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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/6/2006 4:15:25 PM EDT
Hi All,
Which is the absolute best (regardless of cost) 7.62 round for self defense purposes? How about the best "economy" round for the same purpose? Pros/Cons of FMJ, Soft Point, Hollow Point?
thanks!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:26:26 PM EDT
Corbon did or does make some that have a very good reputation.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:28:17 PM EDT
Any round will do. Just buy some Wolf and be happy. What kind of ammo you think all the Iraq killers used on the troops just plain old FMJ .
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:59:12 PM EDT
Sure any round will "do the job," but I want the most accurate round with the best terminal performance for obvious reasons. Why not use the best?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:09:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 5:10:04 PM EDT by Mach1]
Lapua softpoints would be my pick...If you can find them. Expensive, though.


Winchester makes a good softpoint as well.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:53:11 PM EDT
When I had a 5.45 and was interested in this topic I assumed that the HP wolf was superior, and I was told that Barnaul or SandB soft point are better performers. In terms of 762 I go for wolf HP. With a 30 caliber round at ranges you're actually gonna use an AK for in terms of legal self defense, I think it'll do fine without going through (too much).

The problem is that hte russians have SUPER advanced ammo, 'specuially in 545, but we don't get it here.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 5:53:44 PM EDT
ETA: if TAP made a 762 M43 round, I'd buy it regardless of price.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:13:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 7:15:58 PM EDT by --bullseye--]
last I heard, the Wolf HP doesn't expand- it's there just to make people think it does.

I would use straight up FMJ. SHTF situations would probably be the only time I would use my AK for self defense though, so if you want to load up a mag for your own home defense purposes, there are some commercial hunting ammo loads in 7.62x39, but they're like $10 for a box of 20 rds.

ETA: Pros of FMJ- RELIABILITY- If you're gun doesn't feed reliably with FMJ, it's not going to be reliable with anything. Also FMJ will give you the best chance of penetrating light cover in SHTF scenarios.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:17:04 PM EDT
bullsye where do u live in wi?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:22:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By --bullseye--:
last I heard, the Wolf HP doesn't expand- it's there just to make people think it does.

I would use straight up FMJ. SHTF situations would probably be the only time I would use my AK for self defense though, so if you want to load up a mag for your own home defense purposes, there are some commercial hunting ammo loads in 7.62x39, but they're like $10 for a box of 20 rds.

ETA: Pros of FMJ- RELIABILITY- If you're gun doesn't feed reliably with FMJ, it's not going to be reliable with anything. Also FMJ will give you the best chance of penetrating light cover in SHTF scenarios.



I heard that in 545 not in 762.......... is it true for the larger round. At the very least it'll yaw, no?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:58:24 PM EDT
Ligament:

Doing a search of the Tactical Forum, I found an entry by Dr. Roberts from 2003, summarizing results of the Lapua round in ballistic gel:

quote...
The Lapua 125 gr JSP proves to offer outstanding terminal performance!
Out of a 16” barrel:
Bare Gelatin: vel=2316 f/s, pen=17.3”, RD=.62”, RL=.43”, RW=122.6 gr
Car Windshield: vel=2323 f/s, pen=14.8”, RD=.60”, RL=.40”, RW=110.6 gr

Performance is similar to the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bonded JSP bullets used in the Federal Tactical loads, with deep penetration, excellent expansion, and good weight retention. Because of the larger permanent cavity and greater bullet mass, the Lapua 125 gr JSP will offer somewhat better performance than the .223 bonded JSP’s. This load will be a good choice for LE use against car windows and should also be outstanding for hunting deer and other similar size game
...close quote

Now, I am certinaly no expert myself, but recognize that Drs. Roberts and Fackler have quite a bit of practical knowledge in this area, having performed umerous research activities and correlated gel testing with live animal shootings under controlled conditions as well as Army field surgical hospital results and autopsies.

What I CAN tell you is that a Finnish gentleman I knew living in our community swore by the 7.62x39 Lapua for deer hunting. He drove up to Wisconsin during the season and would always come back with a fine buck, one shot (typical Finn!). He swore by Lapua, and said this round was popular back in Suomi.

