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Posted: 9/24/2004 4:18:05 PM EST
Can someone let me know the general accuracy of the lower budget AKs versus the US manufactured AKs and converted Saigas? I'm thinking of an AK in 5.56.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 4:35:38 PM EST
My SAR 3 does 2" off the bench.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 4:40:32 PM EST
Well the 5.56 is going to be a bit more inherrently accurate than the 5.45 or the 7.62 based on the projectile. The cheaper guns will, on average, shoot larger group than the more expensive versions. But every now and then, you see a SAR-3 that can out shoot a .223 VEPR.

It comes down to luck of the draw but to have a better chance of getting an accurate one, go with a .223 VEPR.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 6:38:57 PM EST
How accurate are the Saigas? I'm interested; its $160 for a Saiga and not too much more for a pistol grip and a bigger magwell. How much do the VEPRs usually run?
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 6:47:27 PM EST
I'm interested in this also. Don't mean to hijiack, but I do a lot of plinking and shoot a lot of paper with my AR and have been looking for an AK just for added fun. With paper, half the fun to me is hitting where I'm aiming. Are the US mfg. and converted guns that much more accurate? I have been finding myself going to ORF more and more........is it worth the extra money??
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:00:23 AM EST
+1
I would certainly hope so. I am personally more for a modified Saiga for budget reasons, because I assume they are more accurate since they are built specifically for hunting.
Another thing is that I am pretty much a brand new shooter; I took rifle and shotgun at scout camp, and I shot about 100 rounds through a crappy range Glock 19 once, but besides that I have absolutely no shooting experience. Frankly, I don't know that I would prefer a pistol grip to a traditional hunting stock, since I haven't had much experience with either.

Anyway, keep the responses coming.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:12:43 AM EST
My MAK90 came with the thumbhole stock. It is more comfortable than the pistol grip guns with those thin crappy pistol grips and short stocks. However I already added a choate dragonov stock with is really comfortable but I do plan on getting a pistol grip soon. I want a ar15 socom stock and a ergo pistol grip. That would be nice and comfortable.

My mak90 shoots the 7.62x39 round and its fairly accurate. I can make 6-7'' groups at 100 yards...but thats on wolf ammo...and to be honest I'm not a very good shot. My grandpa can group it much much much closer. Probably more like 2-3'' groups.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:45:21 AM EST
My VEPR K 223 was not that great. 1-2 inch grps at 25 yds. on a rest. My BM 16 in. AR .got 1/2 in. grps using same ammo. The AK iron sights are awful. I did not bother testing at 100.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:05:56 AM EST


What kind of sights do the VEPR have? Normal AK sights?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:15:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By N3rday:


What kind of sights do the VEPR have? Normal AK sights?


I believe so. Don't see why they wouldn't. Normal AK notch sight in the back and post up front.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 1:05:52 PM EST
Would it improve an AK's accuracy by adding an RSA trigger group? It makes sense to me that it would.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:44:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hatchet36:
Would it improve an AK's accuracy by adding an RSA trigger group? It makes sense to me that it would.


It should. A more consistent trigger break will allow you to focus on being steady instead of wondering where the trigger will break.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:04:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:46:26 PM EST
I've read reports that the rsa trigger group helps a lot.

Blackops_1.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:05:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 7:07:03 PM EST by Jicky]
Ken's gonna kill me!!!!!! That G2 is nice trigger group...So is Red Star....
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:13:59 PM EST
The g2 trigger isn't bad at all. Much nicer than my stock mak90 trigger. And about 200 times better than my buddies wsar-10 trigger...his is nasty.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:19:09 PM EST
My SAM-7s shoots 2 moa and my SAR-1 shoots 3 moa with Wolff and Uly ammo. The Uly stuff seems a bit better.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:37:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By N3rday:
Can someone let me know the general accuracy of the lower budget AKs versus the US manufactured AKs and converted Saigas? I'm thinking of an AK in 5.56.



The converted Saigas are going to be the most accurate...

Then the US-made guns

Then the Romainian models

5.45, 5.56, 7.62x39 (in order from best to worst accuracy in an AK)...

I get around 3MOA with a red-dot at 100yds from my SAR-1 (7.62x39)...

I'd reccommend 5.45x39 orver 5.56mm for an AK, btw...

