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Posted: 5/25/2009 8:01:12 PM EST
I'm getting ready to stock up on some 5.45 ammo and found some good deals on Silver Bear 750 rd cases and Russian Surplus corrosive 1080 rd cases. I'm new to the 5.45 round, and com-bloc ammo cartridges in general, and was wondering which would be the better move. Is Silver Bear ammo any good, and what exactly is the downside to using corrosive Russian surplus ammo? I know the second question may reek of Noob, but does it just require more cleaning or are there more serious consequences to using it? Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 5/25/2009 8:33:03 PM EST
In my opinion, buy the corrosive stuff and clean your gun with windex before you take CLP to it. You won't have to worry about any corrosion if you clean your AK well enough. It is great ammo and I have never had any problems with it.
Link Posted: 5/25/2009 9:17:18 PM EST
The corrosive ammo isn't a big deal, just clean your gun normally, maybe put some windex, or hot water, or whatever you think will stop corrosion down the barrel, and you'll be fine. I just use regular bore cleaning stuff, thousands of rounds later, my bore is pristine.

Also, don't buy a 5.45 AK, that's less ammo for me.
Link Posted: 5/26/2009 6:47:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/26/2009 3:23:31 PM EST
I would buy several cases of silver bear for plinking and quite a few tins of milsurp for SHTF. Silver bear is good stuff. Don't worry about the corrosive ammo. Buy a .22 boresnake, a small brush and clean your barrel and chamber after each use. Less than 5 minutes to clean it, but a mess if you shoot and let it sit up.
Link Posted: 5/26/2009 3:29:12 PM EST
Russian mil-surp is great, shoot, clean with 1 part Ballistol and 5 parts boiling water (down barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, and gas tube) then clean as normal. Good shit.
Link Posted: 5/26/2009 9:28:19 PM EST
What exactly is Ballistol? I've heard about it here a few times but have never seen it for sale anywhere. Where can I get it?
Link Posted: 5/27/2009 9:50:33 AM EST
I thought the ammonia neutralized the corrosive salts. Where are the chemists when you need them? It don't matter, I only did that once, before that I used boiling water.
Link Posted: 5/27/2009 4:33:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By MissionMTMan:
I thought the ammonia neutralized the corrosive salts. Where are the chemists when you need them? It don't matter, I only did that once, before that I used boiling water.


Nah, its a myth Im no chemist, but windex has ammonia-D. Ammonia-D and Ammonia do not neutralize KCl (corrosive salts). It actually helps lift the KCl off of the metal so the water can rinse it way. Nothing out there, that does not harm your rifle, will neutralize the KCl completely. Ballistol is really good at inhibiting the corrosive factors of KCL, lifting it away and gives a nice protective layer.

I use corrosionX and clean the rifle normally. With a good layer of corrosionX, i have been able to shoot my rifle and not clean it for a week w/o rust.... Funny thing is that SALT crystals will form lol inside the rifle. I highly recommend most people to use Ballistol though

BTW, ballistol will not neutralize KCl; only some black powder residue (thats not KCl)....
Link Posted: 5/27/2009 4:53:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 4:58:33 PM EST by swmp9jrm]
Originally Posted By MissionMTMan:
Where are the chemists when you need them?


Okay - I AM the chemist. Salts like KCl (and NaCl - table salt) are water soluble. It's the water that dissolves the deposited salts - run enough water through the gun and it'll all be washed away. When I'm done at the range, I dump some Ballistol & water down the barrel just for 'insurance' and run a bore snake through it before I head home. After I get home, I use hot water, and a little soap to help things move along quicker. And then I clean and lube normally.