Winchester is a close second (again quoting Dr. Roberts):

quote...
Winchester 123 gr JSP (X76239) in Bare Gel:
vel=2253 f/s, pen=14.4”, rd=0.56”, rw=90.1gr
Pretty much the same results when going through car windshields.
...close quote

From what I understand, the Federal JSP is very similar to Winchester, but I can't find any numerical confirmation.

Lots of folks will tell you FMJ or soft point, it doesn't matter, but that just isn't true when it comes to incapacitation. Temporary crush cavity from a high performing soft point in this caliber is substantial, and will impart WAY more tissue disruption than the non-fragmenting, non-expanding FMJ. Now, when it comes to Wolf or Barnaul, it IS true that there is no difference -- they perform exactly the same in 7.62. (I don't hate Wolf -- it's a hell of a bargain and I shoot it, too. But it's not a top-notch hunting or SD round).

Just as a note on 5.45, the Barnaul FMJ is a better bet than the JHP. The HP doesn't expand, and the FMJ yaws sooner.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:59:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ligament:
Which is the absolute best (regardless of cost) 7.62 round for self defense purposes?



...the one bullet that you shoot the bad guy between the eyes with...

KyARGuy
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:04:44 AM EDT
I use Winchester 123 grain jacketed soft points. They work great on deer and wild hogs.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:10:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
I use Winchester 123 grain jacketed soft points. They work great on deer and wild hogs.



That is my choice for 7.62 SHTF ammo..
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:17:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jicky:

Originally Posted By triburst1:
I use Winchester 123 grain jacketed soft points. They work great on deer and wild hogs.



That is my choice for 7.62 SHTF ammo..



best price?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:48:31 PM EDT
Looks like Lapua or Winchester for me. Where can I find the Lapua? Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:58:35 PM EDT
I have not seen any of the Lapua ammo but Sportsman's Guide does carry the Winchester SP ammo. I usually add a couple of boxes of the SP when I order a bunch of Wolf FMJ from them. I keep a few mags worth of Winchester SP for HD. HTH



Ron
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:19:27 PM EDT
Might want to go with Winchester or roll your own. They dont list soft point for 7.62x39.



www.vihtavuori-lapua.com
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:40:12 PM EDT
Here is some good stufCor-Bonf.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:00:48 PM EDT
I see miway has the soft point at 150 per 200.... kinda steep but I'd get it if you say it feeds well in the AK. I've had exactly one FTFeed in an AK about a year and a half ago and it was cause there was a slightly deformed soft point that hit the end of chamber instead of going in.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:04:09 PM EDT
wow SG destroys that price but no club discount.....
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:05:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 5:07:29 PM EDT by EKLYPSE]
wolf 154 grain soft point hit with a louder thump when shot at a 2 x 4 a 100 yards.

my .02

ETA: helluva exit wound too (on the wood of course)
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:12:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ligament:
Which is the absolute best (regardless of cost) 7.62 round for self defense purposes?


I like the Federal Prem with the Siera 168 gr game king....wait, wrong 7.62.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:13:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SLAPhAPPY1:
bullsye where do u live in wi?



Wausau area
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:57:43 PM EDT
I like the cheapest I can get.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:30:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Originally Posted By --bullseye--:
last I heard, the Wolf HP doesn't expand- it's there just to make people think it does.

I would use straight up FMJ. SHTF situations would probably be the only time I would use my AK for self defense though, so if you want to load up a mag for your own home defense purposes, there are some commercial hunting ammo loads in 7.62x39, but they're like $10 for a box of 20 rds.

ETA: Pros of FMJ- RELIABILITY- If you're gun doesn't feed reliably with FMJ, it's not going to be reliable with anything. Also FMJ will give you the best chance of penetrating light cover in SHTF scenarios.



I heard that in 545 not in 762.......... is it true for the larger round. At the very least it'll yaw, no?