Mag availability is better, and it's a round designed for the gun...
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 8:26:58 AM EST
This won't fit in with a budget AK but I wanted to share some other ideas to improve accuracy, which everyone one may find helpful for the upperscale AK's (or any other type of rifle). Aside from a better trigger group you can also send you rifle to www.cryocon.org/ and have a cryo accurising process performed on your rifle. Cryocon uses a 3 stage (Tri-lax) cryo process which I recommend as opposed to the companies that do a single or two stage process. What this dose is it relives barrel stress, virtually eliminates bullet walk, and prolongs rifle life. The cryo process in part turns the softer austenite in to the denser martensite in steel there by creating a more uniform grain structure as well as making the barrel mare rigid which helps to improve barrel harmonics by reducing barrel whip. As well after the process when your barrel heats up and it expands it will do so evenly at the same rate through out the length of the barrel and cool down evenly as well, this if I remember correctly helps with bullet walk. I recommend reading the info on the Cryocon website for a more in depth explanation, hope this helps.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 9:04:25 AM EST
5.56 is the most accurate of the available calibres. With SAR's accuracy is a MIXED BAG regardless of calibre, same calibre same factory some of the rifles just shoot better than others I have seen an SAR3 hit consistantly on a 12" ringer plate at 300 meters with only a red dot sight. I have an SAR1 with a 3 power Bushnell I can shoot under 6" at 200 meters. I have used someone elses SAR1 and missed every time at that range. Whatever calibre you choose it is a trade off of power for accuracy 5.56 is the most accurate, 7.62 is the most powerful I'd suggest 5.45 its generally cheaper on ammo and offers an agreeable balance of power and accuraccy. They are all easy to control though I strongly suggest fitting a muzzle brake.

Hope it helps,

Matt
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 9:18:23 AM EST
Both my ORF SEAK and INRANGE built 5.45s are 1 inch guns. Its easier to do an inch with barnaul than wolf but both will do it. I've never seen a 5.56 ak shoot less than 3 inches but the only ones ive ever seen were SAR3s.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:31:35 AM EST
I would guess that the SAM-5s from Arsenal Nevada would be a good shooter.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:38:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By AKSU-74:
This won't fit in with a budget AK but I wanted to share some other ideas to improve accuracy, which everyone one may find helpful for the upperscale AK's (or any other type of rifle). Aside from a better trigger group you can also send you rifle to www.cryocon.org/ and have a cryo accurising process performed on your rifle. Cryocon uses a 3 stage (Tri-lax) cryo process which I recommend as opposed to the companies that do a single or two stage process. What this dose is it relives barrel stress, virtually eliminates bullet walk, and prolongs rifle life. The cryo process in part turns the softer austenite in to the denser martensite in steel there by creating a more uniform grain structure as well as making the barrel mare rigid which helps to improve barrel harmonics by reducing barrel whip. As well after the process when your barrel heats up and it expands it will do so evenly at the same rate through out the length of the barrel and cool down evenly as well, this if I remember correctly helps with bullet walk. I recommend reading the info on the Cryocon website for a more in depth explanation, hope this helps.



Just out of curiosity how much does this usually run?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:24:26 AM EST
If I remember right it's $130 and they can do the entire gun, the only thing you'll need to do is remove plast, wood, and springs. I would contact them for current pricing as it has been awile since I last checked with them. Also they offer a 30 day money back guarantee and they are the only ones in the industry that do to the best of my knowlede. Also this is a great process for knives as well as it in creases edge life and will eliminate ant weaknesses/stress in the steel. I think it also helps with ease of resharpining. Oh as a side benifit it will also make cleaning the rifle easier, I suspect that this is do to the tighter grain structure which means that burnt powder etc. would not be able to seep in as deep therefore laying close to the surface. So there a several benifits that this process yields aside from improved accuracy, which I've read improvements from 33% to 70%. Not to long back I read a post where a guy had his Ruger ranch rifle done
and do to the small diameter of the barrels they heat up fast and start stringing their shots pretty badly. He had the process done and it eliminated the virtical stringing problems he was having. Personally I would not recomend doing this to a lesser qulity rifle or just a plinker, the money is better spent on upperscale rifles that one intends to keep.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 3:29:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 3:37:15 PM EST by N3rday]

Whatever calibre you choose it is a trade off of power for accuracy 5.56 is the most accurate, 7.62 is the most powerful


I think not, my friend. From a 16" barrel, XM193 55 gr ball will reliably fragment out to about 100 yards, creating wounds that are equal to or better than those from a typical 7.62x39. Out past 100 yards, however, fragmentation in soft tissue becomes iffy and the 7.62's power is greater than the 5.56.
OTOH, I know nothing of the 5.45's ballistics, though I hear it yaws rather than fragmenting.

