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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/13/2005 12:02:53 PM EDT
I'm sure it's been discussed before, but it's time for a refresher. How accurate is the AK-74 compared to the AK-47 and M-16? What MOA is it?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:10:34 PM EDT
in general everything working as it should and average examples of each with military ball ammo should be about as follows:

ak47/akm= 3-4 moa

ak74= 2moa

m16= 1-2moa

m16/5.56 NATO cartridge is generally accepted as having superior accuracy over the other two. if fed quality match ammo the m16 can get .5 moa. there isn't any match 7.62x39 or 5.45x 39 ammo so they can't really be lumped in.

a few years ago i remember a guy posting that he was in the russian army and just got back from a tour in chechnya. he said that he was able to shoot power lines(with his ak74m) off of poles to kill the electricity from about 50m easily (can't remember if it was open or optical sigths).
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:55:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 11:55:40 AM EDT by jquillen1985]
Anyone have gel tests for the bullet? Is the whole "poison bullet" thing myth or truth?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 12:04:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:
Anyone have gel tests for the bullet? Is the whole "poison bullet" thing myth or truth?



A little of both...the bullet yaws very quickly after striking flesh because it has an Airtip in the top of the bullet.

Ben
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 1:27:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:
Anyone have gel tests for the bullet? Is the whole "poison bullet" thing myth or truth?



A little of both...the bullet yaws very quickly after striking flesh because it has an Airtip in the top of the bullet.

Ben



I've heard two stories: one that the air bubble was designed for the bullet and another that the bubble was a result of the manufacturing process and was just coincidence that it does what it does. Which one is true?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 3:20:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:
Anyone have gel tests for the bullet? Is the whole "poison bullet" thing myth or truth?



A little of both...the bullet yaws very quickly after striking flesh because it has an Airtip in the top of the bullet.

Ben



I've heard two stories: one that the air bubble was designed for the bullet and another that the bubble was a result of the manufacturing process and was just coincidence that it does what it does. Which one is true?


It was designed to have airspace in the tip. The real Russian 7n6 5.45mm is 52 grains and has a mild steel core. When the round hits the target, what causes the tumbling is the mild steel core sliding forward, which offsets the balance. 5.45mm tumbles after 2 3/4 inches of peneration.
With an exit wound of 3.5 - 5 inches across and the wound channel 50% of that size.
It can tumble a 2nd time at 11 1/2 inches of peneration, and total peneration being 20 inches.
It's said that in the last section of the peneration another characteristic is the bullet curves its path at nearly a 90 degree angle.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 3:34:03 PM EDT
Thanks for that info. No1here!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 3:50:00 PM EDT
I'm not that great a rifle shooter and I find my '74 is super accurate right from the shoulder with open sights.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 3:59:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 4:02:23 PM EDT by garr]

I'm not that great a rifle shooter and I find my '74 is super accurate right from the shoulder with open sights.


A big +1, For SHTF aim fast Shoot, Run Shoot type of action the AK 74 is hard to beat, The Ruskies got it right.
My SEAK get around 2MOA using Wolf, It is by far the sweetest shooting AK I have ever fired!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:45:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MusicBach14:
Thanks for that info. No1here!


Welcome, MusicBach14, The Chinese Military did testing of 5.45mm against their own 5.8x42mm and M855 5.56mm. They found the capability of the 5.45mm to be superior of the 3 calibers.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:32:17 PM EDT
Just by looking at the 5.45x39 you can see that its a deadlier round than .223...
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:35:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 5:36:53 PM EDT by ElCamino]

Originally Posted By Robotizing:
Just by looking at the 5.45x39 you can see that its a deadlier round than .223...



Yeah, just like how you can tell by looking at a black rifle that it's deadlier than daddy's deer rifle...

... Back on topic -

I'm almost sold on going with a 5.45 AK, except that ammo and magazine availability seems to be lacking compared to 7.62... Am I imagining things?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:40:26 PM EDT
I think there's a whole slew of you that need to read Fackler.

In ballistic gelatin tests the 5.45mm round acts very much like a "ball" full metal jacket round. The air pocket makes for nice theory, but the reality bares out to be a bit different. BTW, all FMJ rifle bullets will "tumble" or yaw due to sudden deceleration and gyroscopic forces i.e. the heavy ass-end of the bullet wants to point forward when the spin-stabilization slows.