As far as which to buy, you can buy a good bit more of the surplus for the same money. And it comes in those nice spam cans so it will keep nearly forever!
Link Posted: 5/27/2009 10:25:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 10:26:32 PM EST by Fields_Overseer]
my friend just uses hot water for his tantal. dumps it down the action and barrel, wipes it/runs a dry patch through the barrel, repeat, then clean as normal.

im pretty sure windex has a bit of water in it to desolve the salts so it should work, just more expensive and not as well as pure water.
Link Posted: 5/28/2009 5:35:39 AM EST
Someone here turned me on to this product.....http://gunzilla.us/..I bought the 1.9 oz pump spray and the 16 oz bottle to refill. I haven't used it yet, but my plan each outing is to shoot my corrosive stuff first, followed by 30 rounds of non-corrosive Barnaul, then spray the barrel and chamber with Gunzilla and take it home and clean it normally.
Link Posted: 5/28/2009 6:01:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Someone here turned me on to this product.....http://gunzilla.us/..I bought the 1.9 oz pump spray and the 16 oz bottle to refill. I haven't used it yet, but my plan each outing is to shoot my corrosive stuff first, followed by 30 rounds of non-corrosive Barnaul, then spray the barrel and chamber with Gunzilla and take it home and clean it normally.


Please post a review on how effective it is against 5.45 corrosive ammo. I couldnt find any real science/facts about the stuff. I like how they state that it was "developed for the military". Funny how none of our armed forces are using it It may be a good/great gun cleaner, but i would use WATER alone over this stuff for 5.45 surplus.

Again, there is a difference b/t black powder residue and 5.45 corrosive residue (KCl).
Link Posted: 5/28/2009 11:55:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Someone here turned me on to this product.....http://gunzilla.us/..I bought the 1.9 oz pump spray and the 16 oz bottle to refill. I haven't used it yet, but my plan each outing is to shoot my corrosive stuff first, followed by 30 rounds of non-corrosive Barnaul, then spray the barrel and chamber with Gunzilla and take it home and clean it normally.


Please post a review on how effective it is against 5.45 corrosive ammo. I couldnt find any real science/facts about the stuff. I like how they state that it was "developed for the military". Funny how none of our armed forces are using it It may be a good/great gun cleaner, but i would use WATER alone over this stuff for 5.45 surplus.

Again, there is a difference b/t black powder residue and 5.45 corrosive residue (KCl).


I have to agree with you that besides what they say on the website, the stuff is pretty much unproven on corrosive ammo. I guess my plan would be to still go home and run boiling water through the weapon just to be on the safe side, then clean it normally.

Link Posted: 5/28/2009 12:13:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/28/2009 12:19:09 PM EST by Zhukov]
Link Posted: 5/28/2009 1:20:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Someone here turned me on to this product.....http://gunzilla.us/..I bought the 1.9 oz pump spray and the 16 oz bottle to refill. I haven't used it yet, but my plan each outing is to shoot my corrosive stuff first, followed by 30 rounds of non-corrosive Barnaul, then spray the barrel and chamber with Gunzilla and take it home and clean it normally.


Please post a review on how effective it is against 5.45 corrosive ammo. I couldnt find any real science/facts about the stuff. I like how they state that it was "developed for the military". Funny how none of our armed forces are using it It may be a good/great gun cleaner, but i would use WATER alone over this stuff for 5.45 surplus.

Again, there is a difference b/t black powder residue and 5.45 corrosive residue (KCl).


I have to agree with you that besides what they say on the website, the stuff is pretty much unproven on corrosive ammo. I guess my plan would be to still go home and run boiling water through the weapon just to be on the safe side, then clean it normally.



I would and i bet a few others would really appreciate your field testing of the Gunzilla though
Link Posted: 5/28/2009 3:58:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Someone here turned me on to this product.....http://gunzilla.us/..I bought the 1.9 oz pump spray and the 16 oz bottle to refill. I haven't used it yet, but my plan each outing is to shoot my corrosive stuff first, followed by 30 rounds of non-corrosive Barnaul, then spray the barrel and chamber with Gunzilla and take it home and clean it normally.


Please post a review on how effective it is against 5.45 corrosive ammo. I couldnt find any real science/facts about the stuff. I like how they state that it was "developed for the military". Funny how none of our armed forces are using it It may be a good/great gun cleaner, but i would use WATER alone over this stuff for 5.45 surplus.

Again, there is a difference b/t black powder residue and 5.45 corrosive residue (KCl).


I have to agree with you that besides what they say on the website, the stuff is pretty much unproven on corrosive ammo. I guess my plan would be to still go home and run boiling water through the weapon just to be on the safe side, then clean it normally.