I'm an AR nerd, sorry...

Anyway, I will have to look in to the caliber differences, and I would definitely consider 5.45, especially since 5.56 requires modified mags. Thanks for the responses!
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 4:14:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By N3rday:

Whatever calibre you choose it is a trade off of power for accuracy 5.56 is the most accurate, 7.62 is the most powerful


I think not, my friend. From a 16" barrel, XM193 55 gr ball will reliably fragment out to about 100 yards, creating wounds that are equal to or better than those from a typical 7.62x39. Out past 100 yards, however, fragmentation in soft tissue becomes iffy and the 7.62's power is greater than the 5.56.
OTOH, I know nothing of the 5.45's ballistics, though I hear it yaws rather than fragmenting.

I'm an AR nerd, sorry...

Anyway, I will have to look in to the caliber differences, and I would definitely consider 5.45, especially since 5.56 requires modified mags. Thanks for the responses!



OH jesus christ. He said power like muzzle energy not terminal balistics. And he's right. The 123 grain 7.62 has more muzzle energy. Were not talking about what it does when it gets there.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 5:41:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 5:41:44 PM EST by N3rday]
Oh...

Sorry!

I guess I assumed 'power' was stopping power. Whoops!
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 6:24:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By N3rday:
I'm an AR nerd, sorry...



So how many AR's do you have?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 6:43:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By AKSU-74:
This won't fit in with a budget AK but I wanted to share some other ideas to improve accuracy, which everyone one may find helpful for the upperscale AK's (or any other type of rifle). Aside from a better trigger group you can also send you rifle to www.cryocon.org/ and have a cryo accurising process performed on your rifle. Cryocon uses a 3 stage (Tri-lax) cryo process which I recommend as opposed to the companies that do a single or two stage process. What this dose is it relives barrel stress, virtually eliminates bullet walk, and prolongs rifle life. The cryo process in part turns the softer austenite in to the denser martensite in steel there by creating a more uniform grain structure as well as making the barrel mare rigid which helps to improve barrel harmonics by reducing barrel whip. As well after the process when your barrel heats up and it expands it will do so evenly at the same rate through out the length of the barrel and cool down evenly as well, this if I remember correctly helps with bullet walk. I recommend reading the info on the Cryocon website for a more in depth explanation, hope this helps.



Ummm...Can I visit the mother ship?
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 7:29:30 PM EST

I would love to see the 1" and 2" groups you guys are shooting with AKs.

These are one shot groups, right?

Shot at ten feet?

Link Posted: 9/26/2004 7:47:22 PM EST
You can put all kind of money into a SAR-1, but why would you want to? About the only thing worth while is changing out the FCG for one by RSA, to eliminate that finger numbing trigger slap. AK47 varients are made to operate under any and all conditions. Add a Kobra red dot and you can still hit a 12" plate at 250 yds.....after a few shots.

The SAR-1 is a rifle to plink and have fun. If you put money into the SAR-1 to shoot as well as an AR15, you will put more money in than the cost of an AR15.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:12:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By shotgun:

Originally Posted By AKSU-74:
This won't fit in with a budget AK but I wanted to share some other ideas to improve accuracy, which everyone one may find helpful for the upperscale AK's (or any other type of rifle). Aside from a better trigger group you can also send you rifle to www.cryocon.org/ and have a cryo accurising process performed on your rifle. Cryocon uses a 3 stage (Tri-lax) cryo process which I recommend as opposed to the companies that do a single or two stage process. What this dose is it relives barrel stress, virtually eliminates bullet walk, and prolongs rifle life. The cryo process in part turns the softer austenite in to the denser martensite in steel there by creating a more uniform grain structure as well as making the barrel mare rigid which helps to improve barrel harmonics by reducing barrel whip. As well after the process when your barrel heats up and it expands it will do so evenly at the same rate through out the length of the barrel and cool down evenly as well, this if I remember correctly helps with bullet walk. I recommend reading the info on the Cryocon website for a more in depth explanation, hope this helps.



Ummm...Can I visit the mother ship?