"At the time, it was mistakenly believed that yawing and cavitation of projectiles was of major importance in producing tissue damage. Although Dr. Fackler later showed that projectile fragmentation was the key to producing significant wounding effect, this was unknown to the Soviets when they began development of the new round. This was similarly unknown to the non-Soviet alarmists who feared that they had achieved wounding parity with the 5.56mm M16 round.

Unfortunately, the rigidity of the bullet prevented it from fragmenting and the round soon developed a reputation for being a mediocre stopper. Reports of the 5.45 projectile producing horrific wounds have been repeatedly demonstrated to be false. In his terminal ballistics study using live pig and ballistic gelatin (1984), Fackler was able to demonstrate that the AK-74, even at close range, did no more damage than a handgun round. The only exception was a hit to the liver, which caused heavy damage due to the stiffness of the organ. All other organs and tissue were too flexible to be severely damaged by the temporary stretch effect.

With the 5.45 mm bullet, the tumbling produced a temporary stretch cavity twice, at 100 and 400 mm of depth. This is comparable to modern 7.62x39 ammunition and to tungsten penetrator (non fragmenting) 5.56 ammunition. The average width of a human trunk is 400 mm."


Fragmentation, ladies and gents (55 or 62 gr. NATO 5.56mm) is the key.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:34:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 8:37:36 PM EDT by Jerret]
i personally dont believe that live pig and gelatin nonsense as fact. First a pig is not like a human, obviously, and second the gelatin has way to test how bones, organs, and muscle effects the wound trail.


Fragmentation, ladies and gents (55 or 62 gr. NATO 5.56mm) is the key


I have seen a few things that said that the 5.56 doesnt frament all the time, either.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:00:14 PM EDT
Well, you can pooh-pooh Fackler all you want because "we ain't gettin' attacked by gelatin!" but he is a scientist and used the scientific method and his results proved that within their velocity envelopes the M193 or M855 will reliably fragment. You can believe whatever other old wive's tales you want. I have a fondness for the Kalashnikov rifle that goes well beyond any other type of rifle but the 7.62x39 and 5.45mm are not as lethal as M193 or M855. between 2500 and 2700 fps. And them's the facts.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:23:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 9:27:07 PM EDT by Andreuha]

Originally Posted By advntrjnky:
in general everything working as it should and average examples of each with military ball ammo should be about as follows:

ak47/akm= 3-4 moa

ak74= 2moa

m16= 1-2moa

m16/5.56 NATO cartridge is generally accepted as having superior accuracy over the other two. if fed quality match ammo the m16 can get .5 moa. there isn't any match 7.62x39 or 5.45x 39 ammo so they can't really be lumped in.

a few years ago i remember a guy posting that he was in the russian army and just got back from a tour in chechnya. he said that he was able to shoot power lines(with his ak74m) off of poles to kill the electricity from about 50m easily (can't remember if it was open or optical sigths).



If you mean "RussianKaliber" or whatever he called himself all over the net (Russian-Community sites, Gun sites), he's in no way shape or form military. Photos of him shooting guns, driving tanks, and flying helos are worthless because everyone with a few freind on the 'inside' and a few USD to bribe can get in and play on training grounds/ranges (I have, at least one member here actually posted pics; no big deal).
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:30:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
Unfortunately, the rigidity of the bullet prevented it from fragmenting and the round soon developed a reputation for being a mediocre stopper. Reports of the 5.45 projectile producing horrific wounds have been repeatedly demonstrated to be false. In his terminal ballistics study using live pig and ballistic gelatin (1984), Fackler was able to demonstrate that the AK-74, even at close range, did no more damage than a handgun round. The only exception was a hit to the liver, which caused heavy damage due to the stiffness of the organ. All other organs and tissue were too flexible to be severely damaged by the temporary stretch effect.

With the 5.45 mm bullet, the tumbling produced a temporary stretch cavity twice, at 100 and 400 mm of depth. This is comparable to modern 7.62x39 ammunition and to tungsten penetrator (non fragmenting) 5.56 ammunition. The average width of a human trunk is 400 mm."




I will buy into Facklers research, I think he has done great work. However, I HIGHLY disagree with the statement in red. Also, with the quote in blue, this would also seems to imply that 7.62x39mm and non-fragmenting 5.56x45mm are no more dangerous that a pistol round. I simply do not buy this. Using this logic a COM hit with 7.62 NATO would be no more dangerous than a COM hit with 9mm FMJ.


Fragmentation SHOT PLACEMENT, ladies and gents is the key.


Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:34:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 556A2:

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
Unfortunately, the rigidity of the bullet prevented it from fragmenting and the round soon developed a reputation for being a mediocre stopper. Reports of the 5.45 projectile producing horrific wounds have been repeatedly demonstrated to be false. In his terminal ballistics study using live pig and ballistic gelatin (1984), Fackler was able to demonstrate that the AK-74, even at close range, did no more damage than a handgun round. The only exception was a hit to the liver, which caused heavy damage due to the stiffness of the organ. All other organs and tissue were too flexible to be severely damaged by the temporary stretch effect.

With the 5.45 mm bullet, the tumbling produced a temporary stretch cavity twice, at 100 and 400 mm of depth. This is comparable to modern 7.62x39 ammunition and to tungsten penetrator (non fragmenting) 5.56 ammunition. The average width of a human trunk is 400 mm."




I will buy into Facklers research, I think he has done great work. However, I HIGHLY disagree with the statement in red. Also, with the quote in blue, this would also seems to imply that 7.62x39mm and non-fragmenting 5.56x45mm are no more dangerous that a pistol round. I simply do not buy this. Using this logic a COM hit with 7.62 NATO would be no more dangerous than a COM hit with 9mm FMJ.


Fragmentation SHOT PLACEMENT, ladies and gents is the key.





...and a .50BMG that just 'punches a big hole right through' would be no more than a hot .45ACP which does the same; if anything, the expansion of the .45ACP should make it more 'powerful'.

IMHO, the only thing that can prove or disprove any of these rounds' actual capabilities is a collection and autopsy of folks shot by them - highly unlikely at best.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 12:04:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Andreuha:

Originally Posted By advntrjnky:
in general everything working as it should and average examples of each with military ball ammo should be about as follows:

ak47/akm= 3-4 moa

ak74= 2moa

m16= 1-2moa

m16/5.56 NATO cartridge is generally accepted as having superior accuracy over the other two. if fed quality match ammo the m16 can get .5 moa. there isn't any match 7.62x39 or 5.45x 39 ammo so they can't really be lumped in.

a few years ago i remember a guy posting that he was in the russian army and just got back from a tour in chechnya. he said that he was able to shoot power lines(with his ak74m) off of poles to kill the electricity from about 50m easily (can't remember if it was open or optical sigths).



If you mean "RussianKaliber" or whatever he called himself all over the net (Russian-Community sites, Gun sites), he's in no way shape or form military. Photos of him shooting guns, driving tanks, and flying helos are worthless because everyone with a few freind on the 'inside' and a few USD to bribe can get in and play on training grounds/ranges (I have, at least one member here actually posted pics; no big deal).


No idea who posted they were shooting power lines with their AK-74M during their time in Chechnya. That same line came from the same David M. Fortier article. I got the 5.45x39mm performance characteristics from. It was a SOBR trooper, he said he had used his
AK-74M to shoot down telephone wires, and accuracy of his '74 was not an issue.
The title of the article is "The Right Cartridge for Afghanistan"
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:12:57 PM EDT
+1

Got that issue also sitting in my "throne" basket . . . .
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:41:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
Well, you can pooh-pooh Fackler all you want because "we ain't gettin' attacked by gelatin!" but he is a scientist and used the scientific method and his results proved that within their velocity envelopes the M193 or M855 will reliably fragment. You can believe whatever other old wive's tales you want. I have a fondness for the Kalashnikov rifle that goes well beyond any other type of rifle but the 7.62x39 and 5.45mm are not as lethal as M193 or M855. between 2500 and 2700 fps. And them's the facts.



Did Fackler have actual soviet military 5.45 ammo? Or was he using the stuff we have available on the commercial market.

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:34:15 PM EDT
I hope to have a reasonable measure of 5.45 x 39 accuracy in a few weeks. My buddy has his own shooting range (and he hunts there too). He has the range shut down for three more weeks until the big dove hunt is over in early September. When he opens it back up, I have some Russian 5.45 that I picked up at a gunshow for $5 a box that I am going to try out in my Bulgarian AK74 built on an OOW receiver by ORF. We've got benches, bags, and target capability out to 250 in a pinch - so I'm going to print her out for accuracy off the bench.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:42:31 PM EDT
thanks for clearing up where i read that. still can't remember if i read it in the article or reconstituted online, but at least i remembered a little of correctly. thanks again!
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:41:42 AM EDT
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