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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/8/2006 10:45:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 7:28:05 PM EDT by 1BMF]
In the last couple weeks, I put some ideas to paper, and I designed a DIAS for the AK internal platform. It's simple, and would drop right into an AK, that is built from a F/A kit. I designed it off a Romy kit, and using semi-FCG. Right now, it's Safe, and full-auto, not select fire. Requires no weapon modification, and once removed, there is no way to tell if it was ever installed.

I think i've got the design for the select fire version, but am still working on it.

What I want to do with it now, is work with it, to get away from the DIAS state. What i'm saying, is that I dont want it to be considered a machine gun, I want it to be classified the same as "tac-triggers, and hellfire trigger system enhancements" Un-regulated, ATF approved, as a rapid fire device(or whatever the legal name is). I want it to be internal, yet simulate full-automatic fire, while technically being a semi-automatic.

My question is, if/when I submit an example of it to the ATF tech. branch, IF they classify it as a machine gun still(what I built) would they be able to prosecute me for having an un-regulated machine gun? I dont have an FFL/Manufacturing license to produce machine guns, so i'm wondering if I can accomplish my goal(hell, i'm halfway there) and submit all my designs/examples/documents of what I built, would I be able to be charged with anything?

Because if I am, I'll stop work on it.

Also, as for the DIAS; I havent actually built one. I studied the design of the AK, clearances etc. And came up with a working design, that due to the physics of the guns action, will not fail.

Anyone know?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:49:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:57:46 PM EDT
dig a hole and hide in it, thats the only thing that will give you a chance at this point
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 11:09:54 PM EDT
Guys, I havent built anything yet. Just designed it on my computer. I dont even have my AK anymore either. I havent made anything. I'm saying, IF I can take what I have, and modify it into simulating f/a but be technically a s/a, but the ATF still considers it a machine gun, will I be able to be charged with anything, since this is a totally new product?

I think i'll send a letter to the ATF and see what they say. I'm confident I could build this thing and stay within the confines of the law.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:58:02 AM EDT
if you pull and hold down the trigger does it keep shooting?

If so it is a full auto, and illegal.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:43:44 AM EDT

Are you working on a trigger "reset" device...something that resets the trigger while pressure is still being applied by your finger? If you aren't resetting it yourself by removing pressure from the trigger it's probably considered one pull, and thus FA.



Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:18:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mykrowyre:
Are you working on a trigger "reset" device...something that resets the trigger while pressure is still being applied by your finger? If you aren't resetting it yourself by removing pressure from the trigger it's probably considered one pull, and thus FA.






Exactly!

Thats what i'm trying to do, but I dont see how it would be considered f/a. Because ideally, it'd reset the trigger, and if I keep pressure, I will shoot another round, and so on and so on. But, if I shoot one round, and release pressure, it will reset and stay there, not just keep firing. I guess it'd be a internal rapid-firing assist.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:26:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1BMF:

Exactly!

Thats what i'm trying to do, but I dont see how it would be considered f/a. Because ideally, it'd reset the trigger, and if I keep pressure, I will shoot another round, and so on and so on. But, if I shoot one round, and release pressure, it will reset and stay there, not just keep firing. I guess it'd be a internal rapid-firing assist.




You just described the exact function of a MG.. What you are planning is illegal, you can bet you ass on it.. If the shoestring is illegal, with the string, only 1 shot is fired for pull of the trigger, and it's still illegal. Anything you put inside your gun to modify the function of the weapon, and end up with automatic fire is a machine gun..
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:33:50 AM EDT
The shoestring is different, it now becomes the trigger. What i'm trying to make is something that with the action of the gun, resets the trigger. It would still fire one shot per trigger pull, it would just do it really fast with the help of this device. I'm going to at least develope it on paper and submit it in drawings, and a written description of how it would operate.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:04:06 AM EDT
the problem is that our overlords at the BATF have decided that anything that allows you to shoot more than one shot with one trigger pull effort is a machinegun, and thus is too dangerous for us peons to own.