If your unsure of the physics regarding this process you can get ahold of cryocon, I could explain it but it would take far to much time.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 10:34:08 PM EST
If you drill someone passed 100 yards where your M-16 or Ar-15 with special load is more powerful
( doubt it, passed 200 maybe passed 300 definitely all give you that ) you will have one hell of a time selling a Cop on self defense. If your shooting passed 200 buy a .308.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:02:43 AM EST
My Inrange 74 and SAR 2 are the most accurate that I personally own. I guess 3" -4" at 100 yards Bench useing Irons sights. I have never seen an AK shoot MOA . Only on the internet. Im talking Irons at 100yds, 5 shots with one throw away. But even still I love the AK for what it is.... A very good rifle. WarDawg
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:08:21 AM EST
The most accurate AK's I've ever owned were my SLR-95's. From a rest using Wolf ammo & a scope they would print honest 2" groups all day.
Tomac
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:43:51 AM EST
I'll post pics of a tight AK group next weekend. I swear you guys either just dont know how to shoot em or need lasik or something.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 5:24:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 12:27:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2004 12:28:42 PM EST by N3rday]

So how many AR's do you have?


None. I'm a minor :(. In fact, I don't own ANY guns and haven't been shooting since Scout camp. All my info is from research and the like.

I do, however, have everything I need to put one together except for a barrel, lower and buttstock. Even got a nice JP free float tube for it :).
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 6:09:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By AKSU-74:

Originally Posted By shotgun:

Originally Posted By AKSU-74:
This won't fit in with a budget AK but I wanted to share some other ideas to improve accuracy, which everyone one may find helpful for the upperscale AK's (or any other type of rifle). Aside from a better trigger group you can also send you rifle to www.cryocon.org/ and have a cryo accurising process performed on your rifle. Cryocon uses a 3 stage (Tri-lax) cryo process which I recommend as opposed to the companies that do a single or two stage process. What this dose is it relives barrel stress, virtually eliminates bullet walk, and prolongs rifle life. The cryo process in part turns the softer austenite in to the denser martensite in steel there by creating a more uniform grain structure as well as making the barrel mare rigid which helps to improve barrel harmonics by reducing barrel whip. As well after the process when your barrel heats up and it expands it will do so evenly at the same rate through out the length of the barrel and cool down evenly as well, this if I remember correctly helps with bullet walk. I recommend reading the info on the Cryocon website for a more in depth explanation, hope this helps.



Ummm...Can I visit the mother ship?



If your unsure of the physics regarding this process you can get ahold of cryocon, I could explain it but it would take far to much time.



I get it. Just messin' with ya.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 8:18:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By shotgun:

Originally Posted By AKSU-74:

Originally Posted By shotgun:

Originally Posted By AKSU-74:
This won't fit in with a budget AK but I wanted to share some other ideas to improve accuracy, which everyone one may find helpful for the upperscale AK's (or any other type of rifle). Aside from a better trigger group you can also send you rifle to www.cryocon.org/ and have a cryo accurising process performed on your rifle. Cryocon uses a 3 stage (Tri-lax) cryo process which I recommend as opposed to the companies that do a single or two stage process. What this dose is it relives barrel stress, virtually eliminates bullet walk, and prolongs rifle life. The cryo process in part turns the softer austenite in to the denser martensite in steel there by creating a more uniform grain structure as well as making the barrel mare rigid which helps to improve barrel harmonics by reducing barrel whip. As well after the process when your barrel heats up and it expands it will do so evenly at the same rate through out the length of the barrel and cool down evenly as well, this if I remember correctly helps with bullet walk. I recommend reading the info on the Cryocon website for a more in depth explanation, hope this helps.



Ummm...Can I visit the mother ship?



If your unsure of the physics regarding this process you can get ahold of cryocon, I could explain it but it would take far to much time.



I get it. Just messin' with ya.



Just messin' right back
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 4:36:15 AM EST
I bought a SAIGA in 7.62x39 and put a POSP 4x24 Scope from KalinkaOptics and I am shooting 4inch groups at 100 yards with Wolf ammo.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 10:31:23 AM EST
One other thing I forgot to metion is after reading an article where the author stated he was getting consecutive 2 to 2 1/2 groups with a Krebs KTR-03S I called Mark Krebs and talked about the KTR-03S rifle, which is semi free floated. According to Mark you can't completley free float an AK style rifle as it will mess up the barrel harmonics but you can semi free float it by bedding the forend I think he said something to the extent of not having the gas tube on so tight but it's been awile so I can't quite remember everything. I would contact Krebs for a better explanation and Mark seems rather knowledgeable when it comes to the physics regarding accuracy. www.krebscustom.com
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