It should yaw, at least some, but I know for a fact it does not expand. I've seen the effects of FMJ and JHP on deer (long stories, not as nefarious as you'd think) and they were identical. The exit wound was virtually the same size as the entrance wound.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 1:21:42 AM EDT
Wolf 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 HP's do not expand. They are not properly engineered to exhibit controlled expansion and they offer no realistic advantage over a FMJ projectile. 7.62x39 bullets with a flat base as opposed to a boat-tail are more lethal and are a better choice for defensive ammo than standard FMJ's. Even so, 7.62x39 is hardly the pinnacle of small arms lethality and wounds much like a .38 Spl, though the flat base bullet improves upon this to a degree. All FMJs will yaw to an extent, some sooner/more/better than others. My testing has shown to my satsifaction that CorBon makes the best defensive 7.62x39 round. It offers excellent and reliable controlled expansion and superior accuracy, which is negligible in most AK's. Another good choice is the 123grn Amax offered by Maine Cartridge. This is also an effective round, though Main Cartridge is slightly better than Ultramax at times, and thats not a compliment. HP's are extremely effective but prone to damage during the rough cycling of the AK. This varies from

weapon to weapon, but AK's generally are rough on bullets. This is why SP's are a valid choice for a defenisve round. While they have a soft exposed lead tip which can be damaged to an extent, it will still perform effectively even if slightly deformed and damaged. A HP can be crushed or deformed to an extent that any terminal advantage would be extinguished. Another option would be to make your own cartridges using current generation HP or SP bullets. A Ballistic Tip would help solve the problem of deformation while preserving accuracy and lethality. For a HD type application the CorBon is the best choice as its velcoity may cause it to break apart as opposed to a slower SP bullet. I advise against the use of a 7.62x39 AK as a HD weapon in any context and it should most certainly be avoided if at all possibilty. The liability is much to great, politically and otherwise. I personally rely on the CorBon, which I keep loaded into 8 30 round magazines in two 4 magazine pouches. I would personally reccomend buying 1 box of the CorBons and manually cycle the rounds through the weapon*at the range* to determine the effect on the HP bullet. If it is relatively unscathed and undamaged, buy enough for a few magazines. If your AK damages the bullet to badly*they are quite vulnerable* any domestic SP should offer excellent performance and a large increase in terminal effectivenss.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:17:01 PM EDT
You can buy Lapua 7.62x39 ammunition from the Lapua online store (note that this is not the "mega" soft point that has been tested on tacticalforums)

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/storeAmmo2.asp?Cartridge=7,62x39&Category=Rifle%20Ammunition

The round that we (or at least I) want is the 125 grain "mega" soft point bullet, which is listed here:

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/techrifleprojectiles.asp

I emailed them about buying the "mega" 125 grain ammunition and got this response:

[response from Lapua]

You may visit our website at www.vihtavuori-lapua.com to see if these
items are listed on the site. If so, then they are available.

Then, you may contact one of our distributors such as:
Shooting Shop (931) 503-0771 or
Graf & Sons (573) 581-2266 to purchase.

You will be able to purchase these products at a much more economical
rate at the distributors.

Thank you.
Jeannie


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:08 PM
To: Jbolda@kaltron.com

Hello Lapua,

I am looking for Lapua 7.62x39 125grain ammunition
(product number 4317237 or 4PL7058) with your
"mega"/Soft Point bullet type.

Is it possible to order this ammunition directly from
your company? I can not find it anywhere in the United
States.

Thank You
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:41:52 PM EDT
ttt
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:04:30 PM EDT
Have you considered reloading, some will surely flame me for this, but I am now (just started) reloading 125 nosler ballistic tips. While technically .308 calibre, crimp them in and you should be fine. They are a match quality round, and I have experienced no accuracy degradation from the smaller diameter, typically giving sub 2 inch groups in my AK's when I can hold it (iron sighted). The larger BT's fragment well and I am dying to try these in some ballistic gellatin (though i've never done anything like that before so it might be awhile while I gear up/motivate myself)

Just a thought, if you know a reloader he might be able to work up a load for you and you could try them out to see how they group in your rifle, their terminal effectiveness is as of yet unproven but that could be fixed pretty fast with a little effort. And they aren't that expensive compared to some of the "premium" loadings out there (though they certainly can't compete with Wolf, Silver bear, etc).
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:13:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ligament:
Looks like Lapua or Winchester for me. Where can I find the Lapua? Thanks.



Finland
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:59:22 PM EDT
I just heard from Lapua Finland and Lapua USA. They both informed me that the 125grain 7.62.39 Mega/Soft Point ammo is discontinued and no longer available. They do have a FMJ version available, however.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:12:03 PM EDT
One that doesn't jam or not go bang.

Pick a round that matches the gun: simple and reliable.

That's my advice!
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 4:53:25 AM EDT
You will find some good testing info here thanks to a fellow called Yoda-Dad.
www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=49;t=000589
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