bumpfire devices are allowed as you are actually pulling the trigger yourself.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:28:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 7:28:29 AM EDT by 1BMF]
Yes, I'm working to getting to the point of rapid fire, yet a single shot per pull. More thrust per squeeze, if you will lol

Also, when I have a professional looking copy of the DIAS plans, I will post that. It is simple, and I think everyone should have the knoweladge to do so....if needed someday.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:48:57 AM EDT
David_Hineline is soo right...
STOP before proceeding...What you think is legal and what BATFE sees as legal are two different things..
BATFE will always win no matter how logical your thinking and you will probly end up getting ASS raped in jail and your family will pay a toll
Talk to a patents lawyer....Yes expensive but safer than "I thought it was legal".
If you got a product that proves legal and effective then you will recomp you money..
Or how about patenting it and selling the plans for a SMALL fee...


Link Posted: 2/9/2006 8:01:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By uxo2:
David_Hineline is soo right...
STOP before proceeding...What you think is legal and what BATFE sees as legal are two different things..
BATFE will always win no matter how logical your thinking and you will probly end up getting ASS raped in jail and your family will pay a toll
Talk to a patents lawyer....Yes expensive but safer than "I thought it was legal".
If you got a product that proves legal and effective then you will recomp you money..
Or how about patenting it and selling the plans for a SMALL fee...





This thread wasnt to argue legallities, I want to know how to submit something to the ATF for inspection so they can declare it legal or not. Thats how things are done, I was asking because I dont know if i have to draw it and explain it, before making a working model, without a license.

I'm not doing this to make money, I doubt people would want to buy useless information. I'm doing it to have fun, and invent a new rapid fire device that works, because all the ones in the past didnt.

And to help the AK community, because if I got something working good, and legal, a ton more people would get an AK. Producers would make more/import more, and life would be good for us in the AK world.

Also, if MG's ever become legal again to register, having a DIAS will allow them to make it auto when wanted, and keep semi- so they wont have to deal with all the restrictions of a machine gun.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 8:36:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1BMF:

Originally Posted By uxo2:
David_Hineline is soo right...
STOP before proceeding...What you think is legal and what BATFE sees as legal are two different things..
BATFE will always win no matter how logical your thinking and you will probly end up getting ASS raped in jail and your family will pay a toll
Talk to a patents lawyer....Yes expensive but safer than "I thought it was legal".
If you got a product that proves legal and effective then you will recomp you money..
Or how about patenting it and selling the plans for a SMALL fee...





This thread wasnt to argue legallities, I want to know how to submit something to the ATF for inspection so they can declare it legal or not. Thats how things are done, I was asking because I dont know if i have to draw it and explain it, before making a working model, without a license.

I'm not doing this to make money, I doubt people would want to buy useless information. I'm doing it to have fun, and invent a new rapid fire device that works, because all the ones in the past didnt.

And to help the AK community, because if I got something working good, and legal, a ton more people would get an AK. Producers would make more/import more, and life would be good for us in the AK world.

Also, if MG's ever become legal again to register, having a DIAS will allow them to make it auto when wanted, and keep semi- so they wont have to deal with all the restrictions of a machine gun.



ya itd be good for us until some asshole takes it and ends up killing themselves or someone else, then there will be worse bans than current....

imagine if Schumer or Hillary saw a bump fire video and showed it publically? people would go nuts over it..
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 8:38:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dieter122:

Originally Posted By 1BMF:

Originally Posted By uxo2:
David_Hineline is soo right...
STOP before proceeding...What you think is legal and what BATFE sees as legal are two different things..
BATFE will always win no matter how logical your thinking and you will probly end up getting ASS raped in jail and your family will pay a toll
Talk to a patents lawyer....Yes expensive but safer than "I thought it was legal".
If you got a product that proves legal and effective then you will recomp you money..
Or how about patenting it and selling the plans for a SMALL fee...





This thread wasnt to argue legallities, I want to know how to submit something to the ATF for inspection so they can declare it legal or not. Thats how things are done, I was asking because I dont know if i have to draw it and explain it, before making a working model, without a license.

I'm not doing this to make money, I doubt people would want to buy useless information. I'm doing it to have fun, and invent a new rapid fire device that works, because all the ones in the past didnt.

