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Posted: 7/10/2004 5:48:31 AM EST
There is prob. a dedicated barrel assembly out there, but I don't know much about AK's and their related stuff.

I was thinking, as one Sunset project, to use a AMD 65 kit from Tapco as a start. It is already a shorter barrel. After sun set, the weight and handguard issue will be gone. Of coarse, remove the forward pistol grip and stock to make a pistol (and get enough parts for the US parts count....that part of the requirment is does not expire...right?)

Just throwing out an idea..... hash away.
Link Posted: 7/10/2004 8:37:35 AM EST
That sounds like a winner to me. Make sure you use a stripped receiver that has never been used to build a rifle.That is a stripped receiver with factory verification.Most all Ak receivers sold are logged as long guns by the manufacturer. Factory verification is critical.
Link Posted: 7/10/2004 3:06:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2004 3:11:29 PM EST by Kaliburz]
Well, I have an AR lower that is papered a pistol. So I have an idea on the requirements. The firm I purchased that from said they papered a bunch pistols.

I've seen the "debate" on weather it had to be a stripped pistol lower vs rifle. And the "experts" say, as long as it's a stripped lower out of the factory, it's good to go. And as long as the 4473(?) (the yellow form), it is declared a pistol and any state forms are filled, one is good to go. The "has to be logged as a pistol reciver" is just rumor....so says the credible sources.

So, Kaliburz's next question is, who sells stripped AK lowers and have sold them as "pistols"?????



For the price of the Tapco kit, about $200, and then the stripped lower, I guess 150-200 (????), one can have an AK pistol (after the ban) cheaper then an AR pistol. Uppers alone are running $425....(model 1's kit is $425....but still).....
Link Posted: 7/17/2004 8:16:42 PM EST
Sounds cool.
Anyone got a pic of one of these bad boys already done?
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 11:20:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/5/2004 11:20:35 AM EST by avengeusa]
i was thinking the same thing

what about a krink kit
Link Posted: 8/5/2004 10:11:50 PM EST
thats waht i would start off with if i were to make one, but it would still require alot of work to do right.
Link Posted: 8/6/2004 1:31:57 PM EST
Try calling Vulcan or Ohio ordinance and get a receiver from them. I bought a few stripped Vulcans from Joeken and looked at the paper work at my dealer who ordered them for me and they came to him as rifle receivers and he has to log them in the same as they were shipped to him as.
Link Posted: 8/6/2004 4:30:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Droog:
Try calling Vulcan or Ohio ordinance and get a receiver from them. I bought a few stripped Vulcans from Joeken and looked at the paper work at my dealer who ordered them for me and they came to him as rifle receivers and he has to log them in the same as they were shipped to him as.



were they built into rifles when you got them?
they shouldnt be rifles in the case that they were stripped.
Link Posted: 8/6/2004 6:04:49 PM EST
No they were stripped bare receivers. but nobody sends anything out papered as a stripped receiver They are either pistols or rifles. Sounds dumb I know but that is what it says on the papers that come to the dealer and he must log them in as they come to him.Now you can build a rifle on a pistol receiver but you cant build a pistol on a rifle receiver That also sounds dumb but it is the law.
Link Posted: 8/7/2004 8:26:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2004 8:30:52 PM EST by Kaliburz]

Originally Posted By Droog:
No they were stripped bare receivers. but nobody sends anything out papered as a stripped receiver They are either pistols or rifles. Sounds dumb I know but that is what it says on the papers that come to the dealer and he must log them in as they come to him.Now you can build a rifle on a pistol receiver but you cant build a pistol on a rifle receiver That also sounds dumb but it is the law.




But, but.......

lets not start this topic again.....(as it has been hashed over tons of times pertaining to AR stripped lowers and pistl building)


Edit-
Sounds funny, but the consesnsu (and word from manufacturers too) is that as long as it's stripped, it's logged out as stripped by the manufacturer. And even though it 'could' be logged in as a rifle, it IS still stripped. And as long as it was stripped from the factory, it's clear to build as a pistol.

You mean the sender/FFL you bought it from didn't even make a note that it was stripped receiver???? Even though it was logged in as a rifle, it should have been noted it was stripped....
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 6:49:14 AM EST
No he logged them in as what it said on the distributers paper work and that was long gun.I know about 10 people with ffls Ill start calling them and see how they handle this and report back.
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 7:08:09 AM EST
Cool...no biggy.

I might do an AK pistol build once the ban expires..... and I was wondering who out there (manufactuer and dealers) will list it as a stripped receiver so that a pistol CAN be built.

