parts are trully junk. You won't hurt my feelings. I am wondering if I got one of those non-millspec uppers that I heard RRA made awhile back???? Don't know what else to try. Tired of sinking money into this gun. I don't want to buy two of everything before I find out what part(s) is causing problems.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:28:34 PM EDT
Sounds like you need to sell your AR's and buy more AK's. If you really want to find out what is wrong with you AR's, post your actual problems, FTF,FTE, etc in the troubleshooting forum in the AR section, I'm sure DANO523 or someone else will be more than willing to help you out.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:35:27 PM EDT

I'll tell ya what though. If ya look like Jane Fonda in a swimsuit you can probably get whatever you want around here.


Sorry, just an ex-enlisted scum 11b, ex-ER doc, now OB/GYN. And yes, its just not the same for me anymore...


Just kidding. nobody hear is flaming you at all. This is the usual around here and I post here mostly because everyone here is friendlier!


I was really just making fun of myself - all this $$ invested and the Ak that cost 1/4 as much is like the energizer bunny. Its just annoying to have to spend so much time screwing with the damn things, I'd rather be shooting them!

I agree this side is much "friendlier"


One more thing, 4gma, think about using a little gunscrubber on your AR and I'd sure shoot some down the gastube. My advice anyhow.


Gunscrubber!!!??? that's for cleaning stuff that's not really dirty! I have stuffed, dripped and soaked all kinds of liquids and solids into gas tubes. THe best is some kroil and shooters choice mixed and an overnight soak. My new method is when you rebarrel, get a new gas tube - they are cheap and you dont have carbon/oil shit all over your floor the next morning!

Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:42:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dogcatcher223:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Originally Posted By dogcatcher223:
I hear you! I just built my first AR and the F'n thing won't function right. Even had a couple AR guys look it over and they say everything is built correctly. Piece of shit won't cycle.



What happens?


What happens is I fire and the bolt/carrier slides back about half way through the ejection port and stops. I took off my aftermarket gas block and installed the original A2 factory base. Did not matter, still jams. And then the one time it did eject the carrier failed to slide all the way forward. Just stopped for no reason. I am about to give up on the gun. It is built from all brand new parts. Here is what it is...
DPMS Hbar 20"
RRA A4 upper
DPMS forged lower
Accuracy Speaks FF handguard
A2 stock
DPMS magazine, and tried a Orlite mag also.
Model 1 parts kit
Model 1 charging handle
New bolt and carrier (FN?)



Holy shit. what a conglomeration! Sounds like the PWA I bought and stripped down to nothing but the receiver. Rebuilt with Bushy lower parts kit, Bushy CAR stock and Colt M4 complete upper. Runs like a champ, most accurate AR I own.
Damn thing wouldn't pull back on safe. Really cheesy trigger in that thing. Got the rifle for $500 because of it though. He had more different manufacture parts in that thing than I've ever seen in a rifle.

Anyway,
First, try a decent mag. USGI. Percentage wise this is likely the cause. Personally doubt it will be that easy though.

The second most likely culprit might be one of your Model 1 parts. Probably one of your FCG parts. You never know though. Only takes one part to throw a wrench in the works and I've heard of people having similar problems and finally changing uppers, etc. before they would run right. If you know someone with a different upper try it out. If still a problem is your lower or mags. A lower parts kit is cheap.

Does it cycle manually okay?

Are your buffer and spring correct for the model you have?

What if you pull on the charging handle manually after shooting? Move slowly or is it stuck?

Hey, everyone comes into my office and wants to play doctor. You can't blame me for wanting to play gunsmith

Have you asked on the build it yourself AR forum?

Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:48:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2003 6:53:07 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]

What happens is I fire and the bolt/carrier slides back about half way through the ejection port and stops. I took off my aftermarket gas block and installed the original A2 factory base. Did not matter, still jams. And then the one time it did eject the carrier failed to slide all the way forward. Just stopped for no reason. I am about to give up on the gun. It is built from all brand new parts. Here is what it is...
DPMS Hbar 20"




I think I know what is wrong. Your gas tube is mis-indexed and is not sliding into the carrier key.

