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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/25/2005 7:59:26 AM EDT


Earlier in another section I threatened to buy a box of Lapua ammo even though it costs about $0.50 a pop here in Finland - despite the fact it's manufactured here

So here I go. Just got a POSP 4x24V for my Bulgie AK, as well as the Power Custom adjustable trigger etc so the time seemed right.
I did the shooting at 100 meters (109 yards) with pretty decent support for the rifle as pictured.
Mind you, I'm no benchrest shooting enthusiast.

I shot two five round groups with all the ammo I tested. Naturally I forgot half of my handloads home So maybe there will be an update to this test if the results are good.

This is the better of the two Wolf (124gr) groups:

Average velocity was 729 m/s (2392 fps), difference between fastest and slowest 15 m/s (49 fps)

The Lapua groups were in practice identical in terms of size:

Average velocity 701 m/s (2300 fps), difference between fastest and slowest 11 m/s (36 fps) which was more than I expected. (Bullet 124gr FMJ)

Most of my handloads were clearly more accurate than the Wolf ammo but not as goos as the Lapua.
The exception was the load using a Lapua S374 bullet (124gr FMJ .308") and VV N130 powder.
The consistency of the velocities was impressive if I say so myself. The first four rounds were within 1m/s (3 fps), with the fifth one "ruining everything" by being 4 m/s (13 fps) slower than the fastest one Well, not too bad still and the groups were very close to the Lapua factory ammo:

I'm 90% sure that the one on the left is a shooter-induced flyer.

Other shooters have pointed out the same phenomenom with the Wolf ammo. For every 10 shots you get at least two very bad flyers. I recall someone pulled some bullets and found them to be rather inconsistent in size and weight. Also it seems there are differences between batches, I've seen some pretty scary looking Wolf ammo with horrible crimping, ruined case mouths etc

Sometimes you can get lucky with Wolf and have a five shot group without the flyers, but generally shooting for accuracy is very frustrating and pretty pointless using it IMHO and experience.
Here's the already mentioned exception to the rule:

After the "official" ammo test I put my PK-AS back on the gun and shot a five round group planning to sight in the dot sight. I got one of those rare Wolf groups without the flyers. But still, it's about twice as big as the Lapua groups.

I think I'll have to post a couple of new pics in the pic thread
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 4:03:37 PM EDT
Thanks for the report! Very interesting that Lapua wasn't that much more accurate then WOLF! Good handloading also.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 12:09:11 AM EDT
Did you shoot any handloads with the Lapua S405 bullet?
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 7:31:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MusicBach14:
Very interesting that Lapua wasn't that much more accurate then WOLF!



WTF? Did you read some other message and accidentally reply to this or how did you draw that conclusion?
Or are you trying for humor? Irony and such don't work well over the internet, especially without the use of enough suitable smilies...

Well, just to make sure here are my findings again in a nutshell:

1. Wolf: 6-8" groups. Horrible crap, generally no point shooting for accuracy. Good for bump firing and CQB practise.
2. Lapua: sub-2" groups. Great stuff, though expensive. Will show you how accurate your rifle really is.
3. It's possible to handload ammo to rival the Lapua ammo for less money.


JA545: didn't have any S405 around. AFAIK no real difference to S374 as they are more like .309" than .310 or more and the S374 seems to work very well despite being "undersized".
I do have some reloads using a 190gr .312" bullet (the ones I forgot home). I had some very promising results with them earlier, I'll post the results if they work well enough to warrant reporting.
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 3:11:27 AM EDT
The Lapua website shows the S405 as being .311" diameter.
www.lapua.com/components%20for%20centerfire%20rifle%20cartr­idges.htm

I have reloaded .308",.310",and .311" bullets in 110-130 grains weights in 7.62x39mm. I have found that the .308" bullets shoot 6-8 inch 100 yard groups. That .310" bullets cut the group size in half to 3-4" and that .311" bullets shoot 2-3 inch groups.
I have not shot the S405 bullet but my results with other brands of .311" bullets it would be worth testing.
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 6:13:14 AM EDT
Someone here is going to say "Bear ammo makes Lapua"

Good shooting some_finn! My results using Cor-Bon (Lapua Brass, not sure what kind of bullets were used) in the Vepr were about 0.75" groups at 50 yd.
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 8:43:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JA545:
The Lapua website shows the S405 as being .311" diameter.