Afew have done AR lowers in pistols and reported who they got it from and their experiance, but when it comes to AK's...... I don't see much.
Link Posted: 8/8/2004 8:11:28 AM EST
The reason I think there is not much about it is to get a pistol below the weight limit is about impossible with the ban still on.You could permenently weld a mag to get around the ban but who wants a wants a pistol you cant change mags on. When the ban goes away I bet there will be more out there on this.Im having trouble getting ahold of FFls today the only one I caught at home tells me he has never bought a stripped receiver so dont know.Maybe tonite when people are getting home Ill have better luck.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 7:57:36 PM EST
what about buying a blank or prebent receiver? Couldnt you use that for your pistol build?
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 8:15:23 PM EST
There is a SOT here in Minnesota that is buiding AOW AK pistols, damn things are really stout too
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 2:08:06 AM EST
Yes you could go the do-it yourself route with a blank.I have thought about that many times.Before I do that though I would try to get ahold of Vulcan and see If I can order a papered one from them.It would be alot less work.BTW I got ahold of 2 more FFLs and they told me the few that they got in all came as long guns too,these all came from the same distributer.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 9:05:39 PM EST
It must be the distributer then. Or, the manufactuers are afraid to list them ..... ones for pistols.

Vulcan prob. is one of the ways to go, as they sell that carbon/arminde AR lower as a pistol..... why not the AK

I know nothin about the AK's or how to put one together. I've seen the screw together ones people have done and the rivet ones...... seems easy....

Time will tell...

Link Posted: 8/11/2004 5:58:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/11/2004 6:02:01 AM EST by rickinvegas]

Originally Posted By Droog:
No they were stripped bare receivers. but nobody sends anything out papered as a stripped receiver They are either pistols or rifles. Sounds dumb I know but that is what it says on the papers that come to the dealer and he must log them in as they come to him.Now you can build a rifle on a pistol receiver but you cant build a pistol on a rifle receiver That also sounds dumb but it is the law.



It makes NO difference what your dealer marks on the 4473 or how the receiver is marked. All that has already been done before the receiver is "disposed into commerce" aka sold by the manufacturer.

As soon as a serial number is applied to a receiver, the manufacturer has to report it to the ATF. He reports it as a pistol, shotgun, rifle etc. There is a sub-category in this report that reflects whether or not it is "Barreled". In other words, when you buy a new stripped AK or AR receiver for example, the ATF already knows that it left the factory without a barrel and therefore not complete. Manufacturers are very careful to get this right as there are excise tax ramifications.

The only thing I would worry about is buying an already built pistol or "stripped" receiver from a private party. Even if they tell you it has never been built into a rifle you never really know. Personally, I would never buy an already built AK pistol. If, in such a case, the serial number was reported as a "Barreled" rifle to the ATF, you are screwed.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 9:26:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 9:29:23 AM EST by Kaliburz]


NOTE: Image was found on this site, which orignated from an auction site.


That is what I wish to build as some point.....
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 9:36:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 7:31:58 AM EST by Quarterbore]
A few points here...

The 922(r) import regulations impact SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS ONLY so there is no need for ANY US made parts in an AK pistol!

Now, I got tired of posting the same info over and over again so I posted about as much info as I know here:

quarterbore.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=95

If anybody wants to transfer it here be my guest but this thread like the other 50-or so we have had about this will be gone and my little forums don't get enough visitors that I need to worry...
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:21:48 PM EST
I just ordered the Tapco special with the intention of building as a pistol after the ban, using the AK receiver flats rather than a complete receiver.

I have a couple of AR 80% receivers I have been holding off on completing until after the ban because I would prefer to build as pistols. But I want 7.62X39 caliber. And the cost of the AMD 65 sets is just too attractive, when compared to what it would cost to build AR styled 7.62 pistols.

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:25:30 PM EST
How the hell is anyone going to tell? Is a cop going to see it, and hold you there while someone from ATF runs down to Bushmaster or ORF to see what tax was paid on it? Stupid laws!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:06:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By boeboe:
I just ordered the Tapco special with the intention of building as a pistol after the ban, using the AK receiver flats rather than a complete receiver.

I have a couple of AR 80% receivers I have been holding off on completing until after the ban because I would prefer to build as pistols. But I want 7.62X39 caliber. And the cost of the AMD 65 sets is just too attractive, when compared to what it would cost to build AR styled 7.62 pistols.




I was going to do an AR in 7.62x39. Actually, I ordered the kit, but the supplier sent a 223 kit. I guess I'll just use that and order a 7.62 upper later on. I just want the parts so I can get the thing together come Sept 13 (and the upper is not w/ the lower....stored off location.)




Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
How the hell is anyone going to tell? Is a cop going to see it, and hold you there while someone from ATF runs down to Bushmaster or ORF to see what tax was paid on it? Stupid laws!



Yup, you're right. But having a dose of parinoa is a healthy thing.....
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:02:34 AM EST
The biggest advantage of doing the 4473 as a "Pistol Receiver" and getting a copy is that you have documentation for when someone wan'ts to accuse you of having a SBR. Remember that an AR-15 rifle built and configured as a pistol is a SBR...

Regarding the AR-15 vs AK pistol....

I have been at these forums long enough to have it beat into my head to get one of both... In my case I have the AR-15 pistol built as a bolt action, I have an AMD-65 kit waiting for Sept 14th, and I have a stripped EA-10 lower that my FFL has ordered for a pistol as well.... Perhaps I need to start saying get all three!

I just hope I can find a cheap way to build the AR-10 pistol as that is far more expensive and challanging task (other then the challange of building the AK over an AR) as I have no idea how to do that one then to build as an AR-15 pistol and hope it works enough to get me grandfathered if a new law comes along...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:04:52 PM EST
been talking about this for months on ak files and fal files. having a build party just for this weekend after the ban ends, but taking off monday and tuesday to do prep and welding of my own.

have 4 amd sets, and a bunch of slant brakes to go. same length as a krink, but a bit heavier. standard gas tubes can be shortened by removing some of area just ahead of wood and rewelding front end on, and standard wood used.

building on tapco flats, about 75$ each total cost. no us parts, 'cept the receiver.

rock-on
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:39:21 PM EST
justashooter,

I got your E-mail and replied...

In my case I have 2 AMD 65 kits and 3 PMKMS kits along with three OOW receivers (sounds like I need a couple more huh?). Two of my OOW receivers are on PA state forms as pistols while the third was transfered as a rifle receiver (no state pistol form).

My projects are considerably easier then doing flats but I need to get the rest of the tools I need still as I don't have a press yet. I do have lots of Rivets however due to Patriot of Many's group buy and while I am fasinated by the screw together AKs I really want to try to do them the old fashion way if I can get the time...

I just have a FAL or two that is sitting on the deck first as I already bought those tools!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:51:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 2:52:47 PM EST by binford]
If you use an 80% finished AR lower, to do a pistol build, do you have to do something to registar it after it's built up? Where can I find a 80% finished rec. to buy?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:28:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 7:33:15 PM EST by boeboe]
No federal requirement to register an otherwise legal firearm built from an 80% receiver, might have to wait until after the ban on a semi-auto pistol built from AK or AR stuff, as there is currently a 50 oz. weight limit, due to ban. Some links are:

http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/products.php

http://www.vbd.com/noc/default.asp?

http://www.tanneryshop.com/

KT ordnance are very nice, but sure expensive.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:49:56 PM EST
That image in my opinion would still be considered a "Short Barrel Rifle" or at least "All Other Weapons".

Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:11:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 7:33:19 AM EST by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By Corbic:
That image in my opinion would still be considered a "Short Barrel Rifle" or at least "All Other Weapons".




And in my oppinion it is a pistol!

Would you consider A T/C Contender with a 14-inch barrel a SBR or AOW? They are not and before the crime bill people used to build these all the time! Did you read the info here: quarterbore.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=95?

Good Luck, but this is a pistol... They are not real practical and I know I never built one back before the crime bill as I never thought one would be useful enough to be worth the money. Now that I didn't have the option for 10-years I have an AR-15 pistol built and I am trying to do an AK (AMD-65 as above) plus an AR-10 before some new law makes it impossible to do so in the future!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:50:37 PM EST
Why do you have to take off the forward pistol grip?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:13:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ratfink:
Why do you have to take off the forward pistol grip?



If not you must go through the paperwork for a AOW with the ATF. Tax is only $5 but a pain in the ass for the paperwork.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:23:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By millsusaf:

Originally Posted By Ratfink:
Why do you have to take off the forward pistol grip?



If not you must go through the paperwork for a AOW with the ATF. Tax is only $5 but a pain in the ass for the paperwork.



From what I can recall it's a $200 tax to build, the $5 AOW tax is on transfers.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:30:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Originally Posted By millsusaf:

Originally Posted By Ratfink:
Why do you have to take off the forward pistol grip?



If not you must go through the paperwork for a AOW with the ATF. Tax is only $5 but a pain in the ass for the paperwork.



From what I can recall it's a $200 tax to build, the $5 AOW tax is on transfers.


