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Posted: 9/10/2009 3:36:06 PM EST
Just got my new Saiga 5.45 from Centerfire. It shoots great and seems to be very accurate even with Russian surplus ammo. BUT I have Bulgarian 30-round 5.45 mags that apparently should not be used due to 922r issues. I do not want to get into that –– I want a rifle that is 100% for sure legal. So, assuming the Bulgie mags work great as many say they do, what is the cheapest way to get a legal rifle that will use these mags? I think a US mag follower and mag plate count as two compliant parts. A gas cylinder is one more as is a handguard. Does that get me legal to use the Bulgie mags? Anyone know where to get these parts at a reasonable price? I really only want to use non-US mags that are more than 10 round legally.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 5:01:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2009 5:03:11 PM EST by TX-Zen]
It's unconverted I assume?

I'm hazy on how sporters and 30 round mags work but I believe the rifle needs to be 922r compliant if you use the higher capacity mags.

Compliance is easy to calculate, basically rifles have 15 or 16 countable parts depending on if you have a removable brake or not. No more than 10 can be foreign, meaning that 5 or 6 must be US made. US made followers and floorplates do count as one each.

The easy way to get compliant is convert the rifle so that you can use US furniture and trigger components. A Tapco G2 trigger counts as 3 parts (hammer, trigger and disconnector), a US stock would be 1 and a US pistol grip would be your 5th part if you don't have a removable brake installed (which you shouldn't if it's unconverted). The conversion isn't difficult and can be done in a couple hours using hand tools, you'll just need to spend a few extra bucks on compliance parts.

The hard part about not converting is finding the US compliance parts. I'm not aware of any US made furniture other than perhaps BattleRifleG3 who makes a variety of custom stocks. He might make Saiga furniture too, I'd check over on Saiga-12.com. Matt at Ironwood might also make US Saiga sets but again I'm not sure. Finding a US trigger group to fit the sporter location on a Saiga will probably also be difficult, I haven't heard of that being done.

Without converting it seems like you'd only have 2 out of 5 required parts and it's not clear to me what you could change on the Saiga (other than the gas piston).


Z
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 5:47:46 PM EST
I think you could use the Surefire Saiga forearm for an easy swap out additional 922r part.

Otherwise you might need to change the gas piston for a US made (Tapco or either Dinzag or Hot Piston from Saiga 12)

or you could us a USA made floorplate to your bulgarian 5.45 mags for additional compliance part.

BIGGER_HAMMER
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 7:09:10 PM EST
Saiga are designed to comply with US import regulations to specifically NOT accept standard High Capacity magazines.

You would need to ad a feedramp to your Saiga if you wanted to convert to High Capacity Magazines.

SureFire makes a no feedramp needed High Capacity USA mag (counts as three USA parts) that has it's own feedramp built into the mag.

BIGGER_HAMMER
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:38:53 PM EST
I know there is a feedramp problem for 223 and maybe some other caliber. I have a friend who has shot a Saiga 5.45 using Bulgarian mags without any feedramp change without any problem at all. I think I will go for the Tapco handguard and gas piston an mag followers and baseplates. That should make 4 compliance parts from what I read, and that is the number I need I think. I have looked at the Surefure website but see no Surefire 5.45 mags. Does anyone know a source for US mag followers and floorplates???
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 5:14:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Saiga are designed to comply with US import regulations to specifically NOT accept standard High Capacity magazines.

You would need to ad a feedramp to your Saiga if you wanted to convert to High Capacity Magazines.

SureFire makes a no feedramp needed High Capacity USA mag (counts as three USA parts) that has it's own feedramp built into the mag.

BIGGER_HAMMER

Wrong Link skip to 7:54
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 6:00:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2009 6:08:25 PM EST by Bigger_Hammer]
Some people MIGHT get luck and get one that works with a standard military magazine without adding a feedramp, HOWEVER, There IS a reason that AKs have feedramps, and if you expect to use the gun as anything but a range toy, you sure ought to be able to depend on your AK. 7.62 and 5.56 Saigas are pretty unreliable without either the addition of a feedramp OR use of a magazine that provides the same effect (SureFire).

I haven't seen a 5.45 yet, (very familiar with 7.62 & 5.56 conversions) but unless the 5.45 already have proper feedramps, I sure wouldn't count on it for any serious duty without 100% reliable feeding.