Your barrel nut(or float tube) does not have its slot aligned with the hole in the upper properly.

BTW I have shot in excess of 4000 rounds of the SA Battlepack stuff and I love it.

I have put more than 1K rounds of this stuff thru my CIA Franken A1 and thur my M4gery at a single go with no cleaning and no problemos!

There are some shit parts floating around in the AR world and even Bushmaster and Armalite and Colt put some crap on the market from time to time.

I was an Armorer in the Army for three years and never saw anything approaching the horror stories recieted on the web at times. If fact, you would be amazed just how much sand and crap they can have inside them and still work!

But Uncle Sugar will reject an entire lot of rifles if too many exceed the failure spec.

The manufactuer looses mucho dinero and therefore has mucho incentive to get it right the first time.

....then they take the reject rifles and strip the parts and re-cycle them into AR config parts and you get broken bolts, bad disconnectors in the AR world.

What uncle sugar rejects, gets sold to us!

CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!!!



Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:54:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 4gma:


Sorry, just an ex-enlisted scum 11b, ex-ER doc, now OB/GYN. And yes, its just not the same for me anymore...



No shit?
Ex-enlisted also. Then college, Mayo Clinic as a microbiologist, Med School, Family Practice and now urgent care.
...and if I have do one more pelvic on some fat, ugly, smelly skank with puss running out of her crotch I think I'll blow my f'ing brains out
Who the hell screws these sluts, anyway? Yuck.

Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:57:17 PM EDT

Who the hell screws these sluts, anyway? Yuck.


Not me!!!

Fat Wimmin for Fat Men and Skinny Wimmin for Skinny Guys like me!

That's the proper natural order!
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 7:33:18 PM EDT
Well, my basic Armalite was a jammomatic when I first got it. But after about 400 cycles by hand and another cleaning, it has just hummed along ever since. After the bolt/carrier/upper mated in together everything has been in it's happy place.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 7:42:35 PM EDT
The hole is definitely indexed. I can slide the tube in an out easily, and can see it clearly. It does not have resistance when the key slides over the tube. I have a standard A2 stock with standard buffer and spring. The Model 1 parts all went in pretty easily. I had to sand the selector a bit to get it to slide all the way through and file the back of the trigger slightly cause it sat up too high which was blocking the selector.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 7:51:02 PM EDT
The only other thing that could cause the bolt to hang in that position is the hammer notch catching on the firing pin collar.

A bad Disconnector or Disconnector spring could caus that.
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 7:53:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dogcatcher223:
The hole is definitely indexed. I can slide the tube in an out easily, and can see it clearly. It does not have resistance when the key slides over the tube. I have a standard A2 stock with standard buffer and spring. The Model 1 parts all went in pretty easily. I had to sand the selector a bit to get it to slide all the way through and file the back of the trigger slightly cause it sat up too high which was blocking the selector.



Could be your trigger. Might be causing the hammer to sit high and impinge on free movement of the carrier. Maybe.

What happens if you cycle it manually?!! On safe? Off safe? With a mag? Without a mag?
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 8:45:50 PM EDT
I can run a whole clip through it manually with the charging handle on both safe and fire. I looked for wear marks on the hammer and disconnector and they are still black. I cannot wait to unravel this mystery and post on here what it was to help out the next poor bastard that has these problems! A member here sounds like he is going to give my gun a work over and get it going for me!!! :)
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 9:44:30 PM EDT
Drjarhead,

I got real tired of the ER, "I wants my Lortab." Bullshit and moved on. I really got to the point that I was starting to hate people after all the stupid shit one sees in the ER. Also found that death really pissed me off, so now I'm an Ob and pretty much nobody dies and when theyre really sick I can make them better (really its a matter that my patients are generally young and healthy therefore hard to kill)


Who the hell screws these sluts, anyway? Yuck.