I would and i bet a few others would really appreciate your field testing of the Gunzilla though



I remember someone on this forum removing the bullet and powder from a corrosive 5.45 round, chambering it and firing it close range at a steel plate. He then took a pic of said steel plate after several days and we got to see the corrosion occur. I'm not quite ready to volunteer to do this, but wouldn't it be informative to perform this test on TWO steel plates, then leave one untouched and the other treated with Gunzilla and see what happens?
Link Posted: 5/28/2009 4:39:49 PM EST
Simple little tests are best, imo. My tantal's muzzle brake rust like crazy if it is not cleaned properly and i eventually see corrosion near the gas tube. I treated my rifle w/ hoppes oil, shot a mag thru it, cleaned it w/ Hoppes #9 and oiled it. Conditions were 100% humidity at the range. Rifle displayed alot of corrosion and rust w/in 3 days. Same test, but did not use oil/Hoppes #9 to clean. Rifle displayed alot of corrosion/rust w/in 24hours. Same test, but treated w/ corrosionX before firing, but i did not clean afterwards (did clean bore). 10 days later, it displayed minor rust on the muzzle only. I treat my rifles w/ corrosionX and clean afterwards w/ it = No signs of corrosion YET. Im very happy with my method

I have a Tantal and an AKS-74u that use 5.45 surplus

Try something simple out like that. Just be careful and dont let your rifle rust up
Link Posted: 5/28/2009 4:49:44 PM EST
I wish people would stop saying windex.

One ammonia is not good for aluminum.

Two water in the windex is what is washing away the corrosive salts, not the NH3
Link Posted: 5/29/2009 5:52:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:
Someone here turned me on to this product.....http://gunzilla.us/..I bought the 1.9 oz pump spray and the 16 oz bottle to refill. I haven't used it yet, but my plan each outing is to shoot my corrosive stuff first, followed by 30 rounds of non-corrosive Barnaul, then spray the barrel and chamber with Gunzilla and take it home and clean it normally.


Please post a review on how effective it is against 5.45 corrosive ammo. I couldnt find any real science/facts about the stuff. I like how they state that it was "developed for the military". Funny how none of our armed forces are using it It may be a good/great gun cleaner, but i would use WATER alone over this stuff for 5.45 surplus.

Again, there is a difference b/t black powder residue and 5.45 corrosive residue (KCl).


I have to agree with you that besides what they say on the website, the stuff is pretty much unproven on corrosive ammo. I guess my plan would be to still go home and run boiling water through the weapon just to be on the safe side, then clean it normally.



I would and i bet a few others would really appreciate your field testing of the Gunzilla though



I remember someone on this forum removing the bullet and powder from a corrosive 5.45 round, chambering it and firing it close range at a steel plate. He then took a pic of said steel plate after several days and we got to see the corrosion occur. I'm not quite ready to volunteer to do this, but wouldn't it be informative to perform this test on TWO steel plates, then leave one untouched and the other treated with Gunzilla and see what happens?


I remember that test. I wonder how the Gunzilla would work.

I just boil a pot of water when I get home, rinse everything in the sink and then I do a normal cleaning with CLP and I have yet to see any rust.
Link Posted: 6/2/2009 3:48:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Postal0311:
I wish people would stop saying windex.

One ammonia is not good for aluminum.

Two water in the windex is what is washing away the corrosive salts, not the NH3



What the ammonia (and it is very little) in Windex does do is increase the solubility of the water. This allows the fluid to disolve and hold more of the salt than water alone. In addition, the ammonia breaks the surface tension of the water to allow the fluid to penetrate into all the surfaces where the corrosive residue can lie. Reducing the surface tension is especially good for the narrow diameter of a 5.45 barrel. Heating the water also has the same affect. I do not worry about the ammonia in Windex because the molarity is so low.

FWIW- I use Windex at the range (where they discourage boiling pots of water on the bench) wipe everything dry and then clean with warm water+Balistol at home. After that I do a regular cleaning with CLP before it goes back in the safe.




