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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/19/2002 6:45:31 PM EDT
You know me and a bud were just running the guidelines on the Chief. There is a minimum mandatory of 5 years on every gun crime in the Federal system (consecutive). If they charge the Chief with 1500 seperate counts of importing a machinegun he'd get a minimum mandatory of 7500 years.

Something to think about.........

-SS
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 7:01:46 PM EDT
Noooobodddddddy knooooooows da truble I seeeeeennnnnnn, nooooooobodddddddyyyyyyy knows ma sorrrrohhhhh!
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 3:40:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 3:45:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2002 3:46:59 AM EDT by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By RotDorn:

...but in today's system become eligible for parole in 6 months!



Like a lot of people, you don't have much clue as to how the Federal System works. There is no parole. You get 40 years, you might get out in 39 if you are good. Most likely though you'll do 40.

The sentences handed out in our court systems today are almost Feudal in nature. I have no problem throwing the book at violent criminals, but frankly a lot of the sentences are ridiculous.


-SS
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 4:40:16 AM EDT
Could you pass the soap?
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 4:43:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 4:45:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2002 4:47:55 AM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 4:50:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 5:38:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2002 5:41:23 AM EDT by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By RotDorn:


Best point I have seen! I hear of people owning FA weapons they shouldn't, and think why? You can never go shoot it, you can't tell anybody you have it. It is just a liability! There is plenty legal stuff out there to have fun with, enjoy it, and stay out of prision!...Your ass will thank you for it!



Hell this was a lot dumber than just owning an illegal machinegun. These guys were owning "REGISTERED" illegal machineguns. I mean hell the government knew they had imported the guns. I'd have more respect for these bozo's if they had at least brought in a container load of illegal guns (I wouldn't buy one from them, but at least I'd categorize them as traditional criminals instead of blockheads).

I can't figure out what they thought they were going to do with all those guns. You want to be a dealer and have 1-2 machineguns around for you to shoot? Fine do it, I doubt anyone would care (even the ATF), but 1500 AKs???? I mean its like they were asking to be arrested.


-SS
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 5:50:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 5:55:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RotDorn:
iirc, they were supposed to be demiling these weren't they? Isn't that what the big hold up was with Progressive Arms, and shipping out the first Krink kits?



I don't know. But if that was their plan it was a stupid one. They brought the guns into the USA on a permit to sale the guns directly to LEO. The permit was not issued for them to set up a demilling factory. And they must have known that at some point the government was going to want to know what happened to all those guns.

-SS
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 6:34:16 AM EDT
From what he told me, all he needed for an import (besides form 6) was a LEO letter saying they wanted a demo. From there he could import lots of what they wanted and give them a demo or even a video tape demo. If they didn't buy some, it didn't matter. He could cut them up for kits, sell them to class 3's or LEO's.

I think Keith didn't know about the bribary and his felon partner. Keith isn't stupid like that. I think the gov. coerrsed the small town cops and his felon partner to say he knew to get the conviction. Its a sad thing all together.

Brick
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 6:52:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 10:25:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 1:38:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2002 1:47:29 PM EDT by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:


"no sir! these were NOT registered (transferrable) machineguns. the guns in question were post may dealer samples."



And your point is? Whether they are transeferable or not the guns were stiil registered as machine guns. The government knew who had them and if the guns were sold, even to LEO, the US GOV had to be notified.



actually, he DID import a containerload. 1500 machineguns take up quite a bit of space, packed 10 to a crate.


I said illegal, as in non-registered guns (like picking up a bunch of de-milled guns in Ecuador and bringing them over in a crate of bananas). At least then they would have had a chance of getting away with it (if they were really discrete). But when you shove it into the face of the ATF and try to play cute with their forms, then you are asking for it. Even worst they took out huge adds in SGN, tried to get permits for 90,000 guns and basically shoved it into the ATF's face. Given all these facts they should have expected to get busted.