And to help the AK community, because if I got something working good, and legal, a ton more people would get an AK. Producers would make more/import more, and life would be good for us in the AK world.

Also, if MG's ever become legal again to register, having a DIAS will allow them to make it auto when wanted, and keep semi- so they wont have to deal with all the restrictions of a machine gun.



ya itd be good for us until some asshole takes it and ends up killing themselves or someone else, then there will be worse bans than current....

imagine if Schumer or Hillary saw a bump fire video and showed it publically? people would go nuts over it..



Im sure they have, there are hundreds of them on the internet. We need to fight this, not worry about some idiot.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:18:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1BMF:
Yes, I'm working to getting to the point of rapid fire, yet a single shot per pull. More thrust per squeeze, if you will lol

Also, when I have a professional looking copy of the DIAS plans, I will post that. It is simple, and I think everyone should have the knoweladge to do so....if needed someday.



Might want to talk to a C2/C3 manufacturer, one of them may be able to help you. Get your hands on a hellfire or a tac-trigger so you can study the design and determine based on that what's legal. Your best bet, assuming your design's merits are realized, would be to sell it to a C2/C3 manufacturer and let them manufacture it in exchange for royalties. Nothing illegal about creating a design/blueprints and then patenting it, just don't go about making a working prototype (as in a prototype that will fit into a gun and alter its' function). It also may be worthwhile to at least go over the design principles with a gunsmith to ensure that your device won't cause any unsafe conditions (runaway firing, firing out of battery, slam-firing, etc). I did read a thread in this section that may be of some help to you, some guy has a Krinkov that is firing one shot when the trigger is pulled and another shot when the trigger is released. There's an ATF letter in the thread that may be meaningful to you. Hope this helps If you could conceivably design a trigger group that causes this effect, without permanent alteration of the weapon (no drilling extra holes or anything like that) that doesn't cause unsafe shooting conditions (out of battery, slam firing, runaway firing) and you can get it approved by ATF, then you might have yourself a product. You'd want to talk to a manufacturer about the approval process.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:32:20 AM EDT
You could obtain a license that would allow you to legally build you DIAS. However there would be no point because once designed there would be no legal market for your device. If you had designed it before 1986 then there would have been a market.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:15:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 10:22:28 AM EDT by tapeo1]
.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:21:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 10:21:48 AM EDT by tapeo1]
It would be interesting to see your plans when you finish them.

As long as you haven't or don't build it, there is nothing illegal about designing something on your computer. For Christ's sake, there's probably hundreds of books out there that show how to convert a SA to a FA. The books themselves completely legal to own but the actual conversion of your SA to FA is not. I believe a diagram/design is protected by the 1st amendment. Is the Anarchist Cookbook illegal? Is the book "Eco-Defense" illegal? Answer is "NO".
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:06:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tapeo1:
It would be interesting to see your plans when you finish them.

As long as you haven't or don't build it, there is nothing illegal about designing something on your computer. For Christ's sake, there's probably hundreds of books out there that show how to convert a SA to a FA. The books themselves completely legal to own but the actual conversion of your SA to FA is not. I believe a diagram/design is protected by the 1st amendment. Is the Anarchist Cookbook illegal? Is the book "Eco-Defense" illegal? Answer is "NO".



+1, I'm glad somebody finally mentioned this
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:08:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tapeo1:
It would be interesting to see your plans when you finish them.

As long as you haven't or don't build it, there is nothing illegal about designing something on your computer. For Christ's sake, there's probably hundreds of books out there that show how to convert a SA to a FA. The books themselves completely legal to own but the actual conversion of your SA to FA is not. I believe a diagram/design is protected by the 1st amendment. Is the Anarchist Cookbook illegal? Is the book "Eco-Defense" illegal? Answer is "NO".



Yes, and I will post them when I get a good copy done. Maybe a C2/C3 can make one from the plans.


Also, yes, I saw the Krink thread and read the ATF letter. I plan on submitting my DIAS to the ATF anyways, just to see what they say . Never know, in confusion...hey a guy can wish.

Yes, i'm going to study other designs that are on the market and see how I can encorporate their functions into what I have now.