Yes, but licensed manufacturers can make them tax free, same as with any other NFA weapon.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:35:50 PM EST

If not you must go through the paperwork for a AOW with the ATF. Tax is only $5 but a pain in the ass for the paperwork.



Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's always been my understanding that the $5 "transfer fee" on an AOW (AnyOtherWeapon) is merely the tax impossed to "transfer" an "existing" AOW from one owner (or from the "manufacturer") to another owner.

If my understanding of the law is correct, the "tax" incrued to actually "manufacture" an AOW is the same $200 tax that is imposed on the "manufacture" of an SBR, SBS, or any other NFA weapon.

If I could "make" an AOW for a mere $5 tax, I'd have 'em running out of my ears.

All good . . . . Doug . . . . .
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:22:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Droog:
That sounds like a winner to me. Make sure you use a stripped receiver that has never been used to build a rifle.That is a stripped receiver with factory verification.Most all Ak receivers sold are logged as long guns by the manufacturer. Factory verification is critical.



That brings up the interesting subject of receivers lacking serial numbers, like the Saiga series.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:03:40 PM EST
Wouldn't it be possible to buy the stripped receiver, have it shipped to a local FFL, build it up, "transfer" it to your local manufacturer, have them attach the pistol grip and "make" it an AOW and then pay the $5 tax and "buy" it back from your manufacturer?

I am planning to do an AK pistol build but I want to make it an AOW.

P.S. Hi everyone. This being my first post I just thought I should say HI!
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:07:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By coffeeman:
Wouldn't it be possible to buy the stripped receiver, have it shipped to a local FFL, build it up, "transfer" it to your local manufacturer, have them attach the pistol grip and "make" it an AOW and then pay the $5 tax and "buy" it back from your manufacturer?

I am planning to do an AK pistol build but I want to make it an AOW.

P.S. Hi everyone. This being my first post I just thought I should say HI!



Heck yea.. that is EXACTLY what I would do if I were doing one and My local C3 (M60Howard) said that he would do it for me for a small fee...

Personally, I would just order and pay for the receiver and have it shipped to your NFA dealer as your NFA Dealer obviously has an FFL!
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:17:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Personally, I would just order and pay for the receiver and have it shipped to your NFA dealer as your NFA Dealer obviously has an FFL!



Well, I can't get the receiver as an AOW receiver because OOW won't do that (I have heard they won't even log them as pistol receivers but I have seen the ATF letter saying this does not matter), so I have to go through a manufacturer and not just an FFL because the manufacturer does not have to pay the $200 tax to manufacture it as an AOW but the FFL does.

So, can a manufacturer transfer directly to me (assuming I am in state) or can they only transfer to FFLs? I could just have it shipped to the manufacturer and then have them "convert" it to an AOW and transfer it to me if they can sell direct to me.

OTOH, AOWs were not covered in the AWB, so I could have built that all along AFAIK. That's the only reservation I have is that I'm not really sticking it to the anti-gunners by building a ban-legal gun :/
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:23:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 7:25:22 PM EST by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By coffeeman:

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Personally, I would just order and pay for the receiver and have it shipped to your NFA dealer as your NFA Dealer obviously has an FFL!



Well, I can't get the receiver as an AOW receiver because OOW won't do that (I have heard they won't even log them as pistol receivers but I have seen the ATF letter saying this does not matter), so I have to go through a manufacturer and not just an FFL because the manufacturer does not have to pay the $200 tax to manufacture it as an AOW but the FFL does.

So, can a manufacturer transfer directly to me (assuming I am in state) or can they only transfer to FFLs? I could just have it shipped to the manufacturer and then have them "convert" it to an AOW and transfer it to me if they can sell direct to me.

OTOH, AOWs were not covered in the AWB, so I could have built that all along AFAIK. That's the only reservation I have is that I'm not really sticking it to the anti-gunners by building a ban-legal gun :/



No, my point is that your NFA dealer HAS an FFL!!! Just have them order the Title 1 receiver, register it as an AOW (they register tax free), and sell it to you as an AOW with a $5 tax as opposed to a $200 tax!
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:35:20 PM EST
Ooooh, I think I see, so you are saying that an C3 FFL can transfer it as an AOW without ever having to get a manufacturer to "make" it an AOW? So it comes in to the FFL as a stripped receiver and they put it on the proper ATF form and log it as an AOW?

I'll have to call my local class III dealer tomorrow and talk to them about it. I don't like them as they are overpriced, have terrible customer service, and are just plain sleazy but if I can pay $40 to get this all done as an AOW as opposed to $200 plus a lot of waiting and form filling out then I think it may be worth it.
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