Link Posted: 6/2/2009 11:57:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2009 11:59:00 AM EST by lambo]
the magazine "small arms review" did a piece on corrosive ammo, they had some interesting results. apparantly hoppes#9 did the trick. but so did plain water. they got surface rust with the water but thats because they didn't do anything else with it, ie. cleaning, and they didn't use hot water. i use super hot water and get ZERO rust even if i don't clean afterwards and let it sit. the really hot water dissapates so fast you wouldn't believe it. here are the results i pulled from a post by user jimcola on theakforum.net

nothing done - corroded
Hoppes #9 - not corroded
wd-40 - not corroded
windex - not corroded, but light surface rust from water
hot water - not corroded, but light surface rust from water
Break Free - corroded
non-corrosive primer then corrosive primer - corroded

Link Posted: 6/2/2009 1:13:50 PM EST
In a Tantal does the corrosive salt get up the gas tube and onto the piston too?
Link Posted: 6/2/2009 5:09:22 PM EST
Yes, in the gas tube and piston and every where else the combustion gas has come into contact with the rifle. I use Ballistol.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:19:51 AM EST
To the folks that are saying they use "hot water," how hot? Boiling?
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 3:46:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2009 4:09:50 AM EST by SOC]
Hoppes No. 9 is formulated for cleaning corrosive military ammunition.

Hoppe's No. 9 MSDS .pdf

Kerosene (General cleaning agent/solvent)
Ethyl alcohol (General cleaning agent/solvent)
Xylene (Solvent, dissolves led)
Amyl Acetate (Source of the famous smell)
Ammonium Carbonate (Solvent, neutralizes corrosive salts and dissolves copper)
Citronella (Perfumery agent and bug repellent)

In use since 1903.
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 4:57:22 AM EST
The guy in this article did some extensive testing with corrosive ammo if anybody's interested.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2006/alittlesalt/index.asp
Link Posted: 6/8/2009 7:13:16 AM EST
I decided to e-mail the guy (Ted Jeo) who wrote this article about the effects of different solvents used in the test. I asked him about Gunzilla. This was his reply:

Gunzilla came out after I did the tests. I do not have any intentions of repeating this test with more solvents at this time. The best way to see if it will remove the corrosive salts is simply to ask if it has water as a solvent in it. Those solvents that had water dissolved the salts. Petroleum only solvents did not do as good a job as those solvents don't dissolve salts.




The Gunzilla website says it's not petroleum based OR water based. It's "made from agriculturally based chemicals".
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:14:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By whatsamattaU:

I remember someone on this forum removing the bullet and powder from a corrosive 5.45 round, chambering it and firing it close range at a steel plate. He then took a pic of said steel plate after several days and we got to see the corrosion occur


Thanks for remembering!
If I run across this Ballistol, I may make another test.





Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:44:44 PM EST
By and large, I think using boiling water causes more problems than it solves. Just clean with some simple green or whatever then oil it up and put it away. No worries.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 4:59:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By JCKnife:
To the folks that are saying they use "hot water," how hot? Boiling?


"Boiling" water would be ideal but is hard (and dangerous) to handle while trying to support a barreld action as well. Personally, I use distilled water (because of my crappy well water) and heat it till it is almost too hot to touch then mix it with 20% Balistol. I then pour and swab a quart of this solution down the bore, down the gas block, trunion and through the gas tube (mine has a plastic handguard but I would be more careful with wood). I then take an old toothbrush and hit the bolt carrier. I then wipe the bolt and bolt face with the solution as well as the exposed surfaces inside and out of the receiver that show any residue + one dry patch throught the bore, gastube and trunion. I let it air dry then wipe everything with a dry towel. I then clean with CLP like normal. It sounds like a lot of extra work but really only adds maybe 15 minutes and it forces me to clean the same day I shoot so a clean and ready rifle always goes back into the safe before I go to sleep.

BTW I do the water+balistol cleaning outdoors or in the garage.

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:48:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By JCKnife:
To the folks that are saying they use "hot water," how hot? Boiling?


I use Ballistol in water when I'm done at the range. When I get home, I just spray my upper down with Fantastic, and then run straight hot water from the tap through it. Then clean and lube normally. I don't see that using water any hotter than hot tap water would be measurably better at dissolving away the salts.
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