Its been obvious from the start that the mags weren't pre-ban, but no one gave a shit as long as the profile was low. Once you shove it in their face though, and start messing with machineguns (the big pet peeve of the ATF) then you are going down.


sell them. it's legal, if done according to federal guidelines/laws.
Sure if you have buyers for them its legal. But its not legal to falsify the import records stating that you have a buyer, when in fact the buyer is bogus.



better tell that to colt. ever see their inventory of select-fire weapons? know how many select-fire ruger mini's are out there? lots.



First of all Colt didn't import any machineguns with a bogus buyer listed on the form. Secondly, Colt actually sells millions of guns so one would expect them to have a lot on hand.




demilling the firearms is perfectly legal...as long as records are kept. a couple guys on ak-47net bought demilled rifles from keith, after paying the full pmds value on the cut up rifles ($800, iirc) back when tim, at progressive arms was selling keith's wares.



Sure its legal if the guns were legally imported or built in the USA. Its not legal to say that you have a buyer for them, when in fact you don't, and then import them just to demill them for parts.

I realize that Progressive had gotten away with it before. But my guess is that Progressive brought in a lot fewer guns at a time and kept a lower profile. Also Progressive made an honest attempt to sale to LEO buyers. I know I remember Progressive used to have a LEO website for LEO sales. I also saw adds in SGN where Progressive advertised machineguns for sale to LEO. Lets face it a big portion of the law is appearance. If Magua had really tried to market to LEO, as in sent out flyers, set up a website, designed a catalog, etc.... and imported fewer guns at a time, then they might well still be in business.

You talked about Colt. Well Colt does all the things I just listed, sends out flyers, has a website, LEO catalog, salesmen, etc....... There is a big difference between actively marketing and just claiming that the guns are for LEO.


I think Keith didn't know about the bribary and his felon partner.


Let's hope this is true.

In any event, the Chief did bring us some good prices and is a nice guy. I'm not trying to dump on him. But I think we need to look at what happened and learn from it. So that we don't end up in the same mess.

-SS


Link Posted: 11/20/2002 5:26:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 5:51:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:

i'll hold my name calling until i speak with keith's father.



Whatever......

I think that you are confusing being a realist with not being idealistic enough. Go over to DU and you will see a lot of idealistic people. How many of them are realists?

In any event, I say they screwed up with the whole approach. You say it was all above board. But the bottom line is that some good people went to jail and AFAIC that's because somebody fucked up.


-SS
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 5:53:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2002 6:09:32 PM EDT by SouthernShark]


Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
keith was not trying to do something illegal.



I didn't say that he was. I said that if he had done an illegal import that he would have had a better chance of not getting caught than his current screwy plan. Heck I'd be willing to bet that about 1/5 of the "new" pistol mags being sold were smuggled into this country. (don't believe it? Well look at how many metric tons of contraband gets into this country every day. Of course new receivers would be quickly detected, but new parts???). Now I'm not advocating that approach and I wouldn't do it (I'm willing just to pay more). But I think its probably smarter than trying to get cute with the paperwork (because if there is ANYTHING the government likes to check its paperwork).


We could chat about this all day, but the bottom line is that he tried it, and went to jail (unfortunately). In my mind that's all the evidence I need.



-SS
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 6:27:58 PM EDT
SS, you sure do seem to be revelling in Keith's misfortune. Like Campy and Brick, I have met the man, talked to him at length on different occassions. I also tend to think his only screw up was getting hooked up with a criminal who held a C2 license. How the hell Keith is getting busted for that, I'm not sure.

IMO he did nothing illegal. As Campy said, all the imports were completely legal and by the book. It appears the question arises on bribes to cops to get the letters requsting demos or sales of guns. Sure, that is wrong but Carni is the one who did that according to the article. Keith seems to be taking the fall because that turd made a deal and Keith refused to roll over on other dealers.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 6:37:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 6:49:56 PM EDT
A poster on AK47.net just posted that Keith turned down a deal they tried to give him. He could have pled to mail fraud with no time in exchange for his stuff, some $3,000,000 worth. Don't know if there is any truth to it or not but it would'nt surprise me if it was ture.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 6:54:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 3:59:24 AM EDT
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