Has there ever been one?  If not, what are the chances we will ever see one?  Since there are .223 variants out there, it seems it would be possible.

will not be happening.  There are .223 AK pistols out there however.
reason being surplus 5.45 is steel core, and everybody is worried the ATF will slap an importation ban on one if its made
this happened to steel core 7.62x39 from China when Olympic Arms made a 7.62x39 pistol because it was interpreted as "armor piercing ammo"

I want to know where the ATF's brain is sometimes, are they just trying to make our lives hard or are they just that retarded

You mean like this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=258199654
They exist, but they are pricy. I sure wish there was a 5.45x39 version of the Draco. You could buy an AK74 kit, chop the barrel,  and have it built on a virgin receiver.

The first rule of 5.45 pistols is you don't talk about 5.45 pistols.

The second rule of 5.45 pistols is you don't talk about 5.45 pistols.

BULLSHIT!

The 5,45 has the same penetrator core as the ss109 or whatever the hell the 5.56 round emulates.  Nothing special and not considered AP by the BATFE.  From their website:

"A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-ammunition.html

Last I checked,^^^ 5,45 was a little smaller than 5.56 and does NOT qualify as AP.

Another retardnet myth flushed down the shitter.  Build and show off your '74 pistol.



If you want something that kicks some serious ass, ask me about my PSL pistol and the two cases of Czech silver tip I have.

You selectively left out part of the statute...

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

As you can see (i) applies in this case and is the problem.
If the BATFE decides to go after 7n6 it will dry up fast and we will be left with only the commercial, more expensive lead core ammo.
Bringing attention to the pistols will only hasten the end of cheap, plentiful 5.45.
5.45 barrels measure around .214 which is less than .22 cal but the bullets are right at .221 to .224 so they are large enough to be AP ammo.

If you think the BATF doesn't know there are a buttload of 5.45 pistols out there already, you're kidding yourself. I've been hearing the same arguments about ammo importation being stopped for at least ten years and it hasn't happened yet. I'm not saying your logic or your interpretation of existing law is wrong, but if they want to do it at this point, they're going to do it. If you want a 5.45 pistol, then buy or build one and stock up on ammo now.

hey people have a legitimate right to be freaked out based on prior ATF experiences, it would be nice to have 5.45 pistols out there though, easy way to convert to krinkov sbr

I thought 86 and up year 7n6 is steel core and everything before that is mild-steel? I read that its hard to get the newer 86 and up 7n6 ammo since its rare.

I think the concerns about N76 getting banned as "handgun ammo" are legit.

However, I think there's been several administration's worth of priorities/culture changes since that time. Sort of like how the Streetsweeper and USAS-12 got declared NFA Destructive Devices, but the Saiga 12ga, which can take 20 or 30 round drum magazines has been effectively ignored for 10 or so years.

The ATF has other priorities, like sending guns to Mexico these days it seems.

I think 5.45 AK pistols will be okay as long as no major gun retailers pick them up, and they remain a boutique item by the smaller AK builders, or as home builds. Should Century or someone else start importing them by the boatload like the 7.62 Dracos, then I'd think future problems with the N76 supply are going to be much more likely.



I would suspect it's simply because Bulgaria or other former E. Block countries are always more likely to surplus their older ammo out first.

So we may see the 86 and up 7n6?

So why were all of the 5.56 Dracos imported?  5.56 is larger than 5,45 and AP ammo is available.

If I had the financial backing, I would market and sell a 5,45 pistol just to shut this shit up.

I believe the issue is with the import of AP ammo that can be used in handguns, not with the import of the handguns themselves.  Since the majority of 5.45 ammo is imported steel core people are worried that the import of that ammo would be outlawed and the only option left would be commercial ammo that is either produced in the US (and therefore more expensive) or commercially made imports without a steel core that would undoubtedly be more expensive than the foreign military surplus stuff you can buy now.

I don't know of any imported 5.56 AP ammo, but maybe I'm wrong.  I've never really looked for it but I can only remember ever seeing US made Lake City US Mil-surp stuff.  I know you can no longer buy imported steel core 7.62x39 ammo and that is a direct result of the production of 7.62x39 pistols.

