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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/17/2005 3:08:45 PM EDT
Since I'm being legal and installing the politically correct amount of U.S. made parts on my build should I also convert my carrier to a semi and remove the sear trip?
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 3:14:28 PM EDT
some states are overly anal
dont know about yours but its fine where im at but illegal in wa 1 state over

you know what they say better safe than sorry
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 3:51:29 PM EDT
Don't worry about it.



BTW, a FA carrier is not illegal in WA. They don't fit the definition of "solely and exclusively". Colt puts FA carriers in its rifles now, my Valmet 62 came with a FA carrier.

RCW 9.41.220

"All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun...are hereby declared to be contraband".

www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?section=9.41.220&fuseaction=section
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 4:21:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2005 4:22:30 PM EDT by frick]
"Colt puts FA carriers in its rifles now"

Umm, do you have pictures to prove it?

I was under the assumption that if LE finds there is one MG part in an AR 15, it will be seized and treated as a machine gun.

Colt made it a point YEARS ago to stop putting FA carriers in their guns, originally they just shortened the bottom to where it wouldnt work, then when the screw on adapters came out that restored the bottom to its full length towards the carrier front, they removed the entire bottom portion leaving it looking like a C instead of an O, so even that couldnt be used.

So why now would Colt start putting FA parts back in? Especially when they are so Anal about selling any AR to the general public.

Im calling BS on this one till I see proof.



Link Posted: 9/17/2005 4:44:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2005 4:45:34 PM EDT by frick]


The link is HERE on this site, I suggest you read it prior to putting M16 parts in an AR..........

www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 6:54:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 7:15:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By frick:
"Colt puts FA carriers in its rifles now"

Umm, do you have pictures to prove it?

I was under the assumption that if LE finds there is one MG part in an AR 15, it will be seized and treated as a machine gun.

Colt made it a point YEARS ago to stop putting FA carriers in their guns, originally they just shortened the bottom to where it wouldnt work, then when the screw on adapters came out that restored the bottom to its full length towards the carrier front, they removed the entire bottom portion leaving it looking like a C instead of an O, so even that couldnt be used.

So why now would Colt start putting FA parts back in? Especially when they are so Anal about selling any AR to the general public.

Im calling BS on this one till I see proof.



It's not BS. ATF never prohibited the use of M16 carriers in an AR15, and it's cheaper to to use M16 Bolt carriers than having to make a full and semi one.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 8:31:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 4:04:21 AM EDT
Got the answer I wanted. I'll remove it and be safe rather than sorry. You can all stop arguing now.
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 8:10:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2005 12:56:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mouseomatic:
Got the answer I wanted. I'll remove it and be safe rather than sorry. You can all stop arguing now.



If AK venders don't do it, what makes you feel the need to? Why do people inflict imginary laws on themselves? Like there's not enough of those in real life as is!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:40:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By frick:
"Colt puts FA carriers in its rifles now"

Umm, do you have pictures to prove it?

I was under the assumption that if LE finds there is one MG part in an AR 15, it will be seized and treated as a machine gun.

Colt made it a point YEARS ago to stop putting FA carriers in their guns, originally they just shortened the bottom to where it wouldnt work, then when the screw on adapters came out that restored the bottom to its full length towards the carrier front, they removed the entire bottom portion leaving it looking like a C instead of an O, so even that couldnt be used.

So why now would Colt start putting FA parts back in? Especially when they are so Anal about selling any AR to the general public.

Im calling BS on this one till I see proof.







Um, do a search on the EE for Colts, any new LE Colt made in the last 6 months will have an M16 carrier.

Your "assumption" is BS.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:06:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 6:24:58 PM EDT by frick]
LEO colts are to be sold to, DUHHHHHHH, LEO, Law Enforcement Only, not the general public.

Correct?

So Colt has the legal position of saying that it was never intended for the public if someone sues because their "LEO" gun was seized by the ATF for improper parts.

The above letters as I read them say NOT to put an M16 Carrier in your AR15, and my "SP1" carbine, came with a "cut" carrier, from the factory.

So, is it worth the "Ass Exam" and a seizure of your gun to have a FA carrier in it? Especially if some dedicated tech gets your gun to double tap with some soft primered ammo, and a disconnector missing, and suddenly, its YOU that own the machine gun?

This isnt about finding laws that arent there, its about whether having that M16 part in the gun is worth the hassle, if they do decide to make you a test case.



And an SP1(Left Center) carrier is NOT an M16 carrier, if you look at the above pic (Left Center), its almost like the M16 carrier (Left Top), but the forward part of the bottom is milled back enough so that it cant contact the FA parts, the one on the bottom left, is the same as my later pre ban colt HBAR, that has the entire bottom portion entirely removed, so the "bolt on" carrier conversion wont work.

Now the picture above, again, to mention it, is from the legal page here that I linked to, not an assumption, but what the nice folks here have thought necessary to keep your ass out of the can, choose to disregard their advice, but thats your business.

Oh, the "assumption" is that Colt is putting M16 carriers in guns intended for the general public, not LEO.........I didnt assume we are all "LE" here.......and have to follow the laws, or at least attempt to, and BTW, when I do get my LEO carbine, if it has an M16 carrier in it, I would probably take it out, as well as do a check for any other M16 parts, I'm not saving my ass for "Bubba" to use.....