As for the DIAS I designed, It will not pose as any safety factor to the person or weapon, it's pretty much a stand-alone mechanism within the gun that uses the AK action to render it F/A. Sounds complicated, but its rather simple.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:22:32 AM EDT
1BMF,

If and when you post your diagram, you may want to add some sort of disclaimer... "for entertainment purposes only"..."do not build this devise"... etc, etc.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:23:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tapeo1:
1BMF,

If and when you post your diagram, you may want to add some sort of disclaimer... "for entertainment purposes only"..."do not build this devise"... etc, etc.



Of course, good idea.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:53:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:36:14 PM EDT
I beleive trigger reset devices are specifically mentioned in law as illeagal, but I could very well be wrong.

You could also do it with a tube running to a small gas piston behind the trigger and connected to the gas block....I have a paintball gun that work that way...shoots awfull fast!
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 2:27:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
I beleive trigger reset devices are specifically mentioned in law as illeagal, but I could very well be wrong.

You could also do it with a tube running to a small gas piston behind the trigger and connected to the gas block....I have a paintball gun that work that way...shoots awfull fast!



A reactive trigger is what that is called, i'm trying to build something similar, but purely mechanical. Your paintball gun requires CO2
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:02:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 6:03:33 AM EDT by SelectFire]
Don't build it or you may see one of these up close.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:27:51 PM EDT
Update:

Well, I finished the design for my follow-up shot enhancement device. It is just on paper right now, but I have a design based on the action of the gun, that theoretically will allow almost instant follow up shots on an AK.

As of now, it requires zero receiver modification to operate.

It's action is still theoretical, but I spent a long time studying the actions taken by all the moving parts in order when the rifle is fired, and I believe my design will work.

The best part is, it does not effect trigger pull. Smooth light trigger pulls will be untouched. I'm not going to say anything else until I receive ATF approval....or denial.

If it is approved as still being semi-auto, I will build a test weapon. If it is deemed a full auto conversion, I will release the plans for licenses dealers. But I doubt the latter, because I got my hands on some full auto conversion manuals for ideas, and I knew what to stay away from.

I will be drafting my letter, and refining my plans/explanations and submit them to the ATF tech branch in the next week or two-I'm a full time student so I have been working on this when I have free time.

~1BMF
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:53:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SelectFire:
Don't build it or you may see one of these up close.
img293.imageshack.us/img293/558/us4264qz.jpg



Well, you know the saying...if you build it, they will come
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:59:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1BMF:
Update:

Well, I finished the design for my follow-up shot enhancement device. It is just on paper right now, but I have a design based on the action of the gun, that theoretically will allow almost instant follow up shots on an AK.

As of now, it requires zero receiver modification to operate.

It's action is still theoretical, but I spent a long time studying the actions taken by all the moving parts in order when the rifle is fired, and I believe my design will work.

The best part is, it does not effect trigger pull. Smooth light trigger pulls will be untouched. I'm not going to say anything else until I receive ATF approval....or denial.

If it is approved as still being semi-auto, I will build a test weapon. If it is deemed a full auto conversion, I will release the plans for licenses dealers. But I doubt the latter, because I got my hands on some full auto conversion manuals for ideas, and I knew what to stay away from.

I will be drafting my letter, and refining my plans/explanations and submit them to the ATF tech branch in the next week or two-I'm a full time student so I have been working on this when I have free time.

~1BMF



Sounds like you have a good start, make sure to research all the necessary steps for getting your device/idea patented, no matter what happens. Even if you don't get to put your idea to use, someone else might do so in the future. What are you majoring in ? I'm sure a lot of guys here think you're crazy for even thinking/talking about this, but I think your kind of creative thinking is a good thing and it's the only way weapons technology is going to progress. People have been conditioned to believe firearms ideas in general only have a chance if they're designed by committee. They've forgotten about Mikhal Kalashnikov, I'm assuming you know that story pretty well. He didn't do so bad, especially for someone with only a 6th grade education . For that matter, Bill Ruger actually got his start trying to design military firearms on his own, but the military wasn't interested, so later on he started his own company and the rest is history. Good luck and keep us informed
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:07:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By 1BMF:
Update:

Well, I finished the design for my follow-up shot enhancement device. It is just on paper right now, but I have a design based on the action of the gun, that theoretically will allow almost instant follow up shots on an AK.