And now we go back to square one...5,45 is NOT AP ammo.  7,62 is LARGER than .22 making it AP ammo.  Apples and oranges.

The .22 cal part of that law only seems to apply in cases where the jacket of the projectile weighs more than 25% of the total weight of the projectile.  Not in cases where the core is steel.  Part i applies to 5.45 imported surplus ammo.  part ii is not relevant to this discussion.

The core is not entirely steel and will not weigh more than the jacket.  It has a penetrator tip like the 5.56 and a hollow cavity ahead of it.  It's intended to destabilize the bullet when it strikes tissue and not be armor piercing.  Where do you think the idea for the 5.56 came from?  The brass solids I use in my .416 are AP, these are not.

So has anybody else seen the centerfire brochure advertising a 5.45 Draco?

I think you just swayed me to your side.  I've never investigated the make-up of a 5.45 bullet before.  After reading your posts I looked it up and all of the various types of steel core 5.45 ammo have at least some lead in them (I'm not sure about 7n24, but I've never heard of it in the US.).  The common 7n6 ammo has a lead plug in it and then a steel core.  Since the law we are discussing requires that the projectile core be made entirely of the listed alloys, and lead is not listed, then I think you are right.

Of course, the ATF does what the ATF wants to do when it comes to this stuff, and import law is an easy thing to mess with if they decide to go after it.

I wouldn't worry about them.  I'd be more concerned with it disappearing when the middle east gets set on fire and the ruskies decide to side with an adversary.  Buy it cheap, stack it deep.

facts figures and logic have nothing to do with it,the cheap 7.62 steel core wasnt AP either.
build your own or have your parts assembled but I wouldnt wish for a lg manufacturer to dump a bunch of these on the market

Why play with fire - seriously. No good will come from a 5.45 pistol.

I HOPE AND PRAY that a 5.45 AK pistol comes to market.

You two geniuses need to go back to the beginning and actually read the thread again.

Per their definition it was, as is all of the other .30 cal ammo in existence.

I wish I could get a manufacturer to market my PSL pistol and a 5,45 pistol just to prove this bullshit 5,45 AP theory wrong.

During my 29 years and a few months in the Army I don't remember any 5.56 x 45 ammo with this much steel in them.

Holy shit...you are still dragging this shit up?  These are not greater than a freaking .22 caliber!!  What part of that don't you schmucks understand?  Not greater than .22 does NOT EQATE TO AP.

Can we please just let this thread die already? I wish the moderators would ban the "5.45 pistol" discussions like on some of the other forums.

I'm sorry Surly, but you really have no idea what your talking about.....you keep ranting on and on about how the fact that the bullet is under .22 in caliber makes it somehow exempt, have you really read the statute?
I can't believe that you can't grasp it's meaning? It simply states that any bullet larger than .22 caliber DOES NOT EVEN NEED A STEEL CORE, it just needs to have a jacket weighing more than 25% of the bullets total weight. ANY peojectile with a steel core can and probably will be considered AP by the ATF, irregaurdless of caliber. Even a .17 Hornet could be considered AP if it had a steel core. NO WHERE in the statute does it state that a bullet needs to be larger than .22 to be considered AP.

Please people, let this go away!

If you wish this topic would be banned, why are you participating in it?
BTW "irreguardless" makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about, even if you might.

I'll agree on both of those points.

If YOU are afraid to a 5,45 pistol, then don't build one.  I suppose the air pistols that use steel BB's are considered AP as well.

I used to be one of the guys who thought like this, but Surly actually is correct if you read the statute carefully and you understand what the ammo in question is made out of.

The law contains two sections that can be used to determine if ammo is armor piercing.
If the ammo meets the requirements in either one of those sections alone it is considered armor piercing.
If the ammo does not meet the requirements of either section then it is not armor piercing.

Lets break it down by sections.  We'll start with section (ii) of the law since that's what seems to have everyone all worked up.


Section (ii)

• If the ammo is smaller than .22 caliber than section (ii) does not apply. (This is the point Surly keeps making and other people seem to be mis-interpreting)


• There is no other reasonable way to interpret the wording of this section.