BIGGER_HAMMER


Edited to Add - One of the BATFE requirements for the Saiga AKs to be importable was that they NOT accept standard Military High Capacity magazines. Thus the Saiga factory magazines have their own feedramp (as do SureFires) because the Saiga (7.62 & 5.56 at least) do not have the Normal AK feedramp per BATFE for import.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 6:16:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Some people MIGHT get luck and get one that works with a standard military magazine without adding a feedramp, HOWEVER, There IS a reason that AKs have feedramps, and if you expect to use the gun as anything but a range toy, you sure ought to be able to depend on your AK. 7.62 and 5.56 Saigas are pretty unreliable without either the addition of a feedramp OR use of a magazine that provides the same effect (SureFire).

I haven't seen a 5.45 yet, (very familiar with 7.62 & 5.56 conversions) but unless the 5.45 already have proper feedramps, I sure wouldn't count on it for any serious duty without 100% reliable feeding.

BIGGER_HAMMER


Edited to Add - One of the BATFE requirements for the Saiga AKs to be importable was that they NOT accept standard Military High Capacity magazines. Thus the Saiga factory magazines have their own feedramp (as do SureFires) because the Saiga (7.62 & 5.56 at least) do not have the Normal AK feedramp per BATFE for import.

When did they stop allowing guns that accepted military high cap mags into the country?

Link Posted: 9/13/2009 7:26:02 PM EST
The Russians agreed to export only "Sporting" style guns to the USA (thanks to Bill Clinton & BATFE) The FACT is that Saiga Rifles do NOT have the feedramp that AKs require to properly feed from a "standard Military Magazine". Dude, I don't know how many more ways to tell you the same thing over and over and over again. I've converted a bunch of saigas and everyone not running the factory Saiga maga (or SureFires which duplicate the Saiga design but in Higher capacity) will not feed with any reliability.

Why do you think that Saiga factory mags are NOT the same as other standard AK mags?. Take a factory Saiga mag and try to use it in a standard AK. If you can do it, by all means let us know!

Why do you think that people who count on their Saigas either (A) use SureFire converison mags (that give the feedramp effect) or (B) add a Feedramp and then modify the gun / mags for use?

WASRs are not imported with Dimpled receivers because they are Sporting (only accept a NON-MILITARY single stack mag) that Century then Modifies once the gun is Inside the USA to open the mag well to accept standard AK mags. Why do you think the Romanians don't / can't export "Standard" Dimpled AKs to us anymore?

You know that we would all much rather have a Military (dimpled) AK reciever than the slick side AKs that have to be routered out to fit standard AKs mags.

I don't make the idiot laws of the BATFE, I just have to live with the stupid results. Saigas (and other AKs) need feedramps to give reliable function. BATFE does not want Saigas to come into the USA with feedramps. You can argue the point on and on and on, but the Facts are the Facts...

BIGGER_HAMMER
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:45:07 AM EST
Try KVAR for the floor plates and there is a fella "grasshopper" ? that sells the US made followers for 5.45mags that are white plastic .
Someone please correct me if I have given the the wrong handle of the person selling the followers.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 8:40:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 9:40:20 AM EST by Citadel-SC]
deleted
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 11:16:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 11:27:22 AM EST by bloodsport2885]
Originally Posted By Ermac:
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Some people MIGHT get luck and get one that works with a standard military magazine without adding a feedramp, HOWEVER, There IS a reason that AKs have feedramps, and if you expect to use the gun as anything but a range toy, you sure ought to be able to depend on your AK. 7.62 and 5.56 Saigas are pretty unreliable without either the addition of a feedramp OR use of a magazine that provides the same effect (SureFire).

I haven't seen a 5.45 yet, (very familiar with 7.62 & 5.56 conversions) but unless the 5.45 already have proper feedramps, I sure wouldn't count on it for any serious duty without 100% reliable feeding.

BIGGER_HAMMER


Edited to Add - One of the BATFE requirements for the Saiga AKs to be importable was that they NOT accept standard Military High Capacity magazines. Thus the Saiga factory magazines have their own feedramp (as do SureFires) because the Saiga (7.62 & 5.56 at least) do not have the Normal AK feedramp per BATFE for import.

When did they stop allowing guns that accepted military high cap mags into the country?



1989 under Daddy Bush and his turncoats.

OP, the feedramp mod is simple if you have patience and simple tools. A hand drill and tap are enough.
Here is a walkthrough.
I recommend buying a real bullet guide instead of using pipe.

On most of my rifles I replace the fire control group for 3 parts, the gas piston, grip, and muzzle device to keep the foreign furniture. There are a host of parts that can be changed without having to do anything special to use unmodified foreign standard capacity mags, so it won't be a tough job.
See here for the parts list and info on Saiga parts count.

Whatever you do, don't dremel the chamber!!!
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