As of now, it requires zero receiver modification to operate.

It's action is still theoretical, but I spent a long time studying the actions taken by all the moving parts in order when the rifle is fired, and I believe my design will work.

The best part is, it does not effect trigger pull. Smooth light trigger pulls will be untouched. I'm not going to say anything else until I receive ATF approval....or denial.

If it is approved as still being semi-auto, I will build a test weapon. If it is deemed a full auto conversion, I will release the plans for licenses dealers. But I doubt the latter, because I got my hands on some full auto conversion manuals for ideas, and I knew what to stay away from.

I will be drafting my letter, and refining my plans/explanations and submit them to the ATF tech branch in the next week or two-I'm a full time student so I have been working on this when I have free time.

~1BMF



Sounds like you have a good start, make sure to research all the necessary steps for getting your device/idea patented, no matter what happens. Even if you don't get to put your idea to use, someone else might do so in the future. What are you majoring in ? I'm sure a lot of guys here think you're crazy for even thinking/talking about this, but I think your kind of creative thinking is a good thing and it's the only way weapons technology is going to progress. People have been conditioned to believe firearms ideas in general only have a chance if they're designed by committee. They've forgotten about Mikhal Kalashnikov, I'm assuming you know that story pretty well. He didn't do so bad, especially for someone with only a 6th grade education . For that matter, Bill Ruger actually got his start trying to design military firearms on his own, but the military wasn't interested, so later on he started his own company and the rest is history. Good luck and keep us informed



LOL, I'm a business major-I just love AK47's, other guns, and the Marine Corps.

I'm a tinkerer, always tweakings cars, paintball guns, anything with an engine or that shoots something. Yes, I know the story of Mikhal, and the beginning of the legendary AK platform. Im doing this because soo many guys want a select-fire AK, but cant get them. I guess i'm in the same class as the guy who invented the AR15 lightning link. Chalk it up to good 'ol America ingenuity.

I figured, what the hell. We ALL want this, nobody has come out with a working model so i'm working on something. It might go nowhere, it might be pretty kickass. It's still in the early stages to really say right now.

I'm also starting a school sanctioned gun club. Need 12 guys, to become recognized by the school and receive $$$ So to advertise I created a facebook group (UCF -for those who want to join its called Gun Lovers) So i've got alot going on.

I've never done something like this project before, it's alot of fun. At the same time, it's kind of intimidating taking on something like this. Hence, why I got on here to ask people know if it was a good idea to do so. I've put the DIAS away for now, not really spending time on it. Ive got the DIAS design finished, but it's not a good idea for me to be messing with something already classified as a machine gun, so I put that away until I have the legal go ahead.

Will keep updating as things happen.

~1BMF
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:06:43 PM EDT
Whatever happened with this?
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:32:17 PM EDT
I'm still working on it. Ive got multiple designs for this that im getting together so I can send them all at once to the ATF.

It'll be summertime before it'll be tested, mid-summer actually. (I'm going to Quantico for 6 weeks of OCS this summer)

Other things that will be coming out this summer are are new folding stocks (will count as US parts) and a bunch of other goodies I have in the works.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:54:25 PM EDT
You're a busy bee!
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:26:29 PM EDT
Ya, lots of fun stuff will happen this summer.


Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:54:13 PM EDT
My take on this:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a pre-86 transferable full-auto AK, you can do whatever mods you want to it legally. After all, legally, it's already a machinegun, thus any mods making it 'full auto' are a none-issue.

So, find yourself someone who owns a pre-86 registered AK [good luck], who owns no other AKs [to get around the Drop-In issue], and let HIM test this.

If the ATF says it is legal for semis, then you're free and clear anyway. If the ATF says it's a machinegun part, then you're still in the clear, because the firearm you're testing in is already a legal machinegun.

Good luck finding someone who owns a pre-86 full auto AK and is willing to let you mess it up.
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