And BTW, I'm old enough to remember when every third guy leaving a gun show, had a legal, 40 dollar, "Su Press On" drop in auto sear in his pocket, so I do understand how having enough parts makes an AR "easily convertible", thats why the laws about M16 parts have come about for those too young to understand.



Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:37:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By frick:
LEO colts are to be sold to, DUHHHHHHH, LEO, Law Enforcement Only, not the general public.

Correct?

www.ar15.com/content/legal/ar15-m16parts/boltCarrier.gif

Tinfoil hat must be a little too tight.

That was the case........when the AWB was in place. Now it's over with.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:39:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 6:40:09 PM EDT by JaketheSnake]
.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:59:39 PM EDT
LEO Colts aren't necessarily FA rifles. Don't backwards engineer the wording to prove a point. LEO Rifles were LEO because of Bayo Lugs and other bad business, for the most part. FA is something different and exists separately.

FWIW- read the rules again- the FA bolt carriers are not made specifically for Machineguns. They were invented before the lighter semi auto carriers. Semi Auto carriers are made exclusively for Semi Autos, not the other way around.

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:14:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 7:14:46 PM EDT by JaketheSnake]
Its as simple as this, with your m16 bolt in the AR, with one pull of the trigger how many rounds go off?

The answer is one. And that is all you will get. Colt knows that, the BATF knows that, the rest of the AR15.com site knows that......then there is you.

Sell your m16 bolt out of your Colt AR on the EE when you get it. see how fast it goes.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 9:51:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 10:00:27 AM EDT by frick]
The assault weapons ban has absolutely nothing to do with the class 3 regulations, and never has, hence the warning here about having M16 parts in a semi AR15, and no, its not about how many shots the gun fires when you pull the trigger, its about how many the BATFE can make it shoot in their testing, and whether using M16 parts can be construed on your part to be an attempt to manufacture a new machine gun.

Hey, this is America, feel free to do as you wish, and pay the price if you're wrong. Feel free to think what you wish, and go about clueless to the reality of the situation. I go into gun shops all the time, and see chinese SKS's being sold with bayonets attached, and granted, its illegal, and Ive never known anybody to be prosecuted for it, but that doesnt mean that the birds not going to shit on your head someday when you pass an agent with a chip on his shoulder, who decides you need to be a test case, to help his career.

But I'll ask you this, do you want to take your AR with the M16 parts in it, down to the Federal Building and ask the ATF agent in charge if your M16 parts are kosher? Because I'll go with you with my "Safe" AR and do the same with no hesitation.........

Just because YOU are willing to take a chance, dont feel that you need to advise a clueless Newb that its OK to do, just because you think your balls, and your lawyer, are bigger and better than what the ATF has.



Link Posted: 9/20/2005 10:15:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 10:18:26 AM EDT by JosephR]

Originally Posted By frick:
... dont feel that you need to advise a clueless Newb that its OK to do, ...



Ok. I won't. Don't read what we write anymore then.

There are ATF letters stating that it's ok.

Don't confuse my attempt at explaining the rules in English with the law. I'm explaining it in a way that should shed some light on why it's not illegal and the BATF doesn't consider it to be a MG part. Please don't fucking pretend that I'm trying to pass off what I wrote as written law!

If you want to cower back in your corner and stay away from what you perceive as a gray area, then that's your perogative. Sit and cry for all we care.

READ THE SECOND LETTER POSTED ABOVE. IF INSTALLING THE BOLT CARRIER DOES NOT MAKE THE FUN FIRE FA THEN YOU ARE NOT IN ANY VIOLATION OF THE LAW.

Before you even try, don't read the first page AFTERWARD and ignore what he SECOND page says.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 10:57:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 11:02:52 AM EDT by 0100010]

Originally Posted By frick:
LEO colts are to be sold to, DUHHHHHHH, LEO, Law Enforcement Only, not the general public.

Correct?

.......................




Incorrect, the myth that Colt has a policy of not selling to civilians is just that. Colt has never stated that they won't sell LEO weapons to civilians. Colt's letter to dealers that everyone gets upset about simply realigned LEO weapon sales through LEO distributors-it did not prohibit civilians from buying them.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 1:47:34 PM EDT
So, youre volunteering to take your AR with its M16 parts into an ATF office, and ask them to examine your weapon and pronounce it as kosher?

Or would you feel comfortable having an agent on hand if your gun double taps with M16 parts installed?

The letter says that it cant recommend the installation of parts, only that if the part is installed, you may not be in violation of the law if the gun does not fire full auto.

I have also read where the agents have free reign in making a seized gun fire in full auto, and that includes removing other parts from the rifle, to make it do so, even if its unsafe.

Thats why there have been calls for the technical division to videotape the procedures of exactly how and what they do to make a gun fully automatic, so that in court, it can be clearly shown that what they did was unsafe, and dubious in substantiating the charges that are made against a defendant.

Whats clear is this, if you have NO M16 parts in your gun, your safe, if you DO, you MAY be in violation of the law, even if you dont think you are, given the right scenario.

Bravado can become stupidity if you dont stop and think about what you are recommending.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 3:30:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 7:47:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By frick:
So, youre volunteering to take your AR with its M16 parts into an ATF office, and ask them to examine your weapon and pronounce it as kosher?




Yup, I'll walk into any ATF office in the country tomorrow with my Valmet and my Colt 6920 which BOTH HAVE FA CARRIERS FROM THE FACTORY.

You just won't stop, will you? Get over it, a FA carrier is not illegal.
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