Obviously, Your education was lacking (dont the Marines have some story about a girl named Suzie Rotten Crotch?) -- You did not learn the EIGHTH DICTUM OF WELFARE MEDICINE:

(earth trembling)

For every Pig, there is a Pig fucker

Truly an indisputable fact.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 5:59:43 AM EDT
Sorry to hear about all your problems. I know it pisses you off while your at the range. I have a Bulgie AK that was a jamming monster.I have figured out the problem,ejctor tab (OOW receiver). I tweaked the receiver and its been fine for the last 60 rnds. Im going back to the range tommorrow to put more through her.But What Im saying to ya is ," It's not the design of the rifle its out of spec parts normally that is the problem.Or the guy that put it togethers (headspace and timing ) LOL...:) .I love many different style and designs of weapons(rifles).The M16/AR15 is one on or near the top of my list.Love M14's and starting to get into FAL's...Ive come to apreciate the AK.I own several now.But for as much as I love there simpisity, they also have a down side to there friendly userness( I think that might be a word :) ) ...Ive been around AR's for 30 years.All have been Colts and BushMasters.The stoppages can be put on one hand...But I will give the nod to the AK for most reliable assualt rifle made to date that I personally have fired.But that alone wouldn't sway me to grab my it over my AR in the case of SHTF.I just have alot of confidence in my rifle.But saying that when I get a rifle ( surplus, ect...) and it doesn't function reliable , I work on it and try to figure out the problems. It educates you one the rifle and is like a good mystery to figure out.I have a French MAS 49/56 7.5 and its accurate but won't cycle to eject the round.I put it in the safe for a year now and Im about to dig into her and get her straight.Cheers WarDawg
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 6:18:34 AM EDT
I'm sorry, I'm still laughing about $2,000 for an AR and $48 for 1,000 rounds of ammo.

I might suggest you spend $800 on the rifle and $200 on the ammo next time.

I like my AKs too but don't see them as the same weapon as an AR. They very different in purpose and performance. Yes my AK feeds flawlessly but the bullet drops 60" the height of a man in 300 meters. Less than 100 meters, it has one hell of a punch.

Different.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 7:35:41 AM EDT

Suzie Rotten Crotch


I thought it was Mary Jane Rotten Crotch?
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 7:39:18 AM EDT
No, it's Susie!
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 8:12:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dogcatcher223:
I can run a whole clip through it manually with the charging handle on both safe and fire. I looked for wear marks on the hammer and disconnector and they are still black. I cannot wait to unravel this mystery and post on here what it was to help out the next poor bastard that has these problems! A member here sounds like he is going to give my gun a work over and get it going for me!!! :)



Based on this I have to agree with the diagnosis of a gas system problem. But why is the bolt/carrier hanging up in the reciever? You would expect it to go back forward unless the case is impacting after being pulled out laterally by the extractor. I that is the case, then why did the bolt extract and eject once, only to then have the bolt/carrier only come part of the way forward?

Interesting to say the least but not to you I'm sure. Tell us how this one turns out, would ya?
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 8:29:32 AM EDT
To diagnose gas problems, single load a mag and see if it is going back far enough to lock the bolt to the rear.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 9:34:41 AM EDT
drjarhead; You addressed a question that has long haunted me; how can these ob/gyns look at these skanky, old crotches all day long? Now I know that at least one of you can only take so much. BTW, I would think any MD would know that pus is not spelled 'puss', but in the context used in your post may just be a new word!
To the question, though, the hammer is out of spec in some way and is getting jammed under the carrier on the load stroke. This could happen if the profile of the hammer was a little 'off' and there was a lubrication/contamination problem. Perhaps the bottom of the carrier needs to be polished. Put a mil spec hammer in it and clean the gun. Use FP-10 as your gun oil.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 10:57:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1saxman:
drjarhead; You addressed a question that has long haunted me; how can these ob/gyns look at these skanky, old crotches all day long? Now I know that at least one of you can only take so much.