• 5.45 ammo is smaller than .22 caliber and therefore section (ii) does not apply to any 5.45x39 ammo regardless of it's construction.

That only leaves section (i).


Section (i)

• Section (i) says the ammo has to have a core made entirely out of one or a combination of specifically listed metals (excluding traces of other metals).  I think everyone can agree on the definition of the word "entirely".


• Lead is not one of the metals listed in section (i)


• All of the 5.45 ammo that people are worried about (7n6 for example) has at least some lead in the core.  The lead is an intended part of the core construction and not just simple "trace" contamination.


• This means that the core contains more than trace amounts of a metal that is not listed in section (i).


• Therefore section (i) does not apply because the core is not made entirely of one or more of the listed metals.

If neither section (i) or (ii) apply to the ammo in question then it is not armor piercing ammo by the definition set out in the law.

The commonly imported 5.45x39 military surplus ammo that everyone is worried about losing access to is therefore not armor piercing, according to US law.

This is the only logical conclusion I could come to after examining all of the relevant information.
however, I have not been able to find sufficient evidence to believe that the career politicians and bureaucrats who will be interpreting and applying this law are capable of coming to logical conclusions.

From the applicable law on the subject....  18 USC section 921: Definitions

MJL, but I'm wrong because they know everything and I don't.  I can remember reading it, but I'm horrible at citing sources.  Thanks for posting what I've read to clarify this for once and for all.  This is why 5.7 ammo is considered AP, though it's sad and pathetic, it's larger than .22.

NOW, the thread can die.

But wait. Let's give the do not speak of 5.45 pistol crew    a chance to respond to the substance of MJL's post. I am warming up my popcorn. Anyone?

OK, I'm back to play devils advocate again. I really hope you are correct, so please don't take me the wrong way,  but so many things can be open to the interpretation of the meaning, so let's go back to the first part of the statute:

•Section (i) says the ammo has to have a core made entirely out of one or a combination of specifically listed metals, excluding traces of other metals.

The key work to look at here is "traces". If you look in the dictionary there is no exact definition of this word, it says a very small amount, what does that exactly mean? To most people that might mean microscopic traces, but to the ATF, or lawmakers that want to get rid of our 2nd amendment rights it might just mean the small amount of lead in the core falls under the definition of "traces".

I hope we never have to find out, and with that I will shut up and leave this alone.

I see your point and I agree that the ATF and lawmakers are good at creative interpretation.  However, the lead in the core of 7n6 ammo is not just mixed in with the steel.  It is formed into a specific shape around the steel and is an integral part of the core design.
By most scientific definitions "trace" means that the element exists in such small amounts that it is near or past the limit of being easily measured, or that it is only detectable through some kind of advanced analysis.  The lead in the core of 7n6 is visible to the naked eye and could be easily weighed on many common small scales or measured in any number of other ways.
It would be very difficult for anyone to legitimately argue that the lead found in the core constitutes the commonly understood meaning of the word "trace" as it applies to to composition of metal objects.

It might be possible to argue that the lead is something other than a part of the core since the inner-most part of the bullet is a steel rod and the lead is wrapped around and in front of the steel.  However, since the law acknowledges that a bullet core can be constructed from a combination of metals (not just alloys) it would seem that by the definition found in the law the lead could still be considered part of the core.  Also, in the case of jacketed bullets, the common meaning of the word "core" is any solid material that is inside the jacket.  This would include a swaged core made up of multiple layers of material.

I agree though that since this isn't something that is ever likely to go before a jury where the government will be forced to defend their interpretations there is a good chance that they could apply whatever definition of "traces" that they want to apply and there isn't much anyone can do about it.  If steel core surplus ammo was banned It would be the sort of thing where someone would have to break the law and become a be a test-case to get it back, and I doubt anyone will volunteer to be the guy who's caught smuggling "armor piercing pistol ammunition" into the country just so a relatively small sub-set of firearms enthusiasts can continue buying cheap ammo for their toys.

I got this far and took it the wrong way...NEXT!

[INPUT CRICKETS CHIRPING HERE]

Agreed. Akwarrrrrdddd..... ... ......  ...   .               .