I know. They are not. At least the ones I measured (a small batch I bought some time ago) were .309-.3095"

Hold on... the bullets used in the Lapua factory ammo I have aka test winners above have .310" bullets, just measured. The box doesn't say which bullet it's supposed to be but I believe S405.



I have found that the .308" bullets shoot 6-8 inch 100 yard groups. That .310" bullets cut the group size in half to 3-4" and that .311" bullets shoot 2-3 inch groups.



Interesting. Were the bullets of similar quality otherwise?
I believed the bullet diameter would make a big difference until last monday when I got the results pictured above so now I'm not sure any more...
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 7:33:02 AM EDT
OK, today I tried the reloads I forgot home on monday.
All had the same PPU (artist formerly known as Prvi Partizan) bullet, a 190gr .312" one originally intended for the .303 British.
I had three loads, measured at 329, 467 and 493 m/s (1079, 1532, 1617 fps).
The slowest one was supposed to be subsonic but in the very hot weather (by Finnish standards) it gained a bit from what I expected.
The groups were not quite as good as the Lapua factory ammo or my handload with Lapua bullets, being about 3" at 100 meters for all the loads. Again I shot two five round groups with each load. This was the best group, shot with the hottest load (pretty close to max with this bullet I think).

I actually remembered to bring a measuring device so I can tell you the exact size of the group, 61mm (2.4"). So pretty nice but not spectacular. Without the bullet on the far right the other four would be a hair under an inch and the three in the middle, well...

I have noticed that in many if not most groups there are three rounds in an extremely tight "sub-group" and then there are two more distant ones that at least double the the size of the group. This seems to happen with all ammo to a degree but with the Wolf the flyers are in a class of their own.
I have several times heard of a theory that because of the structure of the AK bolt, it tends to lock in a couple of slightly different positions, causing these flyers.

Then I did an interesting experiment, I shot a single five round group at 150 meters (164 yards) with the Lapua factory ammo.



62mm = 2.44" = 1.42 MOA
Link Posted: 7/28/2005 1:29:14 PM EDT
Wow you sure are making me feel alot better about all that money I spent on 3000 rounds of Lapua 7.62x39 ammo
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 4:55:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/29/2005 8:39:44 PM EDT
The bullets I have used are made by Sierra,Speer,Hornady,Winchester,and Remington. I have weighed and measured the diameter of a few boxes of 100 bullets from a couple of mfgs. It is pretty much a waste of time as they were all the same weight/diameter in a box of 100 bullets. Most of the time after weighing/measureing 50-60 bullets of a box of 100 with the same readings bullet after bullet I would just give up.
Untill the mid 1990's brass cases were pretty rare here so I pulled the bullets from the cheapest ammo I could buy and seated Hornady soft point bullets. I started this in the late 1980's as soft point ammo was not made but was required by my state's game laws to hunt deer with. Chinese ammo which has steel cases was the cheapest till the Chinese guns/ammo were banned from import here in May,1994. In the late 1990's I did the same with the cheapest ammo imported which was Russian. I noticed that the size of groups increased and the Hornady bullets were all from the same lot of pre production 123 grain soft point bullets that were .311" in diameter. The second batch of ammo I swapped bullets in I noticed that the powder levels in the cases sitting in the loading block were not the same. So I pulled the bullets from 2 brands of Russian ammo and took some measurements. Here are the results.




As you can see both the bullets and powder charges are not very consistant. So I would assume that the results you got with Wolf would be from the same inconsistancies as the Uly and Barual ammo. All the Russian ammo is made to sell as cheaply as possible and the cost of increasing the quality control would price them out of the market.
Once I started dumping the powder in my powder measure and recharging the Russian cases before seating the Hornady bullets accuracy went back to prevoius levels.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:15:44 PM EDT
Great thread!
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 5:14:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By some_finn:

Earlier in another section I threatened to buy a box of Lapua ammo even though it costs about $0.50 a pop here in Finland - despite the fact it's manufactured here



Holy Cow! It costs that much over there. I still have a 1500 rd case that I payed $250 for here in the late '90s, less than 17 cents a round.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 10:49:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dobk:

Holy Cow! It costs that much over there. I still have a 1500 rd case that I payed $250 for here in the late '90s, less than 17 cents a round.



Wolf costs that much here!
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:50:23 PM EDT
Thanks for your report. Confirms all I've heard and read about Lapua and about Finns with rifles. Deadly.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 12:57:26 AM EDT
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