It gets harder every day, I'll tell ya!


BTW, I would think any MD would know that pus is not spelled 'puss', but in the context used in your post may just be a new word!


As much as I would like to take credit for the addition of a new word to the english language I can only plead guilty to a double tap.
Or maybe I'm not a doctor at all. Maybe I'm a carpenter who saw one to many episodes of General Hospital or ER!
To be honest, I'd like to be a garbage man. Nobody screws with you and you get to work outside. Sounds pretty damn good some days.
Go ahead, ask me a medical question. Just please don't tell me about the purulent(how's that) penile discharge you're having though. I guess you're the ONE!! Aggghhhh...go away...go away...


To the question, though, the hammer is out of spec in some way and is getting jammed under the carrier on the load stroke. This could happen if the profile of the hammer was a little 'off' and there was a lubrication/contamination problem. Perhaps the bottom of the carrier needs to be polished. Put a mil spec hammer in it and clean the gun. Use FP-10 as your gun oil.


That's initially what I thought but why would the bolt/carrier move freely with manual use? What he's describing to me makes no sense. I'd love to get my hands on that rifle.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 12:08:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dogcatcher223:
I can run a whole clip through it manually with the charging handle on both safe and fire. I looked for wear marks on the hammer and disconnector and they are still black. I cannot wait to unravel this mystery and post on here what it was to help out the next poor bastard that has these problems! A member here sounds like he is going to give my gun a work over and get it going for me!!! :)



Where are you at? Maybe we can get together and swap out some parts until we can narrow down the problem. Or should I just bring along some $$$ to take it off of your hands

SRM
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 12:53:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
I like my AKs too but don't see them as the same weapon as an AR. They very different in purpose and performance. Yes my AK feeds flawlessly but the bullet drops 60" the height of a man in 300 meters. Less than 100 meters, it has one hell of a punch.


At 300 meters the .30 cal. round of the 7.62x39 is more potent than the .22 round of the 5.56x45. I believe this also is true at 200 meters. Everything's a trade-off.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 7:22:12 PM EDT

At 300 meters the .30 cal. round of the 7.62x39 is more potent than the .22 round of the 5.56x45. I believe this also is true at 200 meters. Everything's a trade-off.


More energy does not equal more potent.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 8:38:16 PM EDT
"....then they take the reject rifles and strip the parts and re-cycle them into AR config parts and you get broken bolts, bad disconnectors in the AR world."

HeavyMetal - you have hit on what causes 90 percent of the Malfuntions in ARs.. along with too many highspeed low drag parts... 1911s are saddled with the same problems for the same reasons.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 8:43:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

At 300 meters the .30 cal. round of the 7.62x39 is more potent than the .22 round of the 5.56x45. I believe this also is true at 200 meters. Everything's a trade-off.


More energy does not equal more potent.



Never mentioned energy.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:46:31 AM EDT
more energy deposited into the body does equal more potent.

That is why I don't think it is reasonable to compare a .22 to a .223. My 3 cents.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:42:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
more energy deposited into the body does equal more potent.



Yes but I was only stating that after the .223 is past it's fragment range (50-190m meters depending) the larger round will simply do more damage.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:54:20 AM EDT
Even though its past its fragmentation range, it still will tumble readily where most 7.62x39 ball rounds wont.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 8:13:36 AM EDT
Yeah, the 7.62x39 has a definite tendency to overpenetrate. Not always a bad thing, of course, but it does mean that alot of energy is carried out beyond the object being hit and is not left within it. Energy is everything!

Okay, that's my fourth centavo.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 9:49:24 AM EDT
drjarhead; I'll admit to not being too picky in my old age, but for once, it wasn't me. I had my last 'discharge' back in '67, and it was honorable. I guess I can see how the carrier could jam at cycling speed but not at the glacial speed of hand operation - a matter of timing, with the positions of the hammer and carrier being dictated by the strength/condition of the associated springs. Whatever the reason for the jam, I'd say with near certainty it will prove to involve a combination of contamination and mismatched parts.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 11:01:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1saxman:
drjarhead; I'll admit to not being too picky in my old age, but for once, it wasn't me. I had my last 'discharge' back in '67, and it was honorable. I guess I can see how the carrier could jam at cycling speed but not at the glacial speed of hand operation - a matter of timing, with the positions of the hammer and carrier being dictated by the strength/condition of the associated springs. Whatever the reason for the jam, I'd say with near certainty it will prove to involve a combination of contamination and mismatched parts.



I'm not so sure about the speed of cycling having anything to do with this. Perhaps a gastube problem of some sort. Seems that you are either not getting enough force from gastube to carrier or it is hanging up on something...

Can you get the carrier to hang up manually at all? It shouldn't stop at all. Force of the buffer spring should slam it forward anywhere in the cycle except just prior to bolt engagement with chamber.
I guess I don't understand why the carrier is stopping. It shouldn't. Not unless something is stopping it. But then why does it cycle manually?

Bad part somewhere. If you don't figure it out remind me tonight and I'll check troubleshooting tips for this.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 11:08:50 AM EDT
Ya know, even if this is a gas problem, the bolt should not hang up like you described unless there is some part causing it to.

As stated previously(heavy metal, I think) put a single round in the mag and shoot it. What happens?
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 12:10:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 12:27:22 PM EDT by Belloc]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Even though its past its fragmentation range, it still will tumble readily where most 7.62x39 ball rounds wont.



Not so, if reports on the web are accurate. From Yoda-Dad on Assault Web and many others the 7.62 lead core tumbles very well.

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000369.html

As an aside, early yaw, similar to that exhibited by the 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ, is also produced with several other 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets, including the:

--Yugoslavian M67 124 gr FMJ, flat based, copper-jacketed, lead core bullet which travels only 3.5" in tissue before yawing
--the U.S. commercially produced 7.62 x 39 mm 124 gr FMJ, copper-jacketed, lead core bullets which travel only 3.9" before yawing
--Chinese Norinco 7.62 x 39 mm 123 gr FMJ, copper-jacketed, lead core bullets which begin their yaw after only 2 to 2.5" of travel in tissue.

In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, their very early yaw allows these bullets to travel sideways through the body, increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects compared to the standard 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS 120.5 gr FMJ. A small punctate entrance wound is present and the exit wound may be punctate, oblong, or stellate depending on the bullet yaw angle on exit. Penetration of these bullets is around 24.4”.


--------------------------


On top of this info is has been reported that Winchester X 7.62x39 fragments like 5.56 and Wolf tends to (according to results from YD that he reported on AW) corkscrew. In other words this ain't your daddies 7.62x39.

Here is great info on this round thanks to Yoda-Dad.

www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=005320#000016

www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=005402

www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=005350#000007

"The thing about the wolf FMJ is it dont yaw too tumble , once its sideways at maximum decelleration , the core flattens to that side within the jacket as it has a 'place' to squash into (the empty tip)and out the base. a bullet with all the mass on one side cant spin on its axis , because it no longer has one . the ballance has changed drasticly , now nearly even tip to base but , like a washerload of wet jeans with all the jeans on one side

If you were to spin a bucket of water like a top , with a divider in the middle, and pump all the water to one side while it was spinning you'd see it flop onto that heavy side . but the spin dont disappear , it just converts to radial from axiel and the heavy side stays down . acceleration/deceleration/gravity...its all the same thing.

If you go to a website with the 762x39 chinese jello test illistration from Fackler , look at the strech cavity when the bullet is sideways , and now see that at 4.5" into the jello all the way to maybe 25/30" . rotate the tip radialy 270 to 360 deg. on the way through , thats it."


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